Defining "submissive not only in the bedroom"

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AAkasha -> Defining "submissive not only in the bedroom" (10/4/2005 8:43:21 AM)
I'm curious how people visualize relationships defined as "the man is submissive to the femdom, not only in the bedroom." It's easy to define when I am thinking about a casual or non-committed relationship -- the sub is submissive to the femdom when they are together and when they interact and it defines their interactions. But what about a femdom/male sub relationship that is permanent, live together, and/or marriage? What kinds of things would define that femdom/malesub (not only in the bedroom) relationship that would be different from a traditional male/female relationship or marriage? Obviously the fetish, bdsm, nasty "play" is behind closed doors anyway (not only in the bedroom of course), but what about in public or around friends? Or around the house? For example, I see it as: 1. The woman does more of (or all of) the delegation of chores or housework, she leads the household 2. The woman initiates all sexual or bdsm play (if the man does, he may be vetoed, she cannot be vetoed) -- this does not mean she is UNREASONABLE, mind you. 3. The woman makes final decisions on social activities I guess it's easier for me to define what you DON'T see in a femdom/male sub relationship, but what you may see in a traditional relationship? 1. A man who generally speaks for the wife or over her when out in public. 2. A man who makes the money decisions and she obeys politely 3. A man who initiates sex and holds most of the control regarding when and where 4. A man who expects his wife to cater to him to some degree, to take care of him, to make his life easier 5. A man who makes most of the social decision 6. A man who controls the remote Now, I don't want to trivialize this. Because it's something I really do try to get my head around. When people say "A woman who is a femdom but not only in the bedroom" are they simply referring to a break from "traditional roles" where the man rules the household/money/sex, or are they referring to some other dynamic that can be seen by the way the two behave? Akasha

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Defining "submissive not only in the bedroom" (10/4/2005 12:22:55 PM)
quote: 1. A man who generally speaks for the wife or over her when out in public. 2. A man who makes the money decisions and she obeys politely 3. A man who initiates sex and holds most of the control regarding when and where 4. A man who expects his wife to cater to him to some degree, to take care of him, to make his life easier 5. A man who makes most of the social decision 6. A man who controls the remote Now place A woman in all those areas you've placed a man (except for talking over him, because that's just rude), with some flexibility based on who knows/does what best in terms of managing/doing certain things, as well as initiating sex, and you'll have defined fem dom/male sub relationship in my view. I also agree that anything he initiates/thinks/says may be vetoed within reasonable limits, but she may not be vetoed (that she's been established to be fair/reasonable should go without saying). M

thetammyjo -> RE: Defining "submissive not only in the bedroom" (10/4/2005 1:04:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha I'm curious how people visualize relationships defined as "the man is submissive to the femdom, not only in the bedroom." It's easy to define when I am thinking about a casual or non-committed relationship -- the sub is submissive to the femdom when they are together and when they interact and it defines their interactions. But what about a femdom/male sub relationship that is permanent, live together, and/or marriage? What kinds of things would define that femdom/malesub (not only in the bedroom) relationship that would be different from a traditional male/female relationship or marriage? Obviously the fetish, bdsm, nasty "play" is behind closed doors anyway (not only in the bedroom of course), but what about in public or around friends? Or around the house? For example, I see it as: 1. The woman does more of (or all of) the delegation of chores or housework, she leads the household 2. The woman initiates all sexual or bdsm play (if the man does, he may be vetoed, she cannot be vetoed) -- this does not mean she is UNREASONABLE, mind you. 3. The woman makes final decisions on social activities Akasha Since this is how I live with Fox, I'll give you our life builiding off what you have above. #1 I'll agree with though I'll add that a good slave does not need to be told what to do, he knows what to do when it is time to do it. For example: Fox mows the lawn but he knows when to do it and will most often say "I'm gonna go mow the lawn, Mistress, unless you need me now." #2 is a sort of. I have no problems with Fox starting things, makes me feel sexy and wanted actually. But I can say "no" -- he cannot say "no" instead he must make a good suggestion as to another time. For example: I was horny one morning (read early before 5am) so I went down to his room and got into bed with him. He'd had a rough night that I didn't know about and so he half opened his eyes, smiled at me, yawned and said, "If you let me sleep a few more hours, it will be much better, Mistress." (by the way, he's correct, an awake sex slave is much better than a half asleep one) #3 is also a sort of. I have say over anything either involves only time or only my money. Fox's finances are separate from mine because I and he do not feel that at this time it is wise to combine them. Fox also has friends, family, and a job as well as his own personal interest -- I want him to have these things. The rule is that if he wants to do something or go somewhere, he asks me first and then I can say "yes" or "no". There are other ways we are quite different than a vanilla or egalitarian partnership. Fox does not argue with me about orders or refuse to obey me -- if he has a serious concern or a problem he can bring those up but if I say "fetch this" it will be fetched. Fox only calls me "Mistress" unless he needs some vanilla time for some reason -- my name then becomes his safeword if you will. He does have slow and stop words -- I feel he needs them because I am not a mindreader and I cannot know what is happening to his body (it isn't my physical body). However he needs to be very selective with using them because misuse has serious consequences. He choses clothing to please me. He picks colors that flatter him and me both, and he will decide between two pieces by asking if I like one over the other (either literally asks or thinks about what I'd say). Ultimately though the biggest difference is that he recognizes my authority over his life and his service and that I, in turn, respect him as a person. It has worked for us pretty well for 6 years come this Saturday.

Kasia -> RE: Defining "submissive not only in the bedroom" (10/4/2005 1:53:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha 1. A man who generally speaks for the wife or over her when out in public. 2. A man who makes the money decisions and she obeys politely 3. A man who initiates sex and holds most of the control regarding when and where 4. A man who expects his wife to cater to him to some degree, to take care of him, to make his life easier 5. A man who makes most of the social decision 6. A man who controls the remote First let me tell you, I love your posts AAkasha, and you recently gave me an insight why someone behaves like he does for which I am mostly thankfull. Now, the quote above is perfectly defined traditional marriage, and where I come from that kind is still "normal and proper". I must say that even I and my husband maintain an image of such marriage to outside world - its easier to deal with people that way. Although I do "jump out of the picture" so to say, from time to time [:D] - actually I hate roleplaying of that kind, but I do it for my husbands sake. He would be despised by our countrymen otherwise. What I personally do not understand is term "femdom, but not only in bedroom". I am dominant in every aspect of my life, and everywhere I am - in bedroom and in kitchen, even in living room, on my job and buying groceries, on the street and in the pubs. Recently I had conversation with woman claiming she was submissive - she said she was dominant and assertive in every aspect of her life but submissive in sex. I accept that, but I truly dont understand.

Beatmehrdr -> RE: Defining "submissive not only in the bedroom" (10/4/2005 2:33:55 PM)
quote: ... controls the remote Whip me, beat me, lock me in a cage, put me in chastity for the next decade without a chance of relief, but please, don't take THAT from me!

QueenRah -> RE: Defining "submissive not only in the bedroom" (10/4/2005 5:22:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha ...Obviously the fetish, bdsm, nasty "play" is behind closed doors anyway (not only in the bedroom of course), but what about in public or around friends? Or around the house? For example, I see it as: 1. The woman does more of (or all of) the delegation of chores or housework, she leads the household 2. The woman initiates all sexual or bdsm play (if the man does, he may be vetoed, she cannot be vetoed) -- this does not mean she is UNREASONABLE, mind you. 3. The woman makes final decisions on social activities Akasha Since this is how I live with Fox, I'll give you our life builiding off what you have above. #1 I'll agree with though I'll add that a good slave does not need to be told what to do, he knows what to do when it is time to do it. For example: Fox mows the lawn but he knows when to do it and will most often say "I'm gonna go mow the lawn, Mistress, unless you need me now." #2 is a sort of. I have no problems with Fox starting things, makes me feel sexy and wanted actually. But I can say "no" -- he cannot say "no" instead he must make a good suggestion as to another time. For example: I was horny one morning (read early before 5am) so I went down to his room and got into bed with him. He'd had a rough night that I didn't know about and so he half opened his eyes, smiled at me, yawned and said, "If you let me sleep a few more hours, it will be much better, Mistress." (by the way, he's correct, an awake sex slave is much better than a half asleep one)... Fox does not argue with me about orders or refuse to obey me -- if he has a serious concern or a problem he can bring those up but if I say "fetch this" it will be fetched. He choses clothing to please me. He picks colors that flatter him and me both, and he will decide between two pieces by asking if I like one over the other (either literally asks or thinks about what I'd say). Ultimately though the biggest difference is that he recognizes my authority over his life and his service and that I, in turn, respect him as a person. It has worked for us pretty well for 6 years come this Saturday. How much for a trained Fox clone and how soon can he be delivered? QueenRah

AAkasha -> RE: Defining "submissive not only in the bedroom" (10/4/2005 7:35:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kasia quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha 1. A man who generally speaks for the wife or over her when out in public. 2. A man who makes the money decisions and she obeys politely 3. A man who initiates sex and holds most of the control regarding when and where 4. A man who expects his wife to cater to him to some degree, to take care of him, to make his life easier 5. A man who makes most of the social decision 6. A man who controls the remote First let me tell you, I love your posts AAkasha, and you recently gave me an insight why someone behaves like he does for which I am mostly thankfull. Now, the quote above is perfectly defined traditional marriage, and where I come from that kind is still "normal and proper". I must say that even I and my husband maintain an image of such marriage to outside world - its easier to deal with people that way. Although I do "jump out of the picture" so to say, from time to time [:D] - actually I hate roleplaying of that kind, but I do it for my husbands sake. He would be despised by our countrymen otherwise. What I personally do not understand is term "femdom, but not only in bedroom". I am dominant in every aspect of my life, and everywhere I am - in bedroom and in kitchen, even in living room, on my job and buying groceries, on the street and in the pubs. Recently I had conversation with woman claiming she was submissive - she said she was dominant and assertive in every aspect of her life but submissive in sex. I accept that, but I truly dont understand. Thank you for the kind compliment. Here's where I get confused. In your post and in Thetammyjo's and others...what we seem to agree on is what kind of relationship I have -- but I don't consider it a "femdom 24/7 relationship" or when people talk about "I want a femdom who is not only a femdom sexually" I think "Well, I guess I'm one of those bedroom dommes" -- even though the actual physical place I dominate him isn't always the bedroom, of course. But my rush I get from the fetishy (in action, not always in dress or toys), physical, lustful acts (which often do NOT include orgasms, sexual intercourse, sexual touching but are STILL very intense and what I need to 'get off' in a femdom way) are completely 100% different and separate from any "pleasure" I get from our day to day relationship dynamic. My relationship dynamic with Silver is just what it is -- the way we happen to communciate and operate as a couple. But, it fits every criteria that seem to define a "femdom relationship." Where it gets confusing is that I have had relationships in the past, just as "fetishy" in private but maybe leaning on the social scale a little more toward "typical" in whose in charge, etc. But they all have fell more in the "equal" area than a "traditional" relationship (never a man in charge kind of deal). I just never consider this as having anything to do with my "femdom lust" because that "MODE" for me is exxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxtreme. I don't operate like that 24/7 or my husband would be caged, useless, have no voice, be oppressed and unhappy. But I still am in charge for the most part (although I ask for his opinion in everything), he handles ALL the money (but never tells me no -- he just is better with finances and I'm not dumb enough to try to deal with that when he's proficient in it), I'm more outgoing and tend to make our social plans, and 90% of the time he "asks" me if something is ok (for him to do) whereas I'm more likely to "tell" him what I'm going to do. His personality tends to defer to me for things, and I'm not sure if this is: a. because I am older b. because I make the money in the household c. because he's polite d. because he's extremely devoted to me I can tell you though - it's not because he's "submissive" -- he just isn't, that's not his personality. It's more likely d. I imagine him in a relationship -- for example -- with a "submissive" woman and he'd be just as devoted. However, I think his personality type is one that would prefer not to be running around in charge with a woman who wanted his opinion on everything or his approval. I think he has always sought a woman that knew what she want and went after it -- that might be part of the reason he was interested in me. But I don't consider that submissive. So, that's where it gets confusing, you know? And I also know of other relationships that function with "the woman in charge" more than the guy, and they aren't kinky or would classify themselves as femdom/sub. Akasha

lonewolf05 -> RE: Defining "submissive not only in the bedroom" (10/4/2005 8:51:23 PM)
i'm breaking out the popcorn for this one. i wanna see how many males pop up to be counted as...no strings outside the bedroom and no kinks... sits, tips over bowl, starts eating popcorn..wagging his tail.. woofie

Looking4answrs -> RE: Defining "submissive not only in the bedroom" (10/5/2005 2:53:39 AM)
quote: i'm breaking out the popcorn for this one. i wanna see how many males pop up to be counted as...no strings outside the bedroom and no kinks... sits, tips over bowl, starts eating popcorn..wagging his tail.. woofie Good one Wolfie!!! Ok, I will try and throw my two cents in here. I think that the activities that a domme and her sub engage in while in private is soley what seperates the tradional marriage from a femdom marriage. Just because a woman is the take charge sort in every "public" aspect of her life doesn't make her a domme, it just makes her seem like a woman who cares about her life! I have known women who were very aggresive in "public" life but just the opposite when it came to the bedroom and vice-versa. Every traditional marriage has its own dynamics as to who takes care of what, either based on their strengths or their desires, as with Akasha and her sub having control of the finances. I don't think anyone would say Akasha is not a dominant woman, despite her handing over of the finances! Therefore, I personally think that as long as the male is submissive in the bedroom, no matter what the intensity of the play is, that makes it a femdom relationship, no matter who takes care of what in their "public" life!

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Defining "submissive not only in the bedroom" (10/5/2005 6:40:15 AM)
quote: I personally think that as long as the male is submissive in the bedroom, no matter what the intensity of the play is, that makes it a femdom relationship, no matter who takes care of what in their "public" life! Dear Looking4answers, I think most people would call that man a bottom, or simply kinky/sexually open. Playing bottom in the bedroom does not make one submissive at all. JMO, M

thetammyjo -> RE: Defining "submissive not only in the bedroom" (10/5/2005 6:47:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: QueenRah How much for a trained Fox clone and how soon can he be delivered? QueenRah He says, with a gleam in his eyes, that sadly the mold was broken when he was created. And it isn't all butterflies and rainbows. He has bouts of depression, a medical depression, but he doesn't let that control his service. He's an abuse survivor (so am I though and I think that mutual negative history helps us cope with each other). He has migraines that can interfer with life. Plus I'm not sure you'd like how I train people -- they are, after all, trained for me. Thank you for asking, QueenRah.

thetammyjo -> RE: Defining "submissive not only in the bedroom" (10/5/2005 6:53:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha Here's where I get confused. In your post and in Thetammyjo's and others...what we seem to agree on is what kind of relationship I have -- but I don't consider it a "femdom 24/7 relationship" or when people talk about "I want a femdom who is not only a femdom sexually" I think "Well, I guess I'm one of those bedroom dommes" -- even though the actual physical place I dominate him isn't always the bedroom, of course. Akasha If your partner isn't submissive or doesn't not consider him your slave or your submissive 24/7 then you aren't 24/7 -- it is actually this easy. The relationship is defined (and should only be defined in my not terribly humble opinion) by those it in. PERIOD. I am the most dominant person in my household -- this includes the spouse. My spouse is not my submissive nor my slave. Even if I can get my way with him it often involves a lot of work on my part or feelings of negativity on his. With Fox, my slave, I don't work at it, it creates no negativity (or little, let's be realistic afterall), it just is because we've defined and created the relationship this way.

imtempting -> RE: Defining "submissive not only in the bedroom" (10/5/2005 7:16:56 AM)
For most parts I agree with your first post although I disagree that the male should not be allowed to try to start anything sexual or bdsm play. I think they should be unless told not too.

Kasia -> RE: Defining "submissive not only in the bedroom" (10/5/2005 11:28:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha Here's where I get confused. In your post and in Thetammyjo's and others...what we seem to agree on is what kind of relationship I have -- but I don't consider it a "femdom 24/7 relationship" or when people talk about "I want a femdom who is not only a femdom sexually" I think "Well, I guess I'm one of those bedroom dommes" -- even though the actual physical place I dominate him isn't always the bedroom, of course. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are talking about sexuallity in relationship. That is only one part of marriage/relationship and not even the mostly important or all the time included one. If its good. If its bad, it definitely becomes very important (had that in my first marriage). I guess you are just the person who would find it artificial and too much energy consuming to be "24/7 femdom" in every single aspect of your life. And as far as I can see from your posts, you have one fine and happy relationship........ so why bother? It surely doesnt make you less of a femdom if you dont always act that way, it jut shows you are flexible and complex human being. I suppose there are lots of dominant men and women who at some point leave D/s aspects out of their lives, some more some less. The way I see it, (and I am maybe wrong for I am really too inexperienced) you are sure of yourself enoug and trust and respect your partner enough to let go of controll and only keep it when it pleases and arouses you. Of course, I really dont know much about D/s relationships - my husband claims to be "almost vanilla". Since I got interested in bdsm (and he knows every step on the way for I have no secrets with him), I noticed some changes in his opinions on the subject. I find it significant that his sexual fantasies start to include more and more D/s elements. He helps me to sort my messages here and even chat with potential subs sometimes. Although claiming to be completely straight, he said he was willing to explore some bisexuality lately because I find it very interesting. So, does all that makes me wannabe or fake femdom? I never had any subs and as the chances are I am not going to have one very soon. I am in vanilla marriage with wonderful and naturally dominant man, even presenting an image of traditional "female-submissive" marriage to some of the outside world. I am ordering, demanding and strict to people whenever I can be - its just in my nature. Trust me, I am most confused sometimes sigh....... (not to mention I have problems in expressing myself for English is not my mother language) [:D]

AAkasha -> RE: Defining "submissive not only in the bedroom" (10/5/2005 11:40:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kasia quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha Here's where I get confused. In your post and in Thetammyjo's and others...what we seem to agree on is what kind of relationship I have -- but I don't consider it a "femdom 24/7 relationship" or when people talk about "I want a femdom who is not only a femdom sexually" I think "Well, I guess I'm one of those bedroom dommes" -- even though the actual physical place I dominate him isn't always the bedroom, of course. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are talking about sexuallity in relationship. That is only one part of marriage/relationship and not even the mostly important or all the time included one. If its good. If its bad, it definitely becomes very important (had that in my first marriage). I guess you are just the person who would find it artificial and too much energy consuming to be "24/7 femdom" in every single aspect of your life. And as far as I can see from your posts, you have one fine and happy relationship........ so why bother? It surely doesnt make you less of a femdom if you dont always act that way, it jut shows you are flexible and complex human being. For my personal relationship it really doesn't matter what label it gets --- but what I'm driving at is that I think some people "seek" a relationship dynamic (ie 24/7 femdom, or 'femdom not only in the bedroom') which extremely limits their potential dating pool, when in reality what they seek is not that different from a slightly modified "vanilla" relationship. The thing is, a lot of people get really irritated at the idea that their ideal relationship could be considered anything but "24/7" or "kinky" -- the idea that they would be in a "slightly vanilla" situation but with some gender roles tweaked isn't "good enough" -- they want to seek the "24/7 Femdom Relationship." So what happens - they never find it. Or, a sub finds it and the femdom is overbearing. Or the femdom finds it, and the sub is too passive. It just seems to me that sub men might often seek a woman who is a more assertive, more commanding, more demanding regarding sexuality and then add in her kink for fetish. There are a LOT of vanilla relationships out there where the woman is "all that" but not kinky at all -- she's just by nature an aggressive woman. There are also a lot of men that defer to women in relationships but are nowhere near "submissive" by nature or in their dynamic. If I cloned my husband and offered him up I think most femdoms would consider him obedient enough, attentive enough, responsive enough, devoted enough to fill the mold of a "submissive" husband. But he is not submissive, and if someone was seeking that, they'd overlook him. It makes me wonder about all the other guys that get overlooked because they don't imagine themselves to be submissive -- but they are highly devoted and selfless when it comes to the right woman. Akasha

tarnishedhalo777 -> RE: Defining "submissive not only in the bedroom" (10/5/2005 12:00:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig quote: I personally think that as long as the male is submissive in the bedroom, no matter what the intensity of the play is, that makes it a femdom relationship, no matter who takes care of what in their "public" life! Dear Looking4answers, I think most people would call that man a bottom, or simply kinky/sexually open. Playing bottom in the bedroom does not make one submissive at all. JMO, M yes this is soooooooo true and often misleading to the top when they are new and don't understand the dynamics/rules of such...they can even claim equal out of the bedroom but its usually still man dominated...too much Patriarchial society is ingrained.

Kasia -> RE: Defining "submissive not only in the bedroom" (10/5/2005 12:11:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha The thing is, a lot of people get really irritated at the idea that their ideal relationship could be considered anything but "24/7" or "kinky" -- the idea that they would be in a "slightly vanilla" situation but with some gender roles tweaked isn't "good enough" -- they want to seek the "24/7 Femdom Relationship." So what happens - they never find it. People tend to forget there are no ideal relationships - we just get the raw material at the start and then it depends on us what we make out of it. I suppose that is why there are so many singles reaching 40es and never being married or seriously involved in their lifes. People just dont know how to or dont want to compromise anymore. quote: It just seems to me that sub men might often seek a woman who is a more assertive, more commanding, more demanding regarding sexuality and then add in her kink for fetish. There are a LOT of vanilla relationships out there where the woman is "all that" but not kinky at all -- she's just by nature an aggressive woman. I very much agree. But that asks for effort, and how many of those sub men are willing to make one...... or they just go on hoping to bump into "femdom of their dreams" and "live happily ever after"?

Looking4answrs -> RE: Defining "submissive not only in the bedroom" (10/5/2005 1:27:38 PM)
quote: BlkTallFullfig..............Dear Looking4answers, I think most people would call that man a bottom, or simply kinky/sexually open. Playing bottom in the bedroom does not make one submissive at all. JMO, M Hi BlkTallFullfig I understand your point but what I failed to say was that even if the man is submissive in his public life with his partner but does not engage in anything "kinky" in private, then he is not a submissive in a femdom relationship. It all boils down to the acticities behind closed doors. Of course a man that is submissive behind closed doors would be submissive in most public areas of life as well. When I said it doesn't matter what happens in public life, I meant in only an area or two. I fully concur that he would just be kinky if he was dominant in ALL areas of public life. Hope this clarified my opinion a little! Looking

thetammyjo -> RE: Defining "submissive not only in the bedroom" (10/5/2005 1:39:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha For my personal relationship it really doesn't matter what label it gets --- but what I'm driving at is that I think some people "seek" a relationship dynamic (ie 24/7 femdom, or 'femdom not only in the bedroom') which extremely limits their potential dating pool, when in reality what they seek is not that different from a slightly modified "vanilla" relationship. The thing is, a lot of people get really irritated at the idea that their ideal relationship could be considered anything but "24/7" or "kinky" -- the idea that they would be in a "slightly vanilla" situation but with some gender roles tweaked isn't "good enough" -- they want to seek the "24/7 Femdom Relationship." Most of life is very mundane and repetitive -- that's the way it is. 24/7 is difficult because it must be mundane to actually be 24/7; it cannot ignore the realities of life. Learning to separate the fantasy from the realities can be hard and disappointing. It is not, by any stretch, possible or useful for most people I've met in the kink world. Its a strange balancing act between demanding everything and realizing just how limited you must be day to day. And it is very very difficult to explain to anyone not trying it themselves.

lonewolf05 -> RE: Defining "submissive not only in the bedroom" (10/5/2005 1:55:38 PM)
quote: And it isn't all butterflies and rainbows. He has bouts of depression, a medical depression, but he doesn't let that control his service. He's an abuse survivor (so am I though and I think that mutual negative history helps us cope with each other). He has migraines that can interfer with life. thetammyjo ========== as long as "I" am not the only one with severe migraines and medical issues..... whew and here i thought "I" was the only one.. i feel better already.... woofie

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