RE: discipline or abuse (Full Version)

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misskittyslave -> RE: discipline or abuse (10/8/2005 9:28:21 PM)

A few months ago i was hanging out with a dominant and he and i were discussing this very issue...He posed this question to me and several other submissives and generally there were three responses

QUESTION if your dom/me said walk in front of that moving bus what would your reaction be

RESPONSE A FU no way that will get me killed
RESPONSE B as You wish Master
RESPONSE C of course Master because i know that You would do nothing that would get me killed

Upon further examination of these responses... A displays a lack of trust in their dominant not willing to risk getting killed not beleiving that the dominant can or is willing to take care of them, response B doesnt take responsability for themselves and would go off and do something so endangering because they were told to (the group that is a prime target for abuse and group C who has the ability to know that T/their relationship is trustworth and safe risky yes but safe they would say yes because they know that their dominant would never ask them to kill themselves to please Him/Her

i am often accused of living by my ideology and under "rose colored glasses" perhaps that is because Master M would ensure my safety and i am aware that if HE told me to do somethin gi could do it knowing He would stop short before i was injured. then again that is my relationship. what about the other relationships however? what happens to those submissives the ones in group B

someone said in one of their responses that a dominant is the bdsm realm is the same as a dominant in the rest of the world perhaps i do not understand that one bit. perhaps i am confusing a dominant personality with a dictatorship the difference between someone who deserves to be yielded to and someone who whether you like it or not takes what they want with flagrant disregard for anything around them and where there are no principles except those that would please them. a dominant personality to me is one that is strong can control a situation unlike the dictatorship i forescribed

of course if a sub is happy and agrees to what is going on then it is not abuse..i am sure if i went to the doctor after some of my scenes W/we might be misinterpreted as something that is domestic violence in the nilla realm but that is different than me being taken in on a stretcher and out to the coroner because the dominant is "evil" and didnt protect me. Personally i play hard. Others play harder and i see nothing wrong in that either, still others cannot fathom how i can endure what i do in a scene that is... still i feel, everyone missing the point here....

in psychology class our lifestyle can be considered some sort of phelia at times alright fine that said when does it become a phelia? when it is no longer pleasing and interferes and becomes problematic with daily life functions in a dibilitaing way. that is the pont of view i am looking at when a relationship becomes dabilitating when it is no longer healthy and interferes in ones ability to function ie broken unrepairable dead emotionally or physically this is the point and no one has the right to do so to another

safe sane consentual lets examine this a bit especially to those that "dont believe in it"
safe -when no permanant damage occurs to someone mentally or physically
sane- a much harder thing to interpret but generally in my view if you are able to distinguish what will prevent permanant harm and what will not that is sane if you lose sight of that there is a problem
consentual- can i guess that most of U/us at least agree to this? willing participants



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: discipline or abuse (10/8/2005 9:33:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave
in psychology class our lifestyle can be considered some sort of phelia at times alright fine that said when does it become a phelia?

Do you mean "philia"?

quote:

safe -when no permanant damage occurs to someone mentally or physically

Define "damage"? Does this cancel out plastic surgery? Pregnancy? Brands? Tattoos? Piercings? Allowing a slave to smoke long term?
quote:


sane- a much harder thing to interpret but generally in my view if you are able to distinguish what will prevent permanant harm and what will not that is sane if you lose sight of that there is a problem

Well there's a lot of psycho killers who can determine what will prevent permanent harm and what won't...
quote:


consentual- can i guess that most of U/us at least agree to this? willing participants

Including beasts and those under 18? Willing after having a gun put to their head? Willing when they are being lied to and don't know it? Willing meaning they don't fight?



misskittyslave -> RE: discipline or abuse (10/8/2005 10:37:30 PM)

quote:

Do you mean "philia"?
yes spelling is not my forte glad you reminded me [;)]

Define "damage"? Does this cancel out plastic surgery? Pregnancy? Brands? Tattoos? Piercings? Allowing a slave to smoke long term?

please do not try to be obtuse on a serious topic...things that will cause irreparable DAMAGE HARM like loss of use of some part of you that is required ie eyes hearing mind legs ribs etc.


"Well there's a lot of psycho killers who can determine what will prevent permanent harm and what won't... "
yes there are and there were some girls that fell for him and wound up chopped up into little bits in his barrels a few years ago but according to some of the people i have encountered of late they got what they deserved and wanted it


"Including beasts and those under 18? Willing after having a gun put to their head? Willing when they are being lied to and don't know it? Willing meaning they don't fight?"

wiling meaning desiring wanting to comply able to cognitively choose

NOTE
there are sometimes when i have no patience for people who are deliberately missing a point out of spite. i feel this is one of those times.

it is quite frightening after reading some responses here that so many condone abusive behaviors i told someone's girlfriend (it was someone who i had a relationship many years ago with who WAS abusive and gave me permanent neck injury) when the time comes and he hurts you and HE WILL no matter what attitude and belief you have now about him and i ...dont worry i wont turn my back on you and will provide you and your children saftety. i stand behind that.

it is easy to be flippant when you are in a good relatinship...i have been in a magnificant one for three years now HOWEVER i do remember when i wasnt so fortunate and i reach out to those who were in the same place i was in once upon a time. i dont have rose colored glasses i have seen what can happen...i have been on both sides of that fence a relationship that is M/s and a relationship that uses that title to abuse their property.



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: discipline or abuse (10/8/2005 11:08:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave
please do not try to be obtuse on a serious topic...things that will cause irreparable DAMAGE HARM like loss of use of some part of you that is required ie eyes hearing mind legs ribs etc.

I'll stop being obtuse once you stop being holier-than-thou and acting like your definitions are obvious and perfect. Trust me, most of us who don't use "SSC" have been through the whole "what SSC means" discussion probably a dozen times or so and so you're very unlikely to bring up any new issue or idea (though I'd be happy if you did).

That doesn't mean this discussion isn't valid and useful. Plenty of people, specially newbies, have NOT heard these arguments and learned them by rote yet, and it will be useful for them to see how NOT useful saying "I'm SSC" really is.

See, you've already further modified your first definition. It's still flawed for the same reasons I listed beforehand (like the smoking).
quote:


yes there are and there were some girls that fell for him and wound up chopped up into little bits in his barrels a few years ago but according to some of the people i have encountered of late they got what they deserved and wanted it

Hmm no, we're saying people need to take responsibility for the risks that they choose to take and not blame someone else. For example your safe word idea that a sub can accept responsibility for a safeword, then, in mid-scene, abdicate responsibility withOUT telling the dom, and yet the dom is still the bad one because he didn't "know" that she needed to stop.

Of course it's usually wrong when someone else kills another person without their consent.

But again, that wasn't the point of your statement. The point of your statement was defining "sane" to be "knowing when your actions will harm someone and when they won't"

Insane, or incompetent people are quite capable of understanding that their actions will harm others and that they won't. Abusers are quire capable of understanding this as well.

quote:

wiling meaning desiring wanting to comply able to cognitively choose

Again, under 18 falls under this, a person with a gun to their head DESIRES to live and thus agrees to do the act, whether we want to believe dogs can cognitively choose is an issue up for debate.
quote:


there are sometimes when i have no patience for people who are deliberately missing a point out of spite. i feel this is one of those times.

You're not used to good philosophical debates are you? This isn't devil's advocate, this isn't straw-men. This is you putting forth your ideas and us poking holes in those ideas to show you and others how what you're saying doesn't really work out.

Your choice is then to ignore it, present new ideas, present variations of your old ideas, or describe how our own points don't really work out.
quote:


it is quite frightening after reading some responses here that so many condone abusive behaviors

Abusive by whose definition?

quote:

i have been on both sides of that fence a relationship that is M/s and a relationship that uses that title to abuse their property.

Yeah see the problem isn't you being a good hearted person and helping people out.

The moment you set yourself up as the authority on what is abuse and what is not for anyone else is really where you set yourself up for major unnecessary annoyance.



obis -> RE: discipline or abuse (10/9/2005 12:54:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave
QUESTION if your dom/me said walk in front of that moving bus what would your reaction be
RESPONSE A FU no way that will get me killed
... A displays a lack of trust in their dominant not willing to risk getting killed not beleiving that the dominant can or is willing to take care of them...
i am often accused of living by my ideology and under "rose colored glasses" perhaps that is because Master M would ensure my safety and i am aware that if HE told me to do somethin gi could do it knowing He would stop short before i was injured. then again that is my relationship.
...
it is quite frightening after reading some responses here that so many condone abusive behaviors...i dont have rose colored glasses i have seen what can happen...


With all due respect, your rose-colored glasses are glowing bright pink at the moment. You were in an abusive relationship, yet you state quite baldly that a sub who is unwilling to step in front of a moving vehicle on command is suffering from lack of trust, because of course your current Master M would never ever let the vehicle actually hit you? Was there never a time in your previous relationship where you felt just as sincerely that your then-master would protect you? Either you trusted him at some point (and were wrong to do so), or you were with someone who you didn't trust, and either way it doesn't speak highly of your authority on the topic of avoiding abuse.

If I tell a sub to put a gun to her head and pull the trigger, it's a safe bet that the gun is unloaded. But I would still consider her to be incredibly stupid if she did it. I feel pretty comfortable saying here that in all relationships, no matter how much you trust the person, if they give you an arbitrary command that will likely end your life within seconds, you should tell them to go to hell, walk out the door and never come back. That is, if you want to live to a ripe old age.



misskittyslave -> RE: discipline or abuse (10/9/2005 1:33:20 AM)

quote:


Hmm no, we're saying people need to take responsibility for the risks that they choose to take and not blame someone else. For example your safe word idea that a sub can accept responsibility for a safeword, then, in mid-scene, abdicate responsibility withOUT telling the dom, and yet the dom is still the bad one because he didn't "know" that she needed to stop.


i have ALWAYS agreed that both parties share responsability i am saying that there are times however when someone is dabilitated and cannot safeword a dominant who is controlling the situation should make sure that they are capable of calling it for the sub in need....for instance i was talking to a dominant and She told me of a husband/wife M/s relatinship been together 18 years in the scene He was tied up gagged and they had done this many times before however this time something went wrong...and he died of a heart attack. since that time my friend decided She herself not only the sub should have a safeword...

Again, under 18 falls under this, a person with a gun to their head DESIRES to live and thus agrees to do the act, whether we want to believe dogs can cognitively choose is an issue up for debate.
quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2
the dog thing while i find it unacceptable for me well i know others are into beastiality but minors have no right to consent under the law therefore adults have no recourse but to take full responsability for that though i know some pretty mature teenagers they still should not be engaging in this until over 18 my personal choice is over 21 and i choose to not play unless they are somewhere closer to my own age but that is a preference. (some are into may/december and that is fine just not my taste but there is nothing wrong with it and i even am friends with some that are very happy i also cannot see myself in a relationship that is not poly while others are only into monogomy each person is different and that is what makes this world so much fun)

Abusive by whose definition?
what constitutes abuse in general is when it causes irreperable damage against ones will or consent does that make more sense of what constitues abuse?



misskittyslave -> RE: discipline or abuse (10/9/2005 1:54:45 AM)



With all due respect, your rose-colored glasses are glowing bright pink at the moment. You were in an abusive relationship, yet you state quite baldly that a sub who is unwilling to step in front of a moving vehicle on command is suffering from lack of trust, because of course your current Master M would never ever let the vehicle actually hit you? Was there never a time in your previous relationship where you felt just as sincerely that your then-master would protect you? Either you trusted him at some point (and were wrong to do so), or you were with someone who you didn't trust, and either way it doesn't speak highly of your authority on the topic of avoiding abuse.


ACTUALLY because i learned the difference between a healthy relationship and an abusive one and have experienced both i think i am pretty qualified (forgive the arrogance but it took a hell of a lot to get where i am today from where i was 16 years ago)abusers have sterotypical behaviors in general and i mean in general not all follow the same exact ways the honeymoon stage the anger stage the blame stage the remorse stage the honeymoon stage etc etc etc. also i got out of the relationship on my own rather quickly when i noticed one time is forgivable to hurt someone twice is a pattern and with me no one gets a third chance no matter how forgiving and kind i am. even smart wel educated people can be fooled sometimes it happens....the strong ones get out fast as possible and dont let it continue.

i read a poem the other day called i got flowers today ...it begins where they have a fight she gets hit he brings her flowers she forgives him it continues on and on until she said i got flowers today but i cant see them they were at my funeral.

If I tell a sub to put a gun to her head and pull the trigger, it's a safe bet that the gun is unloaded. But I would still consider her to be incredibly stupid if she did it. I feel pretty comfortable saying here that in all relationships, no matter how much you trust the person, if they give you an arbitrary command that will likely end your life within seconds, you should tell them to go to hell, walk out the door and never come back. That is, if you want to live to a ripe old age.
[/quote]

i remember one time when i was much younger a Dom and His sub who i had known since i was young were t the marina...she was in trouble for something and he ordered her to do something as punishment that was innappropriate...she started to act like she was going to comply and most likely would have but He said no...it was to prove a point and two points were made one was that He would keep her safe and two that she could trust that even in punishment no harm would befall her.

like i said ive been in this life since i was 19 years old i have seen alot not all but alot both good and bad. my desire is to encourage good relationships and to help those realize when they are not so good that there is a better way and that not just because you desire to serve should you be used in a hurtful way. and by hurtful i dont mean pain but damaging meaning beyond repair. make sense?



pinkpleasures -> RE: discipline or abuse (10/9/2005 2:20:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kasia


quote:

ORIGINAL: lonewolf05

why can't You Ladies be nice




Really, lonewolf, give me one good reason to be nice to someone if I dont feel like being nice. In fact, I am not nice person at all and I dont care if anyone is nice to me.
What I expect from myself and people around me is honesty and respect (in general and earned). Why should I be nice? I see no use in being nice.

What I expect from myself and people around me is honesty and respect (in general and earned). Why should I be nice? I see no use in being nice.

Kasia


i agree with the value of honesty (in speaking one's mind, bearing in mind all we have to offer is our own opinion); but i disagree that being nice has no value. When posting, it is possible to frame one's words in a mirade of ways and it is not a kind world; it takes but a little editing to be sure we have not attacked someone.

As for the Op post -- right on. A subby might be confused about whether she is with a real Dominant or an abuser and perhaps someone will read your post and begin breaking away from an abuser.

pinkpleasures



ownedjulia -> RE: discipline or abuse (10/9/2005 6:40:21 AM)

"abuse"

Such a difficult word to intepret in the BDSM world.

I am abused by my Master. He likes to cane me, flog me and do other things to me that the vanilla world would have pegged as abuse yet i accept these things as part of being a slave.

i have been told by other subs that my Master MAY be abusing me because of certain other things he has ordered me to do and i have gone along willingly (or semi williningly).

i am his slave. i obey him. this is not abuse, this is a slave obeying her Master.

Saying that, There are some things that i would draw the line at and so would he. underage is a classic example, there is no WAY on gods green earth that either of us would ever contemplate involving a minor.

Abuse, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.



misskittyslave -> RE: discipline or abuse (10/9/2005 8:17:04 AM)

julia
this is very true i have heard the same thing about Master M's relationship and mine...kitty you are being abused...no i do not feel i am...it is in my eyes i am not because i know i have consented to being His slave and consented to obeying Him whether i like it or not but again like you also said there is a fine line between dominance and abuse. that is why i have stated that abuse is when a slave is permnently damaged emotionally or physically (ie the classic example you mentioned of involving a minor is abusive to the minor further emotional abuse might include driving a slave to a nervous breakdown, taking all their money so that they cannot support themselves if they ever chose to leave (ie making it impossible to leave on choice) physical abuse is a little harder to determine when one enjoys or at least has agreed to being caned but i feel permanent physical harm or perhaps long term hosptial care such as broken limbs brain damage from being hit in the head things of that nature (other things of course are included but those are some examples)



ownedjulia -> RE: discipline or abuse (10/9/2005 8:22:11 AM)

exactly kittyslave,

there are things i do for my Master that i really don't like or enjoy but then again but part of being his slave is to graciously do those things that he has ordered me to do.

And for those wondering, one of the things i utterly HATE that he makes me do is........ the ironing. [:D]



misskittyslave -> RE: discipline or abuse (10/9/2005 9:03:48 AM)

julia
the one thing i HATE that Master has me do is exercise i swear that is the most sadistic thing in the universe listening to peppy people at 5 or 6 am with so much energy.....i rather scrub a toilet or be flogged any day of the week...lol



KittenWithaTwist -> RE: discipline or abuse (10/9/2005 1:35:13 PM)

*Quickie Comment:

A dominant does not need a safeword in a play situation. If he or she does not enjoy the way the play is progressing, he or she stops. For that matter, the submissive does not need a safeword in a play situation. If he or she does not enjoy the way the play is progressing, he or she lets the dominant know, and the two determine the next step. If a sentence cannot be expressed, due to gags, a hand signal may be appropriate. But if you can scream out "Red" then you can also scream out "Ow, it hurts my arm when you do that" or "I need to stop now."



Soulhuntre -> RE: discipline or abuse (10/9/2005 2:10:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
too often (particularly online, as that is really the only place i encounter such beliefs/values), many in this lifestyle seem to confuse what it means to be a good or perhaps "honorable" Dominant, with what it means to simply be a Dominant.


There is a general tendency in the community, online and off, to try and re-define words to suit their own prejudices.

Thanks for the post :)



IronBear -> RE: discipline or abuse (10/9/2005 2:34:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soulhuntre


quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
too often (particularly online, as that is really the only place i encounter such beliefs/values), many in this lifestyle seem to confuse what it means to be a good or perhaps "honorable" Dominant, with what it means to simply be a Dominant.


There is a general tendency in the community, online and off, to try and re-define words to suit their own prejudices.



Thanks for the post :)


Not just in the community. it happens all the time and everywhere I go.. Ofter used in power politics or in the old game of "One Upmanship"

Edited to add: It works on the principle "Bullshit baffles brains".



Soulhuntre -> RE: discipline or abuse (10/9/2005 8:48:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave
safe sane consentual lets examine this a bit especially to those that "dont believe in it"


quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave
safe -when no permanant damage occurs to someone mentally or physically


I disagree. I consider a activity "safe" when the chances of serious injury are sufficiently small that I consider them reasonable and managed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave
sane- a much harder thing to interpret but generally in my view if you are able to distinguish what will prevent permanant harm and what will not that is sane if you lose sight of that there is a problem


That is not, IMHO, a useful working definition of "sane".

quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave
consentual- can i guess that most of U/us at least agree to this? willing participants


Consent comes in many flavors, both conscious and not.



luvdragonx -> RE: discipline or abuse (10/10/2005 1:04:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave

A few months ago i was hanging out with a dominant and he and i were discussing this very issue...He posed this question to me and several other submissives and generally there were three responses

QUESTION if your dom/me said walk in front of that moving bus what would your reaction be

RESPONSE A FU no way that will get me killed
RESPONSE B as You wish Master
RESPONSE C of course Master because i know that You would do nothing that would get me killed

Upon further examination of these responses... A displays a lack of trust in their dominant not willing to risk getting killed not beleiving that the dominant can or is willing to take care of them, response B doesnt take responsability for themselves and would go off and do something so endangering because they were told to (the group that is a prime target for abuse and group C who has the ability to know that T/their relationship is trustworth and safe risky yes but safe they would say yes because they know that their dominant would never ask them to kill themselves to please Him/Her


Could it be that A. IS taking responsibility for herself, where her own sense of self-preservation and worth supercede the supposed trust in her Dom? Especially when it comes to a request to walk in front of a bus. Maybe that is the response the Dom wants - to know that his sub can take care of and think for herself where her life is concerned.

Maybe B is the sub who has committed herself to her Dom 100% and she is perfectly happy doing whatever he wishes, even if it means her own demise. That would demonstrate unconditional trust and obedience, which is something that a lot of Doms want as well.

C would be the one to worry about because she is acting on a belief that may or may not be true - that her Dominant would never get her killed. He may not intend to kill her, that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

quote:


i am often accused of living by my ideology and under "rose colored glasses" perhaps that is because Master M would ensure my safety and i am aware that if HE told me to do somethin gi could do it knowing He would stop short before i was injured. then again that is my relationship. what about the other relationships however? what happens to those submissives the ones in group B


Like I said before, that is the relationship YOU have, and since it works for you that's great. Refer back to my take on groups B and C. What happens to them? Why, whatever they allow. Each adult is responsible for their choices, and those other subs who are not like you will live the consequences of their choices, whatever they may be. If you want to use your relationship as an example of how a relationship CAN be, that's fair. But to suggest that relationships that aren't like yours are somehow flawed or wrong or dangerous is overstepping.

quote:


someone said in one of their responses that a dominant is the bdsm realm is the same as a dominant in the rest of the world perhaps i do not understand that one bit. perhaps i am confusing a dominant personality with a dictatorship the difference between someone who deserves to be yielded to and someone who whether you like it or not takes what they want with flagrant disregard for anything around them and where there are no principles except those that would please them. a dominant personality to me is one that is strong can control a situation unlike the dictatorship i forescribed


You probably answered your own question. Dominance in BDSM is not the same as dictatorship (defined). Dominance is dominance regardless of the setting. The difference comes in how it's exercised.

quote:


of course if a sub is happy and agrees to what is going on then it is not abuse..i am sure if i went to the doctor after some of my scenes W/we might be misinterpreted as something that is domestic violence in the nilla realm but that is different than me being taken in on a stretcher and out to the coroner because the dominant is "evil" and didnt protect me. Personally i play hard. Others play harder and i see nothing wrong in that either, still others cannot fathom how i can endure what i do in a scene that is... still i feel, everyone missing the point here....


No, we get it. You do things in a way that works for and that you understand and can live with. What's being missed is that not everyone assigns the same level of responsibility to Doms that you do.

quote:


in psychology class our lifestyle can be considered some sort of phelia at times alright fine that said when does it become a phelia? when it is no longer pleasing and interferes and becomes problematic with daily life functions in a dibilitaing way. that is the pont of view i am looking at when a relationship becomes dabilitating when it is no longer healthy and interferes in ones ability to function ie broken unrepairable dead emotionally or physically this is the point and no one has the right to do so to another

safe sane consentual lets examine this a bit especially to those that "dont believe in it"
safe -when no permanant damage occurs to someone mentally or physically
sane- a much harder thing to interpret but generally in my view if you are able to distinguish what will prevent permanant harm and what will not that is sane if you lose sight of that there is a problem
consentual- can i guess that most of U/us at least agree to this? willing participants



Again, it's all subjective. Safe to me isn't safe to you, and vice-versa. Same goes for sane. Even consent can be blurry, as others have pointed out quite well here, and on other threads. You have to let go of the idea that there is a 'right' way to do things, especially where relationships are concerned.



misskittyslave -> RE: discipline or abuse (10/11/2005 6:43:25 AM)

what it boils down to is this...submissives agree to serve and give and trust and obey with expectations that they are not permanantly damaged emotionally or physically. there is a difference between pain and hurt. responsible adults participating in activities that might be risky will take all necessary precations to ensure the well being of all the parties involved. do accidents soemtimes occur ? yes is an accident abuse? no but careless and reckless behavior with little regard for the one on the receiving end of the punishment is Just because he/she submits doesnt mean that they are no longer living beings whose safety should be neglected.

One can not neglect taking and keeping the submissives safety both mentally and physically into mind during "play" One must take careful consideration and steps making sure that they minimize potential risks to the submissive. when we surrender ourselves and place our very lives in the hands of another our well being is now the shared responsability of the person we entrust it to and for them to think otherwise well....in my opinion should feel the business end of the cane

personally those i train come to me and submit to me knowing that there is nothing that i will do to them that i will not have done to myself. that every tool i use on them has been used on me by myself and from my Master. (of course with cbt well...i cannot do that but i have had my equivaent and i communicate wtih the ones i train making sure that they are still within a zone of safety) will they enjoy all of it no way neither do i BUT my "domme priviledges" end where their safety begins. just becasue i might not "feel like stopping" their NEEDS come before my WANTS. it is MY responsability to keep those in my care safe. and if i ever forget that well that should be the day that my traubees tell me to F** off and run away and take back their submission because the day i forget to take care of the property is the day i no longer deserve to have it.

the day a sub reaches out to me emotionally in need and i fail to provide them with the best care i can give is the day i break trust. and how can someone risk their lives with me and the tools i use if they cannot depend on me to take care of them?

i am not a switch i am a slave and i train other slaves/submissives so i have learned both sides of where responsability lies. abuse is abuse neglect is neglect and neither have a place in a healthy relationship bdsm or otherwise. am i perfect ? no does my flog wrap occassionally and do i miss the mark sometimes ? yes but when i do i make sure that the one that is getting it is NOT damaged. that is MY responsability one that i take seriously. perhaps that is why people are willing to allow me to push limits because they know i respect their limits and in my care no harm will befall them



ownedjulia -> RE: discipline or abuse (10/11/2005 12:18:55 PM)

Couldn't agree more kittyslave.

my Master knows how far he can push me and he has pushed me there. he has made me scream in pain and pleasure all in the same evening but then again I've taken the time to get to know him and we have pushed my limits so far out that i'm doing things i never thought i would.

It hasn't been easy, we have had ups and downs, he has made mistakes and so have i. a few times i've been caught by a badly timed thud from a flogger or cane. it happens. thats submission.

All through it he has been there to listen, to nuture and to make sure i am safe.




Phoenixandnika -> RE: discipline or abuse (10/12/2005 9:54:00 AM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave
i STRONGLY disagree with that a dominant has no ethical requirements or pre-requisits. it is most DEFINATELY a dominants responsability to keep their property safe...comfortable is different but SAFE is imperitive let N/none of U/us ever forget that ....


I personally think the only pre-reguisits of a dominate or submissive / slave are those that they take the time to agree upon before they enter into the relationship or scene. One can not make blind assumptions, that in my opinion is neither safe nor sain. I would also argue that simply because my Master has promised to protect me that I as His also have a responsibility to protect myself. After all I am a grown woman. I know my physical and mental limits better than anyone, even my Master.I would also suggest that "safe" is a matter of perception.What one considers safe others may consider dangerous and vice versa.

Nika, Phoenix Gothic Slave



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