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Termyn8or -> RE: Anybody with a musical background or software geek (4/4/2008 10:50:20 AM)
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Hans is right, once the music is mixed down it is mixed down. You got two channels only.
With most normally mixed music you can get a Karaoke like output by nulling the L+R component in the vocal range. This may remove some of the other content as well. Also on alot of music it may leave an echo of the original singer's voice. That is because it is a cross echo, that is out of phase. Results of this method vary because not all music is mixed the same.
As far as getting on the other end of this, we were thinking of buying a 16 track digital recorder with the capability to record four tracks at once. Perhaps explaining what we were going to do will give you some insight into what can and can't be done.
I wanted a professional grade recording, so the plan was the song would start with the piano and drums both in full stereo. The piano has a very very good stereo output, not just EQed, but mixed so that if you hit a key to the far right......it just sounds like a real piano. For the drums we were going to get a 4 to 2 or a 6 to 2 mixer to produce the other two channels.
Even the mixdown from the drums would have to be tweaked to get the right balance and generate the two output channels. Once those four tracks are recorded they are mixed and balanced, and once we are happy with it, it is trasnsferred in two channels to other channels, that's why you got 16 or 8. Now the machine is set to play those tracks while simultateously recording more tracks. As we get satisfied with each component of the piece, it is also transferred to a "permanent" track. The other tracks would be bass, probably two guitar tracks and maybe another keyboard track with a completely different voice. If we want to add an instrument that has to be miked, like a sax or something the player would either have to wear headphones to hear the existing tracks, or keep the level down so the track is not too polluted by the already existing material.
The reason getting the balance right is so important is because once the tracks are melded together, there is no way for even us to seperate them. And we generated all of it ! But once the new stuff has been added to the master tracks, which will become the ultimate stereo output for recording, it cannot be removed.
Vocals would be last. There are many reasons for that, the first of which is that it is so easy to screw up. Several tries might be needed. But once the vocal is laid in, it is done, although I would consider a final recording of it without the vocals, which would amount to a true Karaoke type output. There would be no abberations, it would truly be the music without the voice, and that recording is the only way to get it without frequency response and other abberations. It would have all the instruments' in full stereo and with full frequency response. Anything else just will not work.
Most Karaoke disks are actually not performed by the original artist. They are copies by professional musicians and they know what they are doing. They will go get the exact effects boxes for the guitars, tune the drums the same, and even buy a certain keyboard or whatever to imitate the sound accurately.
A company known as DK did exactly that, and they got sued out of business, but I know someone who has the set. Five grand, and there is nobody to sue you.
In the future we might see the availability of sixteen track source, just like certain DVDs can just play the soundtrack, or give you some gnarly options. Although your stereo might only pick up two tracks, via remote you could mix it yourself. It is unlikely they would ever do that, as it would allow you to do what it sounds like you want to do. It sounds like you want to just use certain instruments out of existing material and add your own. Even if something like this were available you would have to have a mixing board and a secondary recorder, and most likely you would be going D>A and then back A>D with the resultant loss of quality, however if you don't do it too many times it should sound fine. A digital recorder is not like a cassette deck, you can get to the third generation of overdubs and it will be fine. With a cassette it would sound like shit.
My Uncle was taught by Les Paul, who also taught Buddy Holly and a few others. He invented overdubbing. Without that technique they could never do in music what they do today. For example, almost any commercial song, the singer is listening to headphones. This is because they do not want the band playing live when there is a necessarily live mike on. This would pollute the track, underminimg their control over the levels. However, you also must mix the track to be recorded into the output so the singer can hear himself. Got to know which knob to turn, because that is not the output you want for that track, the singer ONLY.
As you should be able to see the process, you should understand why certain things are not possible. Even the pros practice their ass of before concerts, know why ? Doesn't seem to make sense when they have a hit, they must know how to do it right ? Well, see in a studio they all get a chance to redo the tracks. They will have a true 16 track that can replace any of the tracks at will. They get as many chances as they need. You don't get that when you perform live.
To get the 16 track we wanted, but could only record four at once, the sub-mixing board for the drums, and the mikes we were looking at maybe five hundred. It never happened because some of us do not have the time. We try to practice once a week but we skipped a few weeks in the bad weather, two guys lost their wheels and this is a three piece band, for now.
Wanted, bass player with bass, amp and SUV lol.
Actually if he doesn't have an amp it's fine of he wants to use a guitar amp, doesn't matter because we aren't going to mike bass, it is going to be a line feed. We might mike a guitar amp, we got some little amps that sound really good with the overdrive.
We got a six hundred watt (two channel !) stereo system to reproduce the piano when the drums are being played, that is why we need four or six very close mikes for the drums alone, to keep the piano from polluting the track. They must hear each other. The drummer is a novice and just needs support when he plays. Other than headphones that is the only way to do it.
Seperating these tracks on the recording end is enough of a hassle, once mixed, forget it. It would be easier to remove the channel logo from a TV show, I am serious.
To remove the channel logo from a TV show you need two DVRs and an inverter (easily built) and you have to freeze one when it is a completely blank screen with the logo. You can then mix the logo signal inverted to cancel it, but of course you have to sync the playback DVR to the signal to be recorded. But with that one frame of the logo only, you got the logo only.
You are not going to get that signal in music. Even if you did it would have to be synced perfectly to null out what you want to remove, and there is no way to do that, unless you have SMPTE equipment, and there is no SMPTE signal in commercial music.
So even if you actually got what you needed which I doubt they would release, but even if someone stole it you would need ten grand in equipment to use it.
It's like when they came out with Bmac, a very sophisticated encoding scheme used for pay per views on the old big satellite dishes. You could buy a board that would decode it illegally and you would have every pay per view sporting event and basically everything with one of these boards. Cost ten grand. If they catch you using it at home the fine would be $25,000, if you, for example own a bar and use it there, the fine is $250,000. Turned out it was better to just pay the five bucks and get it legally.
In the end, my advice is to make your own music. Spend the time to play it the way you want it, and spend the money on one of those digital recorders. It is not an easy process. But you learn alot and that is always good. Plus your material is your's. You may copy certain parts of songs in your work, but you change it enough that you can just call it one of your influences.
And since this is CM, I would very much like to see a musical "perpetrated" by a member, it might be quite interesting :-)
T
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