Zimbabwe's agony (Full Version)

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Level -> Zimbabwe's agony (4/5/2008 4:19:30 AM)

quote:


HARARE, Zimbabwe - Zimbabwe's opposition appealed Saturday for the United Nations to intervene to prevent bloodshed in a runoff election campaign amid fears President Robert Mugabe will use brute force to try to retain power.



Armed police later stopped lawyers acting for the Movement for Democratic Change from entering the High Court to apply for an order forcing the release of presidential election results.



A Reuters correspondent on the scene said three police officers blocked Alec Muchadehama and Andrew Makoni from entering the High Court building.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23951840

I realize Africa may  hold little interest for many in the western world, but I hate what's happened in Zimbabwe. Once known as "bread-basket of Africa", and a solid economy, brutal asshat Robert Mugabe has destroyed this nation, and now that it looks like a fair enough election was held to oust him, the old cocksucker is going to hold on to power one way or the other.




seeksfemslave -> RE: Zimbabwe's agony (4/5/2008 6:06:38 AM)

I'd best say nothing but I would like to hear the views of those that I believe are misguided softies.




LadyEllen -> RE: Zimbabwe's agony (4/5/2008 6:17:30 AM)

There was an article on this on BBC Radio 4 last night. The opinion of the opposition senator who had won his seat in the election was, that Mugabe is actually a prisoner of his underlings. At 84 years old, he's ready for a deal for his retirement, and due to his age is unlikely to face trial for his crimes - but those under him in the police, army etc are very vulnerable to trial should he go, so they are preventing the results being announced and any change in regime which would put them at risk. They need Mugabe to remain in power for their own necks' sake.

E




MasterKalif -> RE: Zimbabwe's agony (4/5/2008 6:23:39 AM)

Zimbabwe is a sad case that depresses me....most people not old enough may think it was always a basket case....however not so. As Level stated, once the bread-basket of Africa, the Jewel of Africa, one of the most prosperous countries in the area....I just don't understand how members of the Army or other elites don't take a stand and take that old cocksucker down as the damage is bad enough and at this stage almost irreparable...(these countries once they go down the drain its very difficult for them to regain the former glory years). If anything for their country which is going down the drain. I for one believe Ian Smith was probably the best Prime Minister that country had, the country should be called Rhodesia and the capital changed back to Salisbury....sounds nice than "Harare"...sorry its my take on it. Read old articles on Rhodesia from the 60's and 70's and see what a prosperous nation it was, exporting by leaps and bounds, its people doing economically well....and when the BS started sometime in the mid-90's when Mugabe showed his true self by being a ruthless inept dictator Britain looked the other way instead of condemning him. Mugabe should be declared persona non-grata in every country and not be allowed to visit Europe at all. Those self-serving corrup regimes are just useless. Bring back Ian Smith from retirement and put him back as Prime Minister, let the re-building begin!




Level -> RE: Zimbabwe's agony (4/5/2008 6:33:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

There was an article on this on BBC Radio 4 last night. The opinion of the opposition senator who had won his seat in the election was, that Mugabe is actually a prisoner of his underlings. At 84 years old, he's ready for a deal for his retirement, and due to his age is unlikely to face trial for his crimes - but those under him in the police, army etc are very vulnerable to trial should he go, so they are preventing the results being announced and any change in regime which would put them at risk. They need Mugabe to remain in power for their own necks' sake.

E


That sounds exactlly right, E. I bet if Mugabe keeled over right now, they'd find a way to take/stay in control, overtly, probably.




LadyEllen -> RE: Zimbabwe's agony (4/5/2008 6:34:33 AM)

Ian Smith died a month or so back - though it didnt stop his name being on the electoral rolls for "some" reason..........

I dont think there's any way or point in turning back the clock - though its clear to me that the best people to run the farms are the white settlers; one of the main reasons its all gone so pear shaped is that the "veterans" who took over the farms dont have the skills and experience to farm successfully. If its politically sensitive to have white settlers owning the farms, make them tenants under the right terms and conditions - one needs food, not ideology to feed the nation. Although in any case, the overt anti-white racism promoted by Mugabe and his followers is every bit as evil an ideology as it has proven to be foolish.

Things can be brought back on track - ten years at the soonest I'd guesstimate, and there is plenty of aid ready to be sent once Mugabe is gone, to fill the gaps. What we have to hope is that unlike so many instances in Africa, the aspiration placed in the new regime does not disappoint.

E




MasterKalif -> RE: Zimbabwe's agony (4/5/2008 6:43:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Ian Smith died a month or so back - though it didnt stop his name being on the electoral rolls for "some" reason..........

I dont think there's any way or point in turning back the clock - though its clear to me that the best people to run the farms are the white settlers; one of the main reasons its all gone so pear shaped is that the "veterans" who took over the farms dont have the skills and experience to farm successfully. If its politically sensitive to have white settlers owning the farms, make them tenants under the right terms and conditions - one needs food, not ideology to feed the nation. Although in any case, the overt anti-white racism promoted by Mugabe and his followers is every bit as evil an ideology as it has proven to be foolish.

Things can be brought back on track - ten years at the soonest I'd guesstimate, and there is plenty of aid ready to be sent once Mugabe is gone, to fill the gaps. What we have to hope is that unlike so many instances in Africa, the aspiration placed in the new regime does not disappoint.

E


LadyEllen,
so well and eloquently put. I was not aware Smith had already passed away...the last remnant of an old by-gone era. I am not saying it is impossible for "Zimbabwe" to bounce back, its just it will take more work now just to reach those levels of economic abundance they had in the 60's-70's...but I think that whole ZANU-PF needs to be removed and wiped out as a political entity as those people all owe their positions and jobs to Mugabe as in any nepotist system...and hence change could not possible come from them. The DMC is the only chance however once Tsvingarai is in power, he could try the same old trick, to stay in power indefinetely and so it all comes to be that people seek power not to change the country or put it on track, but to get a job-to serve their interests. It is all the more worrisome that the opposition seems to be lacking ideas or direction on how to take care of a galloping inflation which at this time is like a joke....

You are right too, the white farmers/settlers had the skills and knowhow to make the country work...kicking them out or killing them is non-sense. I think at any point the opposition is the "lesser" evil....




Level -> RE: Zimbabwe's agony (4/5/2008 6:46:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterKalif

It is all the more worrisome that the opposition seems to be lacking ideas or direction on how to take care of a galloping inflation which at this time is like a joke....



Get Mugabe and his cronies out, accomplish that, and things would almost have to get better just by default.




MasterKalif -> RE: Zimbabwe's agony (4/5/2008 6:48:13 AM)

Level, yes it needs to be done one step at a time, but an inflation of over 5000% (trust me nothing like that has been experienced in the US) does not go away by simple default...




Level -> RE: Zimbabwe's agony (4/5/2008 6:57:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterKalif

Level, yes it needs to be done one step at a time, but an inflation of over 5000% (trust me nothing like that has been experienced in the US) does not go away by simple default...


Agreed. I was thinking more that if he and his cronies are gone, then as Lady E said, there is help waiting to come in. But for sure, there's a lot of work to be done.




meatcleaver -> RE: Zimbabwe's agony (4/5/2008 7:02:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

There was an article on this on BBC Radio 4 last night. The opinion of the opposition senator who had won his seat in the election was, that Mugabe is actually a prisoner of his underlings. At 84 years old, he's ready for a deal for his retirement, and due to his age is unlikely to face trial for his crimes - but those under him in the police, army etc are very vulnerable to trial should he go, so they are preventing the results being announced and any change in regime which would put them at risk. They need Mugabe to remain in power for their own necks' sake.

E


The most damning thing for Africa is that Mugabe is still highly respected, only the other year African leaders gave Mugabe their backing in fighting western sanctions.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article1588679.ece

As long as African leaders find political capital in yesterday's conflicts, Africa is going to remain a basket case and Africans are going to continue to suffer.




celticlord2112 -> RE: Zimbabwe's agony (4/5/2008 7:05:48 AM)

quote:

Get Mugabe and his cronies out, accomplish that, and things would almost have to get better just by default.

Only so long as the replacements aren't as corrupt as Mugabe.  Too often, and not just in Africa, the opposition turns out to be as corrupt as the thugs they oust from power.






Level -> RE: Zimbabwe's agony (4/5/2008 7:11:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Get Mugabe and his cronies out, accomplish that, and things would almost have to get better just by default.

Only so long as the replacements aren't as corrupt as Mugabe.  Too often, and not just in Africa, the opposition turns out to be as corrupt as the thugs they oust from power.


Yeah, you don't want to replace Mugabe with a Zimbabwean Stalin. From what little I know, the opposistion isn't as bad as he is, though. Gotta cross those fingers.




celticlord2112 -> RE: Zimbabwe's agony (4/5/2008 7:21:42 AM)

quote:

As long as African leaders find political capital in yesterday's conflicts, Africa is going to remain a basket case and Africans are going to continue to suffer.

One thing for which I admire Archbishop Desmond Tutu is his work with South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission.  Without minimizing the sins committed during the apartheid era, Archbishop Tutu and the Commission have helped South Africa move past that legacy--and allowed South Africa to maintain one of the largest economies on the African continent.




seeksfemslave -> RE: Zimbabwe's agony (4/5/2008 8:08:26 AM)

Its too late to sing the praises of Iain Smith now.
I bet you lot didnt do so in the late 60's or 70's when he did his best to avoid majority rule.

Dont worry, its not you Liberals that are close to starving is it ?

By the way did you know that Smith was a fighter pilot in the RAF. Not sure he wasn't involved in the Battle of Britain. Thats how he got disfigured. Just thought I'd say that.

The current conventional excuse is that Mugabe wasn't so bad at the start, heard both Lord Carrington and Helen Suzman(sp?) make that point. Smith thought he was, and was right.
Never mind eh.




Termyn8or -> RE: Zimbabwe's agony (4/5/2008 9:15:39 AM)

You don't know the half of it. Since Mugabe took power Whites have been robbed, raped, beaten and killed and they get no help whatsoever from law enforcement. What's more when they pleaded to go to Engalnd, the English government turned a deaf ear.

Y'know that makes it even more clear, it is all part of the plan. England will allow Jose, Umfufu and Kunta to immigrate, but not Henry, James or Mary. What does that tell you ?

I'll admit to racism,but not bigotry, but I have this to say, it was the Whites that made that country into a bread basket. The Blacks simply do not have the skill to run a modern commercial farm there. It is a fact of life. If you can't accept that you not only deny facts that are right in your face, you also gain the label of a bigot, a reverse bigot is a bigot no less. In other words, affirmative action is racial discrimination just the same, only it is like a mirror image.

I knew for years it would come to this. But Mugabe is not much worse than our "Great White Leaders", because we are all going down the tubes.

Get it ? Watch Zimbabwe, you are looking into your own future.

T




Raechard -> RE: Zimbabwe's agony (4/5/2008 12:28:14 PM)

Whenever I see Mugabe I think to myself, "I wish he'd shave that thing off above his lip."




lronitulstahp -> RE: Zimbabwe's agony (4/5/2008 1:03:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

You don't know the half of it. Since Mugabe took power Whites have been robbed, raped, beaten and killed and they get no help whatsoever from law enforcement. What's more when they pleaded to go to Engalnd, the English government turned a deaf ear.

Y'know that makes it even more clear, it is all part of the plan. England will allow Jose, Umfufu and Kunta to immigrate, but not Henry, James or Mary. What does that tell you ?

I'll admit to racism,but not bigotry, but I have this to say, it was the Whites that made that country into a bread basket. The Blacks simply do not have the skill to run a modern commercial farm there. It is a fact of life. If you can't accept that you not only deny facts that are right in your face, you also gain the label of a bigot, a reverse bigot is a bigot no less. In other words, affirmative action is racial discrimination just the same, only it is like a mirror image.

I knew for years it would come to this. But Mugabe is not much worse than our "Great White Leaders", because we are all going down the tubes.

Get it ? Watch Zimbabwe, you are looking into your own future.

T
i don't want another email from Mod 11...so i'll try to hold it together. 
----Fear mongering is a tactic that pricks love to use to validate the fact that they themselves are flawed and filled with hatred.  The inhumane trying to appeal to human-kind.  Throughout history we have examples of the weak clinging to insane ideology as a means of validating themselves in some way.  The actual line of thinking is as close to the  following, "I feel so empty or less than when compared to others inside, so i will try to oppress or vilify another group to give myself some enhancement"  And for the truly ignorant, these seperations we try to impose based on arbitrary things seem significant. 
I hate to always revert to the past, because that sense of living and blaming present people for past people's actions is a way of enabling your kind of hate to continue, and fester.  But since you so assuredly say "It was the Whites"...let me point out that Africa was RICH in natural resources...without any white person's help. It was the Whites that introduced the colonializationa and rape of said resources to fund and further their own countries...and after instigating a downward spiral of land consumption and violence as a means of securing interests for the "mother countries"...left Africa-shellshocked.  The treatment that Africans received as colonies...perhaps was directly related to the darkness of their skin...but that was the past.  People also believed about the time that European nations began invading and pillaging Africa, that the planets revolve around the Earth...so past ignorance in it's proper perspective...
Your craziness doesn't lessen the fact that there are problems in Zimbabwe...that Africa is in crisis...that instability and militarism doon't blend well...but it's not a question of white superiority, as you seem to believe.  You are wrong for using Zimbawe's unfortunate political climate to implicate that all Africans needing asylum will go about harming innocent white people or that ALL blacks are murderous criminals....just because of being in possession of higher levels of melanin.  i find your post ignorant, racist, bigoted, hateful, and total garbage that is part of the problem...and isn't fit to discuss firther.  Shame on you!  And if i am punished because this is somehow against TOS...well it has been worth it because i am angry, and not because i'm black and therefore given to jungle fits of rage...but because i'm a human being who has to raise children in a world that consists of ignorant assholes who think as you do.
edited to add...sorry Level..i hope the thread can continue, as it was pertinent...i can always continue anything else on Cmail.




Level -> RE: Zimbabwe's agony (4/5/2008 2:54:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

You don't know the half of it. Since Mugabe took power Whites have been robbed, raped, beaten and killed and they get no help whatsoever from law enforcement. What's more when they pleaded to go to Engalnd, the English government turned a deaf ear.

Y'know that makes it even more clear, it is all part of the plan. England will allow Jose, Umfufu and Kunta to immigrate, but not Henry, James or Mary. What does that tell you ?


Are you sure that's true? Can any of our CM friends on that side of the pond confirm or negate that?

quote:

The Blacks simply do not have the skill to run a modern commercial farm there.


Why don't they? What prevents them from having said skill?




Level -> RE: Zimbabwe's agony (4/5/2008 2:56:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

sorry Level..i hope the thread can continue, as it was pertinent...i can always continue anything else on Cmail.


No need to apologize, tulip. [;)]




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