My attempt to start a discussion (with a bit of a dissertation) (Full Version)

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ZandD -> My attempt to start a discussion (with a bit of a dissertation) (10/4/2005 1:28:27 PM)

As I have been writing my opinions and responses to a few posts, I thought that I would start one on my own and see where it goes. It'll take me a bit to set up so I ask patience.

Much of what has driven people into BDSM and D/s has been the introduction of a new and wonderful means of communication that is relatively inexpensive and readily available (I believe that the latest figures estimate that 8 out of 10 American homes own some appliance capable of accessing the internet). As we all know the internet has been a wonderful source of strength and power for the human race. The planet-wide sharing of knowledge has never occured out recorded history and it's full impact and usefulness has yet to be realized.

(Check out the book "Childhood's End-Arthur C. Clarke. He prenosticated the abolishment of telephone rates and his assertion that the human race would operate, act and interact together in a way never experienced in humanity. Even though this is not the internet per se, this foresight is quite similar to the events taking place right now.)

Speaking specifically of BDSM, interest in this way of life and love has exploded exponentially. Some people have used the medium to gain valuable insight into themselves that may not have been possible before. Some people have used this new tool for despicable acts. Whatever the impact, the advent of the internet has changed nearly every aspect of our lives forevermore, regardless of whether you ever pick up a mouse or used a cellphone or not. The effects of this still-new technology will send ripples through every way of life on Earth and onto every person living for generations to come.

Many people (including myself) have bemoaned the state of a BDSM D/s type relationship using these new tools, extolling instead on the importance and sigificance of face to face interaction. Still, for the percentage of us that have gone to that level in the last 8 to 10 years (or so), the computer and internet have played a large role in knowledge, support, matchmaking, shopping, travel and so on.

My queries are these:

1. What FOR YOU are the positive and the negatives regarding BDSM in cyberspace?

2. For you pre-internet practitioners of BDSM, has the understanding and practice of BDSM improved since the advent of the internet? If so, how? If not, why?

3. Do you see the internet improving our life in BDSM in the NEXT 10 years? How do you see YOUR life improving with the use of the internet?

and (final question)

If the internet was destroyed tomorrow and there was no way to communicate that equals the ease and reach of the internet, would you supplement your desire to live this life by other means (e.g. munches, meetings, play parties, snail-mail mailing lists) or start your own groups and such?



As they say on the ESPN show "Who's #1", LET THE DEBATING BEGIN!

I return you to your regularly scheduled kink,

Z

P.S. I love to write! Thank you all who managed to stay awake for making it down this far! Damn, I'm long winded!



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: My attempt to start a discussion (with a bit of a dissertation) (10/4/2005 1:36:22 PM)

I don't think it's the access to information which drives people, I think it's the conduit which has allowed the sub-culture to explode so rapidly and to change as much as it has.

How does "the scene" affect bdsm relationships?

Online Ds

Online bdsm help or hindrance?




Rover -> RE: My attempt to start a discussion (with a bit of a dissertation) (10/4/2005 1:52:29 PM)

1. What FOR YOU are the positive and the negatives regarding BDSM in cyberspace?

Positives: Long distance communication, exchange of ideas, sharing of experiences, out of town events, etc.

Negatives: Fantasy portrayed as reality, lying (inherent to the internet, not the lifestyle).

2. For you pre-internet practitioners of BDSM, has the understanding and practice of BDSM improved since the advent of the internet? If so, how? If not, why?

Information is only as good as your source. Real time functions tend to vet presenters to determine the veracity of their information. Online, anyone with "Lord" or "Master" in front of their name is (often) considered a credible source.

3. Do you see the internet improving our life in BDSM in the NEXT 10 years? How do you see YOUR life improving with the use of the internet?

It will be what people (individually) make of it.

If the internet was destroyed tomorrow and there was no way to communicate that equals the ease and reach of the internet, would you supplement your desire to live this life by other means (e.g. munches, meetings, play parties, snail-mail mailing lists) or start your own groups and such?

I am already involved with the lifestyle on a local, regional and national level, well beyond the internet.

John[/font]



Padriag -> RE: My attempt to start a discussion (with a bit of a dissertation) (10/4/2005 2:18:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ZandD

1. What FOR YOU are the positive and the negatives regarding BDSM in cyberspace?

For me the positives have been the increased access of information, either directly (ie web sites and forums such as this) or indirectly (ie online book stores selling books on the subject I might otherwise not have heard of). The ability to have discussions with large and diverse groups has been a plus, especially since I live in a rural area, that just would not be possible for me otherwise. It offers an environment to explore ideas in relative safety.

The negatives for me would include the ease with which the internet makes it to be fraudelent or to avoid active involvement. People making attacks on others or otherwise stating things they probably could not get away with if we were all sitting in a room together. It allows people to continuely talk about things they will never do.

quote:

2. For you pre-internet practitioners of BDSM, has the understanding and practice of BDSM improved since the advent of the internet? If so, how? If not, why?

Wasn't quite around for this.

quote:

3. Do you see the internet improving our life in BDSM in the NEXT 10 years? How do you see YOUR life improving with the use of the internet?

Hmm... honestly I think the level of benefit the internet provides me in general has already plateaued. I do a fair amount of shopping online, correspondence, even work related things. The service may improve but I think I've already maxed out its utility to me personally. As for my life in "BDSM" I don't really see it improving it at all, I use it for discussion groups and that's pretty much it, so there's not much improvement it can offer. What I actually do in my lifestyle I do pretty much in private and so there is little that is going to affect that (which is precisely why I prefer to keep it that way).

quote:

and (final question)

If the internet was destroyed tomorrow and there was no way to communicate that equals the ease and reach of the internet, would you supplement your desire to live this life by other means (e.g. munches, meetings, play parties, snail-mail mailing lists) or start your own groups and such?

None of the above, I'd just continue doing what I've done all along. I have never been much for munches or play parties, but then I haven't found them necessary. The lifestyle is popular enough its not all that hard to find those interested in submission and wanting to explore that... you can meet them at the local grocery store. I'd say right now if you approached any woman you meet in public you've probably got a 50/50 shot she's had some sort of submissive fantasies. So if you've got some social skills you'll do fine no matter what happens. Then again I've never been much of a "joiner" anyway.

quote:

P.S. I love to write! Thank you all who managed to stay awake for making it down this far! Damn, I'm long winded!

You think that was long winded... have you seen my posts? LOL



TearCollector -> RE: My attempt to start a discussion (with a bit of a dissertation) (10/4/2005 2:28:48 PM)

I don’t know what I have to offer on this thread but since the author said it was an attempt to start a discussion, I have decided to chime in with some words.

I moved to the Pacific Islands about 10 years ago. That was exactly when the internet crazy started to take root in the USA. The technology didn’t arrive here on my special little Polynesian rock until 1997 I think. Even then it wasn’t much. Today, we are still at 52kb with business recently being upgraded to DSL.

I found the BDSM lifestyle by accident. I was surfing and stumbled on to collarme.com a year ago. I found the things involving this lifestyle interesting enough to lurk around. Then one day I found a profile that I was very much interested in. I contacted her and we hit it off. The woman rocked my world. "Which at the moment is also a rock so she rocked my rock". She was not from here but distance didn’t matter to me. It could be resolved.

Ironically, she was quite young and impressively experienced. Her enthusiasm was intoxicating and I became addicted to her. Unfortunately, the distance was more than she could deal with. I sadly lost her as a slave but we still keep in touch. Now I surf this site hoping to find someone that can deal with distance until it can be worked out.

So, the internet was very instrumental in my admission into the BDSM lifestyle. It is my only connection to the BDSM lifestyle today. I am not in Hawaii as my profile states. Im in American Samoa which was the closest profile option. Im still a newbie with great potential I think. But, the search goes on.


TearCollector



CanisMajor -> RE: My attempt to start a discussion (with a bit of a dissertation) (10/4/2005 3:13:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZandD
1. What FOR YOU are the positive and the negatives regarding BDSM in cyberspace?


Positives:

  • I've slurped up a lot of really fun ideas from the internet, at a higher rate than would have been possible without it.
  • I've met more people in the lifestyle face to face than I would have otherwise. Probably 75% or more of the people I know are people I got hooked up with over the internet.


Negatives:


  • I don't understand or enjoy cyber, and I have found the experiences in which that was sought from me to be weird and squicky.
  • In addition to my face-meeting numbers rising, my exposure to idiots has gone off the charts.



quote:

2. For you pre-internet practitioners of BDSM, has the understanding and practice of BDSM improved since the advent of the internet? If so, how? If not, why?


Yes, it has. I think the main thing has been that I've been exposed to a great deal of safety information that I'd not otherwise have understood, at least not as clearly. I think I've also increased the amount of respect I have for people that use toys skillfully; I don't think prior to the internet that I fully understood to extent to which certain toys reward practice.

In addition, I have found it extremely valuable to read the many web pages and newsgroup postings (back when) written by women, especially sub women, that deal with various lifestyle matters. Prior to this, my information base amounted to whatever the women around me happened to mention or whatever I happened to question them about, and in retrospect I find these particular women were uncommunicative about what I think are important matters. There is no possible way that I could have been exposed to the quantity or quality of reflection from women that I've enjoyed online. And I'm not talking about jack-off material written with a first person woman character; I'm talking about mostly sober, sometimes whimsical writings about the lifestyle in real-life.

quote:

3. Do you see the internet improving our life in BDSM in the NEXT 10 years? How do you see YOUR life improving with the use of the internet?


I think it will continue to improve mine. The improvement will be incremental, not revolutionary; for example, the advent of blogs in the last few years was not as significant to me as the advent of the internet overall. Information tends to improve my experience and spur my inspiration; as time goes on, the internet will expose me to more and more information.

quote:

If the internet was destroyed tomorrow and there was no way to communicate that equals the ease and reach of the internet, would you supplement your desire to live this life by other means (e.g. munches, meetings, play parties, snail-mail mailing lists) or start your own groups and such?


I've done that in the past and am seeking to do that now, regardless of the existence of the internet. So I guess I would say if the internet disappeared, I'd be a lot poorer for it, but it probably wouldn't result in redoubled effort in the real-life community.


quote:

P.S. I love to write!


Me too! But I also love to read, so those that don't can just ignore blowhards like us.

(edit for typo)



WickedKev -> RE: My attempt to start a discussion (with a bit of a dissertation) (10/4/2005 4:14:41 PM)

quote:

1. What FOR YOU are the positive and the negatives regarding BDSM in cyberspace?


There are always positives and negatives to anything. The positive is that it has opened the door to many to the world of BDSM that in other times must have seemed well and truely shut. The negative is that it has opened the door to abuse, and what i mean by that is to people who have no real interest in D/s, BDSM, S/M. All they want is a quick easy leg over.

quote:

2. For you pre-internet practitioners of BDSM, has the understanding and practice of BDSM improved since the advent of the internet? If so, how? If not, why?


As one of these pre-internet practitoners (thanks now I'm feeling old again) I can't say it has improved, mainly because with the huge influx of people, attitudes change. I can't imagine someone back then wanting to play or be with someone elses sub/slave attempting to go behind the back of that sub/slaves Master. Yet online it happens all the time.

quote:

3. Do you see the internet improving our life in BDSM in the NEXT 10 years? How do you see YOUR life improving with the use of the internet?


Don't see it improving life just assisting it but that is for me, for others perhaps it will.

quote:

and (final question)

If the internet was destroyed tomorrow and there was no way to communicate that equals the ease and reach of the internet, would you supplement your desire to live this life by other means (e.g. munches, meetings, play parties, snail-mail mailing lists) or start your own groups and such?


I am involved in all the things you mention, for me the internet is just a way to stay attuned to what is happening and when it is happening, to a pass the week days away until the weekend comes. So if it just disappeared wouldn't change my life too much.




LadiesBladewing -> RE: My attempt to start a discussion (with a bit of a dissertation) (10/4/2005 5:05:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ZandD

1. What FOR YOU are the positive and the negatives regarding BDSM in cyberspace?


The biggest positives for us are the opportunity to talk to others who share our love for this way of life, the exploration of new ideas that comes from such conversations and the ability to network and provide and use resources to build the community and help others outside of the community to understand a little better about the broad range of people who enjoy this life, whether in small bits or huge bites.

The biggest negative is that the internet seems to have exacerbated the societal tendencies towards rudeness and impatience. We are a very formal group, and welcoming people is handled with patience and dignity. People who spend a great deal of time on the internet seem to have difficulty grasping the intricacies of formal manners, slowly-developing relationships and opening and exposing oneself in order to merge with a community. As a more minor negative there is the tendency for online BDSM to focus on beginning and ending with cybersex. It is most likely that I have no interest in it, but I've always found it somewhat pointless--and on the few occasions I've participated, I've spent most of the time wondering why I wasn't writing a novel instead.

quote:

2. For you pre-internet practitioners of BDSM, has the understanding and practice of BDSM improved since the advent of the internet? If so, how? If not, why?


I think the amount of information available has increased exponentially, and the advent of the internet and the profound impact of television/movies on our cultural perceptions has made the lifestyle a bit more visible and, perhaps, allowed individuals who might never have explored to do so.

On the other hand, the internet and the media do not always give a balanced view of the lifestyle, and the individuals who participate solely in cyberBDSM may have a very skewed picture of the reality of this lifestyle. How many who only participate online, for example, would understand how to maintain the power-exchange when a child is sick, or your mate or dominant becomes permanently ill or injured? Most people in strictly cyberBDSM relationships don't have to deal with the practicalities of making this life into a day-to-day way of life. Therefore, I think that while there is a lot of information, much of it may not be very helpful if an individual has moved out of strictly cyberBDSM relationships into a D/s relationship in the real world where there are jobs, kids, dishes, laundry, bad days at work, forgotten briefcases---well, I think you get my drift.

quote:

3. Do you see the internet improving our life in BDSM in the NEXT 10 years? How do you see YOUR life improving with the use of the internet?


I don't see that it will make much difference in my life, other than the ability to maybe help someone else along the way who is really striving to find his or her way. I am a guide in this lifestyle in the real world, and enjoy having a chance to do so in chat and through lists and messaging, but sometimes being so available actually deters from my life, since so many forms of access mean that I rarely get time to myself anymore. That is why several times a year (this coming weekend, for example), I take 2-3 days in the wilderness, in silence, with no electronics, just to listen and reconnect to the world.

quote:

and (final question)

If the internet was destroyed tomorrow and there was no way to communicate that equals the ease and reach of the internet, would you supplement your desire to live this life by other means (e.g. munches, meetings, play parties, snail-mail mailing lists) or start your own groups and such?


We already participate in these things, and less internet wouldn't really have a huge impact in our offline participation. What we might find ourselves experiencing, though, is a lot more companionable time together. When one or more of us are on the internet, it is a very isolationist experience. In a family like ours, it is important that the internet doesn't take away so much time that we lose our connection with one another. Losing the internet wouldn't deter our experience at all.



quote:

As they say on the ESPN show "Who's #1", LET THE DEBATING BEGIN!

I return you to your regularly scheduled kink,

Z

P.S. I love to write! Thank you all who managed to stay awake for making it down this far! Damn, I'm long winded!


I love to both read and write. Hence surviving grad school and dissertations *laughs*. Glad to meet others who share the pleasure of words.

Lady Zephyr



Soulhuntre -> RE: My attempt to start a discussion (with a bit of a dissertation) (10/4/2005 6:33:30 PM)

p.s. I have a longer entry about this stuff on my blog from a while back..

Cyber/meatspace… the old quandry…

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZandD
1. What FOR YOU are the positive and the negatives regarding BDSM in cyberspace?


The same as they are for any medium of mass communication. There is nothign different about this - peopel complained that letters woudl destroy relationships becaus elovers no longer had to live close together. peopel whined and moaned that the telephone would ruin society as the fine art of "letters" was destroyed.

People, generally, tend to believe that "new fangled" things will ruin it all and pine for "good old days" that never existed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZandD
2. For you pre-internet practitioners of BDSM, has the understanding and practice of BDSM improved since the advent of the internet? If so, how? If not, why?


The free flow of information with few barriers is >always< a good thing for such a community. Of course the understanding and practice have improved.

Hell, some styles of BDSM have been saved by free information flow. During the "dark ages" when the SSC police seemed to be in political ascendency in most of the groups and were working hard to marginalize and shut down any form of play they felt was abusive it was only the free flow of information and communicationt hat coudl not be prevented by petty tinpot dictators at munches and so on that let many people on the edge know they were not alone.

I don't seriously believe anyone can make a strong case that information flow is bad. I am sre there are people who believe libraries are bad and that "book learning" shoudl have been kept to temple priests as well... but they are a fringe.

The other amusing thing is that "online" communication has been a large part of BDSM education and outreach far longer than most people think. BDSM bulleting boards (BBS's) were common in the early 80's (81, 82) and large scale nation wide BDSM chat was there at least as early as 83 (Cumpuserve, GEnie and others).

The BDSM community we have now is the product of more than 20 years of "online" influence. This is nothing recent or new.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZandD
3. Do you see the internet improving our life in BDSM in the NEXT 10 years? How do you see YOUR life improving with the use of the internet?


Of course it will. Free information flow is a good thing. The availability of experiences, discussion, community information, event information, advocacy information and so on will ALWAYS be a good thing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZandD
If the internet was destroyed tomorrow and there was no way to communicate that equals the ease and reach of the internet, would you supplement your desire to live this life by other means (e.g. munches, meetings, play parties, snail-mail mailing lists) or start your own groups and such?


BBS's would explode. Again. People want to communicate... the only effect this has on "real time" groups is that it keeps the self important types in such organizations from being effective at trying to define what the lifestyle is.

Think of all the peoplw, before free communication, who had to conclude they were "sick" or "evil" because the moron who ran their local BDSM groups thought they were too much of a rival to let into his playground and drove them away. That can't happen now.

Open communication diminishes the power of the minority tyrannies. This is good.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedKev
As one of these pre-internet practitoners (thanks now I'm feeling old again) I can't say it has improved, mainly because with the huge influx of people, attitudes change. I can't imagine someone back then wanting to play or be with someone elses sub/slave attempting to go behind the back of that sub/slaves Master. Yet online it happens all the time.


It happened "back then" all the time too. I spend a lot of tiem talkign to the folsk in NYC who stll remember the "old days" before things got open - back to the times when beign a gay leather man meant a beating by the police and jail time. Way, way back.

Even then there was drama, relationship pproblems, wannabe's lyers and cheaters. Nothing has changed. Peopel are people.



Rover -> RE: My attempt to start a discussion (with a bit of a dissertation) (10/4/2005 6:37:32 PM)

Sorry, but your disdain for real time groups is palpable. I can't help but ask what happened to you that you have such a dim view of them, and in which groups did this occur?

John



lonewolf05 -> RE: My attempt to start a discussion (with a bit of a dissertation) (10/4/2005 8:31:14 PM)

ZandD
========
hmm. i will attempt this. i believe, the first thing is, i would not even have known this even existed w/o the net. my bud showed me the net and i got into it after that. i was looking for, 'a' woman, to please, that would allow me to wait on her hand and foot w/o screaming i was smothering her" not for sex. not for kink. that is not why i got in this. TO SERVE is ALL i wanted. and it is ALL i still want. no emotional entanglements.
i am a rock. i am an island unto myself. i keep my own counsel. i stay to myself EXCEPT for rare punishment for small things.

all that said;

positive? reach out and touch someone and learn something i didnt know yesterday.
positive? finding my Domme/Mistress i had the 1st time AND the one i have NOW.
and i made a lifetime buddy with a male dom that he and i talk as equals..

negative? far far too many easy-chair dommes out there runnin their mouth saying too many true-isms.....like as if THEY walk on water? yeah---------right.
negative? far far too much b.s. hype and not enough substance at times in discussions..."gee, i think it should be"...yeah uh huh,..like as if you know it ALL huh?

positive? there IS a LOT of GOOD information and a LOT of good souls out there worth meeting and worth knowing.
positive? just being able to "talk" to people w/o exorbent(s?) phone bills using messaging.

negative? too many people use "the net" as a means to use other people as a means to lie cheat steal and commit frauds never thought of before the-net.
negative? yet again another means to elimnate and destroy the old fashioned sit at the table with coffee and meet your neighbors..we can talk to other countries but not someone 3 feet next door...America no longer has unity...in it's own backyard.

my 2 1/2 cents
have a good day wolf



MasterRobert1 -> RE: My attempt to start a discussion (with a bit of a dissertation) (10/5/2005 6:11:23 AM)

2. For you pre-internet practitioners of BDSM, has the understanding and practice of BDSM improved since the advent of the internet? If so, how? If not, why?
Unfortunately, the out of bullshit and misinformation and fantasy online has far outstripped the good information being sent out into cyberspace. And too many people don't know enough to separte good data from the bullshit and misinformation and fantasy. So real ignorance of BDSM, it's practices and etiquette and rules, has proliferated at an astonishing degree. Oh, there a lot of good that has been disseminated too. But far less than the bad and dangerous misinformation, et cetera. And it is creating some rather unhealthy situations. Unfortunately.



ChereeAmoor -> RE: My attempt to start a discussion (with a bit of a dissertation) (10/5/2005 7:04:13 AM)

Okay, pretty interesting thread here, so I will jump in. Thanks for bringing this up, ZandD!

What for me is the positive regarding BDSM in cyberspace? The sheer amount of readily accessible information.

Negative? all the guys who think that they actually have a prayer of EVER getting into these panties.

I am a pre-internet BDSM'er, but I honestly cannot say if the practice of it has improved since the internet cam along. As far as the understanding, I believe it would naturally have improved, because of the ease of obtaining books, reading articles, and finding like-minded folks just to chat with.

Do I see the internet improving my life in BDSM in the next decade? *laughs* I expect my life will improve daily, and the internet has a little (and sometimes nothing) to do with it. The internet has improved my life with ease and accessibility, everything from ordering books to making travel reservations to checking up on recipes to giving me the news to wasting vast amounts of time playing mindless games. But as far as the BDSM aspect of my life is concerned, nope, it was here before internet and has remained even while we didn't own a computer.

Would I supplement my desire to live this life by other means? Well, no, actually I am the freak of this show. I have never attended a meeting or a play party or a munch, I have never read a book about it, I have never been on a mailing list for it, I have really and truly just wandered happily and ignorantly along with my partners, and it has been working beautifully for years. Incredible, ain't it?



ExistentialSteel -> RE: My attempt to start a discussion (with a bit of a dissertation) (10/5/2005 12:56:23 PM)

Of course the internet has influenced BDSM in a positive way. In my small world, I had done versions of it for years without understanding the art. One person does not see everything. The internet gave me omnivision.



lonewolf05 -> RE: My attempt to start a discussion (with a bit of a dissertation) (10/5/2005 1:40:38 PM)

quote:

Negative? all the guys who think that they actually have a prayer of EVER getting into these panties.

ChereeAmoor
=====

he he giggle smirk..

and some...of us...he he..have our own panties...

oh did i say that...?

omigod

lol
woofie



Soulhuntre -> RE: My attempt to start a discussion (with a bit of a dissertation) (10/5/2005 4:55:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
Sorry, but your disdain for real time groups is palpable. I can't help but ask what happened to you that you have such a dim view of them, and in which groups did this occur?


I love real time groups as a whole. I am very active in my local group (TES) and volunteer my time fairly often in a variety of capacities.

What I despise is the little tinpot emperors who constantly try to direct, define of control them. Usually their main weapon is charges of "abusive" or "unsafe" activity. I also do not believe that a these groups are the best source for information about the variety of BDSM styles available.

I would never feel, for instance, that these groups - especially only local ones if something like the Internet did not exist - should be the "gatekeepers" of the lifestyle is all. I will always be happier when no one person, clique or group can act as a sole point of contact and introduction.




Rover -> RE: My attempt to start a discussion (with a bit of a dissertation) (10/5/2005 6:03:18 PM)

Tinpot emporers are found in all walks of life, and all lifestyles. And (generally speaking), they're equally reviled everywhere.

I know that TES has had its share of political infighting the past few years (not at all uncommon in larger groups where people become motivated to "lead" for less than altruistic reasons), but wasn't aware there was anyone running around branding people "abusive" or "unsafe". That's rather newsworthy (and unfortunate).

Personally, I find real time groups to be (without question) the best sources for B/D S/M information (the internet is currently far too limited in a poster's ability to actually demonstrate or to fully articulate the subleties and nuances of an activity). Nor can the internet (presently) offer supervised, hands-on teaching/ Additionally, online sources are (often, but not always) from anonymous sources of unknown credibility.

As it relates specifically to B/D S/M, the internet can be an incredible source for "ideas", though I'm rather dubious of it as a source for practicle information. Skepticism being a healthy form of safety.

I really don't know what you're referring to when mentioning a single group or clique acting as the "sole point of contact and introduction". I'm not aware of any person, group or clique operating in that manner, but would share your denunciation that such a thing could (should) occur. Isolation is, in my view, the curtain behind which people are manipulated and exploited.

John



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