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RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? - 4/2/2008 6:21:10 AM   
MistressVnus


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quote:

He's certainly more of a switch than a flat-out sub, that's for sure.  That dominant streak of his is still running strong... previously I was using a "topping from the bottom" type session as a reward for good behavior, but I'm wondering if that's not just reinforcing his disobedience and stubbornness?


This is why I will NEVER own a "switch" as a submissive again.  I had the same problems and no matter what I did to CONSTANTLY reward good behavior and punish for bad, the Dominant side just kept rearing it's ugly head.
Some people are just that....*switches*.  It is in them.  Don't let it ruin your self-esteem.  He is what he is.

That said, I would suggest sitting down and making a list of qualities you NEED in a submissive.  Then make a list of his submissive qualities.  How well do they match?  Then, perhaps the two of you should look over that list and make up a "behaviorial" contract, complete with consequences (I think your "denial" and "banishment" seems to have the best effect on him and would utilize this more often).  Make any adjustments to the contract necessary as the two of you review it.
Also, in that contract will be an agreement for "terms of release."  If he fails to live up to the contract then you might have to come to terms with the fact that he IS NOT SUBMISSIVE, but, a SWITCH.  There is a big difference.  And, you may need to release him.  Make sure your own emotional attachment is not such that you are letting this drive your decision making instead of your "intellect."  An emotionally driven Dominance rarely is effective.  You must be able to detach when you have to use "denial" and "banishment" as a training device.

It's tough.  I know.  Went through it for 2 1/2 years with a slave.  Needless to say, he got released.  And, guess what...after that he went to the other side and is now a Master.  Go figure.  However, I feel he is better suited in that position.  He put my training skills to the test.  Without a doubt.  And, like your sub, denial and banishment were pretty much the only effective tool.  But, I got tired of constantly having to do this.  What good is a sub to me if I always am having to deny and banish.  That affects me as well as I have no sub to serve me during that time.

Best of luck with this.  Let us know how it goes.

< Message edited by MistressVnus -- 4/2/2008 6:23:06 AM >


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RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? - 4/2/2008 8:30:19 AM   
LadyHibiscus


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~FR~
I read the start of this thread last night, so hope this comment is germane....

Sometimes the person you are with is not your ideal as a sub, and maybe you are not ideal as a dominant FOR THAT PERSON.  This does not mean that the relationship can't work and last, it just means that the boundaries need to be renegotiated.

If, however, someone treats you badly, is mean and vindictive when they don't get their way, attack YOU personally, then that is a sign that they are just not a good person and you should think before committing.  (Voice of Experience)  Every couple has disagreements.  Not every couple has knockdown fights, though. 

Good luck! 

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RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? - 4/2/2008 9:39:50 AM   
Pyrrsefanie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chezzy52

Call me silly but it doesn't make sense if your boy is resisting you but yet claims that you are the one for him that changed his life and attitude so drastically.He's ex-military??Then he should know by now what discipline is.Not for anything but if this doesn't work out,why do you think turning Lesbian will suddenly improve your life??No offense but i think you have issues on your own if you are going to dismiss the entire male population on earth.You both have room to grow although he should know better..for chrissakes..you are only 20..give yourself and others a chance.


Chezzy is apparently not familiar with "sarcasm."

Seriously, chill out.  I was being funny, not literally saying I was going to turn lesbian if this didn't work out.  Interesting how that's the main thing you fixate on in your response, I sense some issues of your own.


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RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? - 4/2/2008 10:02:18 AM   
Pyrrsefanie


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AND LADIEEEEES AND GENTLEMEN, THE RESOLUTION!

First of all, thanks to everyone for their sincere and very thoughtful advice.  It really did help me to be able to sit down and focus on some paths that I honestly was not able to see on my own.

We had a talk last night about his behavior.  Turns out he was apparently still feeling guilty about getting snippy with me earlier because the first thing he said was "I'm really sorry for snapping at you," before I could even say anything about what the talk was about.

Fast-forward to about an hour later where ground rules were laid, complaints were aired out, and surprisingly, no yelling.

From his point of view, medical school and his job are taking so much of his emotional ability to submit that when he gets home, he just doesn't have anything left in him.  Of course he's so freaking wonderful about communication that he neglected to tell me this and went on the defensive because his circuits basically were overloaded with the stresses of the day + "hey baby, bend over."  Which makes sense.  But because of the snippiness that he used to get this across to me, I perceived it as him being a jerk and being "bad," so to speak, rather than just legitimately needing time to recover.

We discussed that difference and identified exactly what he needs to say and how he needs to carry himself in order to get across the latter rather than the former.  I told him that I will respect his "no" (thanks again Akasha!) if he will respect my feelings.  If and when he snaps at me, he will be handed a journal and a pen and told to write it out so that I can try to understand him a little bit better.

He says that he does want to submit to me 24/7, and not just as play sessions, although I did make it quite clear that if he ever did need to make the switch to occasional playtime rather than all-the-time, I would still be pleased as punch.  I figure if the fear of "oh no, she's going to hate this and walk out" was there at all, that should help to dissipate it a little bit.

I also did explain to him that from now on, bad behavior would be punished by taking away play.  He whimpered a little bit at this but agreed that it would definitely be effective.  And TN, I didn't guilt trip him.  I was about 50% serious, 50% joking about the guilt thing until I realized that by using the guilt trip, I'd turn into my mother! 

I made it quite clear to him that he has been getting away with far too much bad behavior during the times that he is perfectly capable of submitting to me, and that I would no longer be such a softy about it.  Think I intimidated him a little bit because other than the "banishment" threat, I just sat there grinning like the cat that ate the canary instead of telling him WHAT I had planned!

Last night he didn't want to do his assignment for Blue's training because he had other things he'd rather do.  In a very even tone I told him that it was up to him as to how he wanted to approach that, but that I sincerely hoped he'd think about cause and effect before making his final decision.

He sucked it up and did it.  I felt like hugging him!

So we'll see how this turns out.  He got home from school and already has implemented the "communicate like an adult" portion of the plan.  I do feel like I did get through to him on some level and I really hope that we can work on this.  I've told him several times that if anything's going to make me rethink my life with him, it's going to be his attitude.  I stressed this again last night.

I honestly believe that he's a good person at heart, he's just very immature and stubborn (which is a bit odd because his zodiac is Cancer, and I don't recall either of those really as being Cancer traits).  We don't have "knockdown fights," at least not physically... really the super-bad ones only happen once in a blue moon and looking back at them I'm about as responsible for them as he is.  To put people's mind at ease, he's never laid a hand on me in an un-sexy way.  Most importantly I don't think he's got it in him, and he does not have a history of violence against women... and on a smaller, slightly funnier note, he knows that not only will I never put up with that shit again, but I will also smite him with great vengeance and furious anger before walking out the door.

I really don't think I can thank everyone enough for their advice, their genuine concern... I'm a lot more confident about this and what it's going to take now that I've aired it out, rather than trying to figure it out on my own.  Thank you thank you thank you!


_____________________________

Ти саркастична, це – доля,
Ти артистична в неволі,
Ти симпатична в цій ролі,
Ти синтетична до болю

Read my series, Taking Jessica, on http://www.akashaweb.com !

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RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? - 4/2/2008 4:40:42 PM   
xxblushesxx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss

I believe that actions and behaviors speak louder than words, and if he truely wanted to submit to you he wouldn't behave like a spoiled brat and fight you at every turn when you tried to assert your dominance over him. Also in my opinion submissives are still supposed to be submissive wheather they're in the mood to be or not. Because in my eyes a submissive doesn't claim to want you to domme them only when it's good for them untill they don't feel like it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pyrrsefanie

The other half of the time he acts like a spoiled, petulant child.  I try to rein him back in and sometimes it works, but other times he justs resists that too and gets resentful and snappy with me.

Nine times out of ten he realizes he's fucked up when I don't want to speak to him, let alone even look at him because I'm so angry/frustrated/otherwise upset with him.  And he'll come back to me and apologize, but it's always with an excuse.  "I've had a hard day."  "I'm tired."  "I'm not in the mood."  Stupid, soft me, I don't call him out on the excuses because I'm afraid it's going to trigger a massive argument, I just think "well, maybe he won't do it again."  Yeah.  About that.

I know that people are human and that they have bad days... but he says he wants this.  He says that he wants to belong to me and he wants me to be his domme, except I'm starting to think that in his mind, he only wants it when he feels like it, and the rest of the time there's no way I'm going to get him to submit, no ifs, ands, or buts. 

He's a procrastinator with everything.  Out of exasperation I sent him to Miss Blue's spring training which is focusing on going back to the beginning of submission, hoping that maybe that would help him open up and be more receptive to my own training... so far it's been a fight to get him to do his homework that usually ends up in him snapping at me and me feeling like a huge pain in the ass to him.





It can be much more difficult than that. Especially when you're hearing voices in your mind telling you that a strong (man, woman, whatever) doesn't behave submissively to their SO. I think that is simplistic, in a way.

~Christina whowantstobesubmissivebutfindsitverydifficultandcanbeverydifficultasaresult

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RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? - 4/2/2008 5:02:11 PM   
MistressVnus


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quote:

THE RESOLUTION!


I'm sooooooooo glad you are working it out.  I wish you the best of luck as you sound so happy with your man, otherwise.


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"I'm not IN the lifestyle. The lifestyle is in Me!"

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RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? - 4/2/2008 5:30:06 PM   
CoasttoCoast


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you know, i really always assumed that i'd never like being owned

but this whole exchange has been kinda hot.   

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RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? - 4/2/2008 5:50:11 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Glad things are moving along in a positive fashion! 

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RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? - 4/2/2008 7:24:15 PM   
TNstepsout


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Yeah! I'm so pleased that you are moving toward a positive resolution for both of you. 

I'm glad you didn't use Ye Olde Guilte Trip.  I have to admit I had such a strong gut reaction when I read it that I didn't even consider that you were kidding. I should have known better. I don't know if it's a generational thing or what but you would have turned into my Mom too. Yikes!

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RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? - 4/2/2008 11:15:39 PM   
KindLadyGrey


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Glad to hear you got this handled. I read the OP and identified immediately. Sometimes a difficult boy can make you feel quite unDommely. I've got a really cute one in my orbit that I want to BEAT REGULARLY WITH A 2x4 but instead I let him get away with way too much and end up asking myself later why I let him walk all over me.

This whole thread has been pretty educational for me too. I don't think any of the advice will help with 2x4 boy, since we don't see each other often enough for good ol behaviorism to do the trick, but it certainly gives me food for thought about my other relationships.

And hey, MistressVnus, stop hatin' on the switches :(

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RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? - 4/3/2008 4:38:07 AM   
LadyJeelys


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First, keep in mind that I'm not exactly known for my diplomacy.

I take a bit of a different take on this. In your post (which I do understand was venty), I see alot of "he did this, he didn't do that, he's the problem, he makes excuses".....what I didn't see was the part where you took responsibility for YOU. Perhaps its true that he does only want to submit when he wants to---that's a personal kink and its ok. IF that is the case and you love this guy (you must since you want to commit your life to his) then YOU have to decide how you work around his kink. Maybe instead of it being his bad habits that are the problem, its you being passive agressive (after all, you posted here to gain allies against him, people to say "bad boy" with you.) In fact, notice that to work on your frustration with him, you are the one whinging in public----which kinda makes it seem ike the petulant child calling the pot black. Also, if one method of Dominance isn't working, and he's worth it to you to modify your behavior.....try different tactic. There are no rules on Domination--and even if there were, why would want to obey them? There is no standard to live up to. There is nothing that says a Domme can't break down and cry....or step back from being Dominant to work on relationship fundamentals (which far and away out weigh submission fundamentals). I don't mean that as an attack, but rather as an attempt to prod self evaluation.

And I gotta ask....why did you have his collar in your hand after you got annoyed? Did you take it off when you got irritated or did he? Cause, I gotta say, if the collar can come off when you get upset-or when he's upset, then I can undersand why he would be a bit stroppy.....if for no other reasons than to test the boundaries, to discover how far he can push before you walk away.


(((Keep in mind too, that I'm not big on training a guy to submit or even forcing him to submit. I value the submission that comes from a guy's desire to submit to me. If I have to train that kind of obedience....well, I have a dog and she's a whole lot less maintaince than a man and I can take care of other needs with a bit of creativity :) )))

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RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? - 4/3/2008 4:52:35 AM   
Lashra


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I've got a sub who is pretty similar. Growing up his Mom was one that let him do whatever he wanted because he was "just a boy" (Goddess how I hate to hear people say that!). The women he had dated prior to me were all submissive and allowed him to get away with his sometimes childish behavior. I on the other hand refuse to tolerate it and I learned to ignore him when he was throwing the tantrum and then sit him down for a chat.

I would explain to him why his behavior was out of order and that I wasn't his Mother and I was not going to put up with it. He would recieve punishment and be ignored until I felt he had suffered enough. If the behavior continued I made sure that he knew he is not the only male sub out there. In other words if you continue to act up you can be replaced by someone who will cherish the position as my sub. Since having said that, I have not had a problem since. Would I go through with  my threat? You betcha. Why should I have a sub who isn't happy serving me and serves to up my stress level? Frankly to me thats not what D/s is about.

So if he is going to act like a child you just may have to start treating him like one. Be the stern Mom type and see what happens.

Good luck,
~Lashra




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RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? - 4/3/2008 7:28:01 AM   
MistressVnus


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quote:

And hey, MistressVnus, stop hatin' on the switches :(


LadyGrey....
I don't hate them.  Hell, I used to be one!!
I have just evolved over the years to learn that they can present more of a challenge in a submissive role regarding a LTR.  I know I was!!!  Hell, I was so challenging I was pretty much kicked out!!  LOL  And, there are many times when a switch will later seek out a stronger existence on one side of the fence or the other later in their evolution, as I have.  It's all in learning about one's self.
There often comes a time when a switch has to be recognized for what they are....a switch.  If someone is seeking a person who has a very strong sub/slave mentality then often a switch is not the way to go.  It's all a matter of preference.

But, believe me, I in no way hate swtiches.  I want to disspell that impression right here.  And, I respect them as switches.  That is why I like to recognize them for what they desire and point out that trying to keep a switch in one mindset or the other is often futile.  That's all.


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RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? - 4/3/2008 7:39:33 AM   
KindLadyGrey


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Yay! Okay, thanks for clarifying :)

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RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? - 4/3/2008 9:01:08 AM   
Pyrrsefanie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyJeelys
(after all, you posted here to gain allies against him, people to say "bad boy" with you.) In fact, notice that to work on your frustration with him, you are the one whinging in public----which kinda makes it seem ike the petulant child calling the pot black.

And I gotta ask....why did you have his collar in your hand after you got annoyed? Did you take it off when you got irritated or did he?


The first part of your post that I quoted is completely WRONG.  You've misunderstood my intentions and I won't lie, I take offense to that.

I asked for advice, plain and simple, whether that include saying he's in the wrong, or saying something different.  I don't think that I'm completely free of blame myself.  When he gets bitchy with me, I get bitchy right back.  It's a part of myself that I've been working on with him -- trying to not let him antagonize me into reacting basically no better than he does.  The name-calling here when I'm simply trying to find others' input on how to deal with disobedience when it involves someone you love is a bit unneeded.  If everyone who posts venty posts like this here is a petulant child, then I've got to say, it's going to be one crowded playpen.

More like, I understand that I'm a "new Mistress" and that I don't have all the answers.  For that reason, I turn to this forum in particular to get the wisdom and advice of others who have been doing this for a lot longer than I have.  The pain I feel isn't because "waaah, he's not doing what I say, he's a poopyhead!" but more "...what the Hell am I doing wrong to make him snap at me like this?  That hurts!"

However, I appreciate your honesty and the fact that you pointed out a lack of information from MY side of things, as I was able to address that swiftly.

As for the collar question, I wasn't able to even get it onto him.  He doesn't wear his collar 24/7 due to the fact that we're sometimes around family, out in public, etc., and while I could care less, it's something of a "hard limit" for him, which I understand.  Because of the culture in which he and I were brought up we were always taught "Do not disgrace your family, do not call attention to yourself, keep your head down and represent your family as such, deviance is bad."  The difference is that he's still got a full family, and I've lost most of mine -- the only ones left, now, are the rest of the black sheep and I, so I'm not quite as stringent on it as he is.


_____________________________

Ти саркастична, це – доля,
Ти артистична в неволі,
Ти симпатична в цій ролі,
Ти синтетична до болю

Read my series, Taking Jessica, on http://www.akashaweb.com !

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RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? - 4/3/2008 9:16:05 AM   
Dnomyar


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What am I going to do. There is no one here old enough to mother me.  

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RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? - 4/4/2008 7:42:26 AM   
MsHonor


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Pyrrsefanie:  Just a few points of observation / advice I wanted to add, in case they're helpful.

On the removal and application of collar:  I can fully and easily understand the need to remove it for social and professional reasons... Can he make it to and from the car with it on?  One solution might be to have -him- remove it once he's left your presense for the day / morning / whatever (with appropriate notations that he's to remember it's meaning and effect whether it's physically on him or not, of course) and then replace it before he enters your presence again.  This will provide him a moment to take a specific physical action which, while it may become routine if he allows it to, could also be calming and preparatory.

I'd tell him something like "Before you return to me from the other requirements of the day, I want you to stop and put on your collar... And think about what you're doing, and why you're going it, and what it means.  Don't put that collar on and enter my presence until and unless you're ready to pay proper attention and respect to it, and to me.

On stress, bad days, and bad moods... and bad behaviour:  We all have bad days.  Even a dog or horse can have a bad day, and not be as "good" as we might want them to be.  That's ok.  Or, more accurately, bad moods are ok, in reasonable proportions.  Bad behaviour isn't ok.  Worse, if you ignore or allow it beyond a certain level, you make it ok, if only by precedent.  In my opinion, the only acceptably proper course of action if he's simply not able to behave properly around you (which  premise I reject in the first place, but that's up to you) is to ask to remove himself to "cool down". 

I've never been good at temper...  I don't raise my voice in anger, partially through a low affect rate, but also through a refusal to demean myself.  As a result, I'm never very understanding with people who "can't help it".  As I said... I simply reject the premise.  If they say "Well, I was angry." I say something like "That is no excuse. Control your temper. You're neither a child nor a rabid animal."

Working with any kind of "spirited" creature is always something of a challenge... But there -has- to be a line in the sand.  There -has- to be a level of acting out that's simply not acceptable and not allowed... And crossing that line has to have reprecussions.

On consistency & reliability:  And those reprecussions have to be consistent and reliable. 

This part isn't so much a reply to anything specific in your posts, but more of a general observation... 

Consistency is terribly important, no matter what you're training.  If you say "If you do A, then B will happen." it becomes very important that B does, in fact, happen.  To borrow the old cliche', you don't make threats... You make promises.  Establishing that you have the courage of your convictions and the steel to back them up is crucial to establishing and maintaining your authority, and, thus, fulfilling your submissive's needs.

On "walking out the door":  The way you said you were afraid he might walk out, and the way you tempered your words against the fear that he might walk out... It's just my opinion and style, but I see this as a huge flag.  In consensual slavery, we're not really allowed to kill 'em... Even a good maiming is generally frowned upon, and selling them to someone else can prove difficult as well.  What this all boils down to is that witholding your approval and attention is really the only "big gun" you have, up to and including the "nuclear option" of dismissal.

I know it's tough.  It's painful and even scary... I've felt the hearbreaking pain of letting go of a sub or slave I loved.  But you cannot afford to show it.  Like the old saying, "They can smell your fear!"  :-)  In the case of the best subs, it'll shake their confidence in you... In the case of the worst, it'll be an invitation to hold you hostage and walk all over you.

The most you can afford is to tell them, with a cool and commanding bearing, "I would hate to let you go... It would break my heart.  But your behaviour has been absolutely unacceptable, and I simply will not put up with it."  ...Then you set your requirements, you set the penalties, and you -stick- to them.  You -have- to stick to your guns.  A dominant's authority is like an officer's authority...  once compromised, it's devilishly hard to re-build.

You have to remember what the specific form of the relationship is about...  What it does.  What needs are being fulled, specifically, by the power exchange aspects of it.  If there weren't needs on both sides, we'd all just go vanilla.

I usually encapsulate it as "submissives need to be cherished, dominants need to be needed."

Both terms are, in this instance, wicked oversimplified, of course.  For the submissive, this "cherished" feeling might include stability, structure, leadership, authority, the emotional security of being a valuable possession... The hope that responsibility to an external authority might amplify the voices of one's better angels... Any combination of these and other specifics... All of which come down to or tie in with the sense of "belonging" that I choose to lable as "being cherished".

The point I'm trying to make (badly, unfortunately) is that you have to hold your ground.  You have to be strong and stalwart.  Commanding.  Resolute.  And, therefore, reliable and safe.  You don't lose fights... You don't even lower yourslf to participate in them.  You're simply not a person to be fought with.  This doesn't mean you're perfect or infallible, or even that you don't admit your mistakes...  If you are informed of a mistake politely, and couteously, you can thank them for bringing it to your attention, and give it your due consideration...

But when someone gets snappy or abusive with you, and you allow it, you're just making things harder for later...   Maybe a simple "Who, exactly, do you think you're speaking to?  Go away.  Come back when you can be appropriately respectful and not forget yourself."


Ugh.  Very long... I'm sorry.  I hope some part of it made sense and perhaps helps.  I'm happy you came to a working arrangement... My best anf most hopeful advice would be that you to use it as a fresh beginning, to the extent that it's possible.

~Best...




(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? - 4/4/2008 7:04:14 PM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline
I know that for me, should it not be a hard limit that I do not play with others, if I had a sub and his bad behavior made me put him on restriction, I would simply play with others while he was on restriction. It'd also hopefully make him realize that he DOES NOT want to make you put him on restructions and stuff cause he's the only one loosing out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pyrrsefanie


I was hoping it wouldn't have to come down to withdraw play, as that's a punishment for me too --

(in reply to Pyrrsefanie)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? - 4/4/2008 7:08:48 PM   
Pyrrsefanie


Posts: 1222
Joined: 9/18/2007
From: NEW HAMPSHAAAAAAH!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss

I know that for me, should it not be a hard limit that I do not play with others, if I had a sub and his bad behavior made me put him on restriction, I would simply play with others while he was on restriction.



I think you may have missed the part of my original post where I mentioned that he's also my fiance... playing with others is a BIG no-no in our relationship, not only for me, but for him.  I've been burned by poly before and it's left me with a permanent distaste for it.


_____________________________

Ти саркастична, це – доля,
Ти артистична в неволі,
Ти симпатична в цій ролі,
Ти синтетична до болю

Read my series, Taking Jessica, on http://www.akashaweb.com !

(in reply to YourhandMyAss)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? - 4/4/2008 7:19:42 PM   
xxblushesxx


Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss

I know that for me, should it not be a hard limit that I do not play with others, if I had a sub and his bad behavior made me put him on restriction, I would simply play with others while he was on restriction. It'd also hopefully make him realize that he DOES NOT want to make you put him on restructions and stuff cause he's the only one loosing out.


Anyone who tried that with me would be losing out on me....
(might be a good thing for some, devastating to others)
That would feel like a game, and I would not let anyone, even my Master, play games with my emotions.

_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com


(in reply to YourhandMyAss)
Profile   Post #: 40
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