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Abuse under the cover of bdsm - 10/4/2005 5:34:19 AM

BeeQueen

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i wondered what ppl think about the lot of hidden abuse that is covered up under bdsm.

ppl forced to do things they do not want, just out of the fear to loose a person (that they have been searching long).
ppl forcing their way on a sub in a non SSC way and telling the sub that this is how bdsm is.
emotional blackmail to force certain action trough.
sexual abuse, financial abuse, mental abuse, and all covered up by some weird rules of Ds

as for me goes, nothing my sub doesnt agree on is forced on him, nothing my sub says is bashed down, nothing my sub begs me for is denyed without good reason ( i d not cut his dick off if hed ask me :p), and i do not ask financial donation when i play with someone - i do it for my fun and the subs fun

i do not step over my limits when i play - even if the sub could take more (no perm marks from beating, no unsafe play, no soddomie, no underaged, no shit play)

nobody ever talks about abuse in a bdsm relation, yet i see lots of it, more so in male dom/fem sub relations. some ppl seem to loose reality totally when it comes to control someone.

where would an sub go that is abused? who would believe them that they are abused?

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RE: Abuse under the cover of bdsm - 10/4/2005 5:43:11 AM

JohnWarren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeeQueen

nobody ever talks about abuse in a bdsm relation, yet i see lots of it, more so in male dom/fem sub relations. some ppl seem to loose reality totally when it comes to control someone.

Have you read SM101 or any of the other major nonfiction books? Have you looked over the notestreams here at CollarMe? Have you been to any of the major social/educational BDSM conventions?

The reason I asked is that what you bring up is a major topic in each of these. In fact, it's pretty hard to spend a lot of time anywhere where BDSM people get together without the topic coming up.

"Nobody?" I hardly think so.

It's complicated by the One True Wayers who hold that anyone who doesn't do BDSM they way they do is, of course, guilty of abuse (or are wannabes... depending on if the others are heavier or lighter than the OTW types.)

As for myself, I'm reluctant to pass judgement on other's relationships. It's a slippery slope. But then, I just may lack the godly vision of whose who know.

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RE: Abuse under the cover of bdsm - 10/4/2005 7:43:20 AM

MstrssPassion

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Just an observation...

So often we hear this excessively used & often misused word ABUSE.

I believe this happens too often because people jump into this & never take the time to fully explore themselves & think that if they couple-up with someone they will 'understand' what is happening to themselves on an internal level.

Self discovery is just that... something we must explore within ourselves. No one is going to flip on that light switch.

Often people will rush out & take a partner, either dominant or submissive & then go into a one sided relationship because they are told that this is the way it works. They will go unfulfilled & eventually come to a conclusion to end the relationship...

Then the pent up misery & resentment comes flooding out. HE/SHE ABUSED ME... HE/SHE WAS TOPPING FROM THE BOTTOM!!!

These allegations will be cried out to the masses. Too often these cries are because the person is not accepting responsibility for their own act of jumping in when they were simply not mentally or emotionally prepared to engage into this type of exchange.

I'm not saying every case is such as this. There are abusers in every walk of life, just like there are classic victims in every walk of life.

Getting a firm grasp on ourselves, our wants, our needs, our true desires is the only way to protect & prevent ourselves from experiencing this backlash. Will it prevent it entirely? No, but it does offer a buffer.

Real abuse is not something anyone can truly protect themselves from. I know, I am a survivor of domestic violence. It was not a long term thing of physical violence... just one instance, but because I knew what to do to protect myself, I got the hell out. I don't care how much you might think you love someone... abuse is a sickness & no amount of love we show will cure it. The abuser must cure themselves & want to be cured. I met many men & women that had also suffered abuse from a partner & a uncomfortably large percentage of them enabled this behavior & sadly I would say most of them will either re-enter the abusive relationship with the same partner or just go out & enter another relationship with another abuser.

To simplify this & say that this lifestyle is being utilized by abusers is not fair. It is just easier to pass off the guilt onto another rather than accept our own mistake for getting in over our heads.

< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 10/4/2005 8:28:25 AM >

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RE: Abuse under the cover of bdsm - 10/4/2005 9:42:46 AM

Foibey

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I think you're right, but the way that you state things like that is always a very fine line to be walking. Whilst there may be a number of relationships (both bdsm and vanilla) which aren't quite abusive so much as they're dysfunctional (each side not really doing their bit to maintain any balance or communicate enough about what their needs are), it's worth staying well clear of victim-blaming. Whilst "brainwashing" etc are rather more involved, exotic and unusual than most people think, one should be careful of placing guilt on people who fail to get out at the first sign of abusive behaviour. I was in a relationship a while back where things went fairly bad (including me being punched at one point by my partner for not doing what she said, but the psychological things that were going on were a rather larger issue) and whilst I'm out now it took me quite a while to be able to do that emotionally or financially speaking. To just blithely talk about "classic victims" fails to put any blame at the feet of abusers, or to recognise that abusers often (consciously or otherwise) seek out relationships with emotionally vulnerable people.

However, I would stress that I don't personally think BDSM lends itself any more towards abusive relationships than vanilla life. Frankly, I feel that the relatively abstracted, conceptualised and openly-discussed nature of the powerplay stuff going on in relationships may even make it harder for abusive activity to go unnoticed. BDSM doesn't provide abusers with a new arsenal of psychological weapons against their victims - abusers still use more or less the same psychological tactics as they do in any relationship. Not that it's not worth discussing abuse within BDSM, but that it's probably not worth too strongly linking the two things when there isn't necessarily any relationship between them.

< Message edited by Foibey -- 10/4/2005 9:49:44 AM >

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RE: Abuse under the cover of bdsm - 10/4/2005 7:04:45 PM

luxus

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I heartily agree with Foibey about not blaming the victims and that abuse occurs in every kind of relationship, but I think also that BeeQueen has a point in that the nature of a D/s relationship can be a handy tool for abusers.

It never occurred to me though, that it might be difficult for a sub to find help if s/he is being abused. If they don't have a support group, who would believe them?

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RE: Abuse under the cover of bdsm - 10/4/2005 8:19:30 PM

mystictryst

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I have a friend who, for many years, was at my throat all the time about how abusive my relationship was... Her thought was that because of past childhood abuse, I was easily manipulated, therefore my Master (permanent partner) used BDSM to continue the abuse. She didn't think I was capable of making an informed decision about what I wanted.

I've witnessed other's that I believed were being abused, but I don't appreciate the ability to give up all of one's rights (hence why I'm submissive and not a slave). Just like my friend can't/doesn't won't understand my relationship.

I don't have much more to add, but sometimes perception makes situations look abusive, even when they are not.

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RE: Abuse under the cover of bdsm - 10/5/2005 3:29:06 AM

Foibey

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I'll just clear up that in the relationship with my ex, she was the sub, and that associating abuse with the dominant-against-submissive image probably ignores that abuse is often something that can occur from any angle. It may be incredibly easy to see a relationship where one ties up and beats the other from time to time and connect that with an assumption that the person on the receiving end is the natural victim if abuse is going to occur, but that kind of thing really isn't how abuse works. I could list a whole host of other psychological things which went on which mirror the things people have suggested abusive dommes might do (one that comes to mind now is that she threatened to stop being my sub if I didn't do something which went rather a long way beyond not just my hard limits but what I could cope with psychologically - and then told me that my refusal meant that I was abusive because she'd done things for me which she found unpleasant).

< Message edited by Foibey -- 10/5/2005 3:39:55 AM >

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RE: Abuse under the cover of bdsm - 10/5/2005 6:26:52 AM

MistressKay

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I recently replied to a submissive who was abused and although my reply may seem harsh I still believe that it applies. I have taken some of that post here as I believe it has some direct relevence to what is being discussed...

I think something here needs to be clarified and is too important to not mention. I am not implying that a victim has caused his/her situation (I am not blaming the victim) but one should be aware that there is only one person who can keep us safe from abuse and that is OURSELVES!

In bdsm humiliation play is a common fantasy for many and what is humiliation for one is verbal abuse to another. We need to clarify our limits up front. The only thing that seperates what we do from abuse is CONSENT.

I hear the world "abused" used often in context to bdsm exploration - and it leaves me to wonder - is it actually abuse or is it a failure to communicate. What we do is only a "consent" away from being abuse. Without the consent it IS abuse - with consent it is BDSM. You need to make sure you establish your boundaries firmly. NO ONE has the right to abuse you - but that starts with you taking responsibility for your own self. It is YOUR responsibility to make sure you keep yourself safe. It is YOUR responsibility to walk (or run) away if a partner ever breaks your trust.

There will be people who take advantage of people and the most common tool mankind has for getting someone to do something is blackmail... if you don't do "this" I wont give you "that" - politicians do it, bosses do it, it is common in EVERY walk of life regardless of the scenario. BDSM doesn't make you immune to these types of people. I don't believe abuse happens any more frequently in bdsm than it does in vanilla life (how many times do we hear of wifes or husbands who felt pressured to do something against their will because their spouse threatened to take away the kids, etc.).

Abuse (of any kind) can and will exist in all walks of life and no lifestyle is immune to this very real threat. What we can do is make sure that we educate people so they can empower themselves to know the difference and to take action to prevent it from happening to them. Abuse can be eliminated by empowering people - we do have a say in our lives.

Consent is not a blanket form given once - but an active decision made every time a command is given or a request is made - to act or not to act remains the choice of each individual. When you give up consent completely then you risk being abused. Submission does not equal blind trust - submissive does not equal unintelligent choices. Even in a TPE relationship the submissive still retains one right - the right to consent - without that right it is abuse.

Life is about choice - choose wisely,

Lady Kay
Ottawa, ON Canada

"All will be rewarded... not all rewards are pleasant!"

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RE: Abuse under the cover of bdsm - 10/6/2005 3:43:16 AM

BeeQueen

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i see a cpl of ppl have replied, but i still miss the some major points.
its ourselfs that have to stand up against abuse ( yeah i totally agree)
but its the dom/me that has to make sure the playrules r clear. no assuming...no quiet mutual agreement till shit hits the fan
i get a bad feeling everytime someone tells a newbie *that is bdsm, it has to hurt, that is bdsm u have to do what i say* - couse its not.
no slave is unworthy (not even the very far from reality ones that bug the hell out of u) - no slave should bee shutted up when he/she wants to speak his/her mind - no slave should suffer a dominant that tells him/her frequently that he / she is worth shit (humiliation is fine - but not if that is all a sub gets)
no master/mistress is too good to give her sub slave a chance to talk to other ppl....go alone to a munch.....grant a sub sub a neutral person to speak with (oh yes....i beelieve that is important ...a non owned sub or another dom ur not friend with - that keeps u dominants in lines).

and as to first reply..im euro...i m ex-head of a big commuity here....and when it came to the topic abuse.....i get mainly same answers as from that first answer here...(oh we hear so much of it..that topic gets odd.....abuse occurs everywhere)......blah....We DO NEED to talk about it.....always....to keep especially the so called dom/mes reminded that its up to them not to start the abuse by total irrelevant threats of the sub/slave. a slave is not an animal (even if he/she wants to bee treaten like one) a sub slave is NOT ur property (even if he/she wants to bee treaten like it) and i really wish ppl would get somewhat real with their expectations (yes especially some of the subs/slaves-i get requests that really make me wanna cry out loud).

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RE: Abuse under the cover of bdsm - 10/21/2005 4:11:24 AM

BeeQueen

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didnt get to reply earlier

i see discussions, but there is never TALK about abuse...subs think its the way bdsm has to bee, and ur reply shows me ur just anohter one of those that think that a book can answer questions

i beelieve that after 10 years, endless workshops and munches i know what i m talkin about
endless nights talkin to subs that have been abused..and dom/mes that have no fuckin clue what severe damage they can inflict on their submissives
and still there is ppl like u that come with the oh its ok they both agree (As for myself, I'm reluctant to pass judgement on other's relationships. It's a slippery slope. But then, I just may lack the godly vision of whose who know. )

its not like that...abuse is abuse.....even if the submissive half agrees to what the dom/me does couse he/she FEARS to get rejected by the dom/me

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RE: Abuse under the cover of bdsm - 10/21/2005 11:15:14 AM

darkinshadows

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quote:

its not like that...abuse is abuse.....even if the submissive half agrees to what the dom/me does couse he/she FEARS to get rejected by the dom/me

Oh please.
Do you really not understand submission at all and do you really view the majority of s-types as that fearful?

You can't save people. You can't help those that don't require help. You can assist and You inform and You can educate - but You can't force feed people into believe what is or isnt abuse. People come to that in their own time and no amount of ranting or raving about it will assist, just makes things less important - like crying wolf. If you are dealing with subs and slaves in this way, personally, I have seen it doesnt help. It burns you out in the longrun as well as not dealing with the issues. Don't try to save people - thats not your 'job' unless they belong to you - let them stand on their own two feet - subs or not...

Peace and Love

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RE: Abuse under the cover of bdsm - 10/21/2005 11:24:36 AM

JustaTop

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Abuse happens,and many times the so called victims invite it.

And bottoms can be just as abusive as tops-but they always seen cast in the victim role,never the other way around.

Why are you so intent on imposing your standards onto people you have no control of?

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RE: Abuse under the cover of bdsm - 10/21/2005 3:14:01 PM

BeachMystress

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There is abuse in every lifestyle. The things you said about the person putting up with things for fear of losing the partner isn't a BDSM phenomena. The person being abused would probably allow themselves to be abused in a plain vanilla relationship. Letting someone abuse you is indicative of problems outside the realm of BDSM.

It is easy to look at someone else's scene or lifestyle and find it abusive. I, at times, have trouble watching a scene where a female seems to not be enjoying the "torture" she is receiving. In those instances, I talk with the female after and ask how she liked the scene. I have never had one tell me it was too much or went too far. The main complaint is that the male didn't go far enough. You don't live inside someones head, and what seems abuse to you might be their greatest fantasy come to life. Never assume the participants in a relationship have the same view of their relationship that you do.

I am not saying there is no abuse in BDSM. I'm saying that BDSM is irrelevant in the phenomena. The parties involved would most likely be abusers and victims even if they never discovered the lifestyle.

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RE: Abuse under the cover of bdsm - 10/21/2005 3:23:55 PM

BeachMystress

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop
Abuse happens,and many times the so called victims invite it.

I think this is an overly simplistic view of things. I do not believe that people in abusive situations "ask for it" or "invite" it. They have been either conditioned via a childhood of abuse to expect that someone who loves them will abuse them or they have a low sense of self worth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop
bottoms can be just as abusive as tops-but they always seen cast in the victim role,never the other way around.

It is more rare for the Top to be abused, but I agree that it does happen. I know a female couple where I find the sub's "vanilla" treatment of the Domme to be beyond rude to the point of abusive.

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