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Tantric Massage? - 4/6/2008 10:11:55 AM   
Sunnyfey


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Status: offline 		Anyone know anything about tantric massage? Specifically the neck area?. Suffice it to say I have had a bit of experience with tantra and tantric sexual practise.  I was with a very good friend/play partner of mine last night, and after a long night of gameing with friends we headed off to bed, we laid down to sleep and he started rubbing my neck the base of my skull and sholders. Really sweet of him actually. Not to sound...whats the word, off here or anything. But my energy has been really whacked out lately (not physical..think metaphysical). And during the massage, I felt all of that metaphysical "baggage" let go and disperse itself away. This usally never happens during "just" a massage, I was either projecting really hard last night ( said friend is VERY empathic, so it wouldent suprise me if he caught that) or this friend of mine is a practiseing Tantric...or...hes a natural at it. Im currently trying to figure this all out in my head, I asked him if he knew anything about tantra a few minutes ago but he hasent got online yet to answer my email. Just basically Im just wondering if anyone knew a bit about tantra massage, specifically the neck area who would help me answer some of the lingering question from last night. Thanks all

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RE: Tantric Massage? - 4/6/2008 5:54:01 PM   
cjan


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Status: offline 		OP, I'm a massage therapist who doesn't know very much about "Tantric massage". However, it is not at all unusual for people, in the course of a session with a massage therapist who is focused and present, to have what is called an "emotional release". After all, what is the difference between mind and body ? Where, if anywhere, is the boundary between one and the other ? If they are somehow separate, at least the one certainly affects the other and vice versa.They flow together as if there was a semi-permeable membrane between the two, at least, imo.

So, it's really no surprise that after an experience as intense as the one you seem to have had, you may have had some psychic energy stored in your body tissues as a result. Your friend , it seems, was present and focused and you got the experience you described. Or, maybe he knows something that I don't and was doing Tantra...I dunno about that, of course.


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RE: Tantric Massage? - 4/7/2008 12:04:11 AM   
Shekicromaster


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Status: offline 		It has nothing to do with tantra as even „tantric“ sexual practices don't have much to do with it more often than not. Today wan someone mentions anything „tantric“ , especially on the west, 95% chances are it's just a lot of... well fantasy, just sex with a “spiritual” cover or  manipulation of sects and "teachers" to which girls are especially liable, they get carried away way to easily by either words or feelings. . Damn hippies  

< Message edited by Shekicromaster -- 4/7/2008 12:11:51 AM >

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RE: Tantric Massage? - 4/7/2008 12:34:18 AM   
Shekicromaster


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Status: offline 		For something more serious about tantra works of this guy though old are a good start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Woodroffe

But to practice it you would need a real original Indian tantric guru (not the usual jet set gurus running after money and girls) which I doubt it is that easy to find. And anyway it is not about sex at all, that is a misconception. Of the tantric traditions vama marga/ vamachara ones have some maithuna (sexual) practices ( a lot of tantric schools are typically yogic and not interested in maithuna) but that is controlled, usually the guru is present and it is done in a ritualized manner, with a certain purpose, after a lot of spiritual practice and with a lot of self-control. Interesting though is how much less interest is there in other left hand tantric practices like those dealing with corpses for example :D   So don't be fooled, it is all just about sex, not tantra. No doubt there are useful methods applicable to our sexual life but it is still sexology with a few borrowed yogic techniques, not tantra.

< Message edited by Shekicromaster -- 4/7/2008 12:37:30 AM >

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RE: Tantric Massage? - 4/7/2008 12:35:21 AM   
Shekicromaster


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< Message edited by Shekicromaster -- 4/7/2008 12:39:37 AM >

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RE: Tantric Massage? - 4/7/2008 12:41:20 AM   
Demspotis


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Status: offline 		To continue and clarify another post in the thread: "tantra" is actually a genre of scripture in Hinduism and in Mahayana Buddhism. Most of them, if not all, share in common that they talk about theologies in which there are male and female consort deities. This genre of scripture is basically manuals of doctrine and practice for self-realization, mainly mantra, prayer, meditation and ritual, meant for the post-Vedic age. In Hinduism, tantras are connected with the three main branches: Vaishnava (they consider Vishnu to be God), Shaiva (consider Shiva to be God), and Shakta (they consider the Goddess to be Supreme). Often the Vaishnava tantras are called "pancharatras", and often Shaiva tantras are called "agamas". Out of the many tantras, a small number teach that practitioners should do various things that are contrary to normal social rules, and a few of them teach that practitioners should directly emulate, and visualize themselves as, the deity pairs. Some of them, furthermore combine those two things, so that their practitioners engage in meditations in which they engage in sexual relations with people other than their spouses, imagining themselves and their partners to be the deity and consort respectively. In any case, it is these tantras that preach socially abnormal behavior that are, for some reason, much more well known in the "West", and which people have given the much more general label of Tantric to. We can see another kind of Tantric meditation in the "White Tantric Yoga" that is part of the Kundalini Yoga tradition. In that version, people practice in male female pairs, but there is no sexual contact involved, nor does it involve visualization of oneself as a deity. Most tantras teach completely  "respectable" practices.

Sometimes people confuse the instructions in the Kama-sutra and similar books with "Tantra", but they are not. The Kama-sutra is a relationship- and sex-manual, while tantras are manuals of mantra, prayer, meditation, and ritual. To put it in another way, Kama-sutra, and similar books, are about having a good time in this world. Tantras are about achieving higher states, hopefully the very highest states of existence... thus leading to having the best time of all, permanently. 

But, the original post asks about Tantric massage. As far as I know, technically speaking, there is no such thing. However, massage IS very important in the cultural context that Tantra and Kama-sutra both also come from, and to some extent everything is connected. Massage is especially part of Ayurveda, which is India's traditional medical science and system. Now, considering that this is coming from a society with highly advanced knowledge of the body, its potentials and its uses, for both material and spiritual purposes, it is highly unlikely that there would not be techniques of massage available that would have deeply sexual and psychological effects such as are implied in describing massage as "Tantric" given the common meaning of the word in the West. Unfortunately, massage is not one of the part of Indian culture that I have studied, so unlike with the other things I've said, I don't know for certain whether such techniques are really there, but I would surprised if they are not.   

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RE: Tantric Massage? - 4/7/2008 1:06:51 AM   
Sunnyfey


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Status: offline 		my starting point with Tantra was an old friend of mine who had started actually living the tantric lifestyle (aka not the sex part...though his relationship with his lady did grow by leaps and bounds then..im assumeing on my part they did those partices also, but not JUST that part of it) and I still tot his day use those meditations he tought me. Its all really interesting, and even before my experience last night, i have been thinking seriously about looking more indepth into this particular lifestyle. Anyway suffice it to say had a conversation with said friend, and surprise surprise, he know what it is and what he was doing. He was surprise I even knew what it was. Funny how life works out huh?

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RE: Tantric Massage? - 4/7/2008 6:32:23 AM   
cjan


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quote:

To continue and clarify another post in the thread: "tantra" is actually a genre of scripture in Hinduism and in Mahayana Buddhism. Most of them, if not all, share in common that they talk about theologies in which there are male and female consort deities.


I'd like to correct one thing you've said in your post. I have been a practicing Buddhist for many years now and have worked with many well known and credentialed teachers. In Buddism, (Mahayana ,Vinayana, Theravada ( with the possible exception of Tibetan Buddhism which regards certain entities as having certain godlike powers, yet not exactly deities),there is no theology and, in fact, no "deities"of any kind.


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RE: Tantric Massage? - 4/7/2008 11:20:59 PM   
Shekicromaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan
I'd like to correct one thing you've said in your post. I have been a practicing Buddhist for many years now and have worked with many well known and credentialed teachers. In Buddism, (Mahayana ,Vinayana, Theravada ( with the possible exception of Tibetan Buddhism which regards certain entities as having certain godlike powers, yet not exactly deities),there is no theology and, in fact, no "deities"of any kind.

True but in popular Buddhism even Budha becomes almost a deity.
Anyway are there not in some Mahayana traditions „deities“ in the form of bodhisattvas as there are heavens and hells too and even devotional type of practices (pure land for example)? But of Buddhist tantrism the Tibetan version is actually the main exponent and the most prominent representative of vajrayana (Shingon too but it's less popular in the west) so I suppose he actually was talking about that.

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RE: Tantric Massage? - 4/8/2008 12:06:56 AM   
Shekicromaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunnyfey

my starting point with Tantra was an old friend of mine who had started actually living the tantric lifestyle (aka not the sex part...though his relationship with his lady did grow by leaps and bounds then..im assumeing on my part they did those partices also, but not JUST that part of it) and I still tot his day use those meditations he tought me. Its all really interesting, and even before my experience last night, i have been thinking seriously about looking more indepth into this particular lifestyle. Anyway suffice it to say had a conversation with said friend, and surprise surprise, he know what it is and what he was doing. He was surprise I even knew what it was. Funny how life works out huh?


Or he was trying to get laid :D :D  

Well I don’t know that friend and therefore can not comment and know what he was practicing, but I’m always skeptical about tantrism in the west.

Actually probably the best way to get in contact with real tantra is trough Tibetan Buddhism though even there you have to be careful and check your sources.  

There is a joke:

Q: How do I become a Lama?

A: Go to a monastic university and study for twenty-five years. Begin by memorizing Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakosha with its commentary (500 pages or so). Then study what you have memorised by hearing lectures on it and debating the contents with other candidates until you can argue every side of every controversy equally well. Then memorise several works of Nagarjuna, along with their commentaries. Then memorise the seven treatises of Dharmakirti. In additional to that study, you must master several forms of meditation and study tantric rituals for about two or three years.

Alternatively, you can come to America and just call yourself a lama. Billions of nubile virgins will follow you everywhere and give you money.

Most of what people are doing in the name of tantra is more sort of a new age mixed bullshit, excuse the language.  As with other “pop spirituality” after all.

Compare for example the “jet-set kabala” and the original Jewish one. I have a Jew friend who comes from a kabalistic tradition and well, it is a rather different thing. To begin with you can start to study kabala only when you are about 50 years old, after you are done with worldly duties (family) and more important after you have studied the scriptures (Torah etc) , the language etc to the core. As a lot of kabala is based on language/sounds/words/letters you probably can’t even start without being proficient in Hebrew and of course the scriptures. 

It is the same everywhere. It takes 5-10 years to even begin to understand the traditions, the basics and the background of a spiritual traditions (especially the exotic ones, that is the ones not form the same cultural background and mentality as you ).
I find it difficult to understand the superficial and uninformed getting into something you don’t really understand at all just because “meditation”, “yoga”, “kabala” is “in”. 

And tantra is no joke, but fortunately most of it is no tantra at all. Spiritual practices in general are not a children’s play, but especially so for those aiming at a more direct and in a way “physical” arousal of kundalini shakti. I’m not sure things like hatha yoga, especially more advanced practices of mudra/bandha/pranayama/kriya should be learned that easily by instructors of questionable qualifications. The same goes for tantra. Hatha can actually be considered an offspring of the dakshina marga (right hand) of tantra.  

I’ve seen people (even good friends) get in trouble because of abruptive kundalini processes.  And I mean really in trouble like remaining a psychiatric case for the rest of their life; I also know of (but not personally) two cases of people spending their lives in wheelchairs and beds because of that. But what can happen in your mind is much worse than the body.
Such practices should NEVER be done without a teacher, and a good one that has completed the sadhanas, knows well all the pitfalls and can help you in trouble, certainly not the “Deepak Chopra” jet-set types with a bigger mouth than spiritual practice and all to ready to turn their blissful faces and vegetarian smiles away from you if something of the sort happens that might compromise their carefully guarded images and bank accounts. 
And even if you think someone is qualified enough you should screen him/her for a few years with complete disregard of any eventual hype, nice books and enthusiastic disciples. Even better is to stay away, there are much more secure spiritual disciplines. But if really interested than one should spend some years in research, reading the original scriptures, screening the scene, reading about personal experiences of patricians (both good and bed ones) and so on. Only when one has a background and knows what he is doing should he start searching for a qualified teacher (if one can be found at all). After that you can consider actually practicing it. Otherwise it is just good luck if you get on the right track.  

I suppose one of the reasons for being attracted to “exotic” forms of spirituality is actually not being acquainted with this traditions, scriptures and  the cultural and historical  background which allows as to make our own fantasies about it or to be fooled by bogus „authorities“.  So when we don't like for example strict moral standards of the established religions we start looking for more exotic paths. And we start practicing for example yoga blissfully ignorant of the fact that even stricter requirements are there (and teachers looking for fame being all to ready to sell what we want to buy). Take just the initial chapters of Yoga Sutras of Patanjali (Yama and Nyama) that is a basic text of Raja yoga or the Hatha Yoga Pradipika – a basic text of hatha yoga. You are required to live almost as an ascetic saint before even starting to practice it. There are no shortcuts, there are no free meals and results without sacrifices. You can't eat cakes and seat in front of the TV night and day and have a fit body and you can’t advance spiritually and not have discipline and moral integrity along with the esoteric practices. Even tantra is not about „sacred sexuality“ „multiple orgasms“, „tantrik massages“ and the crap like that.  Sex is there as a tool used only in a small part of all tantric traditions and there under supervision of the guru with the partner he chooses, after a long period of preparatory yogic practices and so on. So if one is practicing tantra or in general some "kundalini intensive“ practices on his own he is either not actually practicing it but just calls it that way or is playing a potentially dangerous game comparable to a “couch potato” getting into weightlifting  with no preparation before that. Risky.

< Message edited by Shekicromaster -- 4/8/2008 12:24:27 AM >

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RE: Tantric Massage? - 4/8/2008 12:21:51 AM   
Shekicromaster


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< Message edited by Shekicromaster -- 4/8/2008 12:23:08 AM >

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RE: Tantric Massage? - 4/8/2008 1:12:14 AM   
Sunnyfey


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Status: offline 		and point well taken. Well dang..guess I need to do some more reading then. And when I said "he knew what he was doing" I ment that more in the he knows ABOUT it, not in the "jet set Lama" sort of way...though this has me thinking ALOT. interesting interesting

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RE: Tantric Massage? - 4/8/2008 1:23:16 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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Status: offline 		The subject of Tantra has already been covered by those who are much more knowledgeable than I.

Maybe "sensual massage" is a better term. I have a date tomorrow night with a woman with whom I seem to have quite a bit in common. You all know how all kinds of stuff runs through your mind. Conversations, expectations, follow-up, and so on. Well, I was laying in my bed surrounded by my herd of pillows this afternoon thinking about what, if any, physical interaction I wouldn't mind seeing at some point in the future, and I finally settled on a nice, sensual,  massage.

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