Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission (Full Version)

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KindLadyGrey -> Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission (4/7/2008 9:36:21 PM)

As a Dominant, I have this dilemma. I have a great respect for the personal autonomy of others. It is in fact, one of the guiding principles of my life: people have the right to make their own decisions and make their own mistakes. It is not my place to tell another person how to live their life.

Until it is. Because that person wants me to.

So here are my questions for the submissives here, and they are rather nuanced so I hope they make some kind of sense.

Being Dominant in predefined time periods, like a scene or a single date, is no problem. But figuring out how and when it is appropriate to take that to the next level and start taking control of a submissive's daily life is another thing entirely.

The questions:

What is the best way to approach a submissive about this issue? When is a good time? Do you prefer a Dominant to take a lot of control right away or gradually ease her/his way into your life? What's the most politic way to tell a sub to stop pansy-footing around and kneel at your feet already? How do you like a Dominant to communicate that she/he likes you?

The default answer to all of these questions is the old "communication and negotiation" mantra, and while this is certainly true, I find the clinical nature of that lacking in romance, and in practice things like this often happen more organically.

The Lady you have been seeing calls you AT WORK one day and tells you to go to the bathroom and remove your shorts. The man who was not previously your master presses you against the wall at a party and says "You are mine." and you squeak "Yes sir!" The Mistress you've been flirting with for weeks suddenly slaps you across the face and says "Enough of this crap. You're coming home with me."

Or perhaps things happen less dramatically, in a more subtle fashion. He says "pet, don't smoke that cigarette, let's go get some ice cream." She starts buying you nice clothes, but does not explicitly insist that you wear them. He pulls you into his arms for a cuddle in a vanilla setting. She strokes your hair and tells you that she is going to kiss you now.

So, which is your preference? As a sub, how would you prefer these transitions to be made? What expectations do you have of the Dominant? How much of your personal autonomy are you comfortable with being taken from you?



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission (4/7/2008 9:42:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey
What is the best way to approach a submissive about this issue? When is a good time? Do you prefer a Dominant to take a lot of control right away or gradually ease her/his way into your life? What's the most politic way to tell a sub to stop pansy-footing around and kneel at your feet already? How do you like a Dominant to communicate that she/he likes you?

Depends on what we're talking about.  In what you are discussing, taking it beyond the scene and into every day life, I would think a nice discussion over dinner would be a good way to start.  Kinky scenes are great to kick start with all engines revved- real daily life however I find is best taken as it comes.  You can't possibly keep up high speeds all the time, and it's really a journey TOGETHER. 

So, talk, get to know eachother, ask the questions in a happy casual manner.

The default answer to all of these questions is the old "communication and negotiation" mantra, and while this is certainly true, I find the clinical nature of that lacking in romance, and in practice things like this often happen more organically.

quote:

So, which is your preference? As a sub, how would you prefer these transitions to be made? What expectations do you have of the Dominant? How much of your personal autonomy are you comfortable with being taken from you?

Well your examples are all great moments in time- but it's much more how the WHOLE comes together for me.  I don't have authority just because I can call him and tell him to strip for me.  I also have it because I know I could NOT call all day and come home and things would still be taken care of.  I might get all tingly with the sub fuzzies at being ordered to go get something or not do something I normally do, but until we've talked and come to an understanding, we haven't really grown anywhere together.

Yes, it's boring.  But life doesn't go any faster or slower than it goes, and I'm much more a long term slow burn type.



Poetryinpain -> RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission (4/7/2008 9:58:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey
What is the best way to approach a submissive about this issue? When is a good time? I think that when the time is right, if the relationship is right, both parties will know. (Stock sappy answer, but it happens to be what I believe.)

Do you prefer a Dominant to take a lot of control right away or gradually ease her/his way into your life? I would prefer gradual. I would much rather wake up some morning and realize it has happened than to have it announced that 'this is the way it's going to be.'

What's the most politic way to tell a sub to stop pansy-footing around and kneel at your feet already? I'll have to pass on this one as the kneeling at someone's feet is not only physically impossible for me, it's outside of my comfort zone.

How do you like a Dominant to communicate that she/he likes you? If it's a matter of 'liking' as in high school lingo, coming right out and saying so would be good.

The default answer to all of these questions is the old "communication and negotiation" mantra, and while this is certainly true, I find the clinical nature of that lacking in romance, and in practice things like this often happen more organically. That would be my preference - don't force it, let it happen naturally.

Or perhaps things happen less dramatically, in a more subtle fashion. He says "pet, don't smoke that cigarette, let's go get some ice cream." She starts buying you nice clothes, but does not explicitly insist that you wear them. He pulls you into his arms for a cuddle in a vanilla setting. She strokes your hair and tells you that she is going to kiss you now. This scenario is so romantic! [sigh] And yet compellingly dominant. I'd love it. And a Dom just might get more submission out of me this way than by demanding it.

How much of your personal autonomy are you comfortable with being taken from you? I'm pretty fond of my personal autonomy, and each bit will be tough to part with, but with patience and perseverance, a Dom who loves me, and whom I love, may surprise both of us by how much control  he can assume.


pip - my two pfennigs



hisannabelle -> RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission (4/7/2008 10:32:01 PM)

lady grey, i've always enjoyed reading your posts and i never got this impression from you, so i just thought i'd mention that i think you do pretty well presenting yourself as a dominant and maybe you're overthinking your own capabilities to handle the situation. you seem to be very levelheaded in my opinion. :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey

What is the best way to approach a submissive about this issue? When is a good time? Do you prefer a Dominant to take a lot of control right away or gradually ease her/his way into your life? What's the most politic way to tell a sub to stop pansy-footing around and kneel at your feet already? How do you like a Dominant to communicate that she/he likes you?


to be honest, i have to get to know them as a person first. it doesn't necessarily need to happen on equal footing, and my situation is perhaps a little weird because i was friends with both my current and previous dominant long before we were ever together, so i did know them as people first and i knew their personality. for me, submission is an all-or-nothing kind of thing when it comes to a relationship, and to have the "all," they have to at least have a working level of trust to begin with. so while i like them to communicate that they've got a strong personality and that they are definitely willing and able to handle an m/s dynamic, holding off on the face slapping and kneel bitch is probably good at first.

quote:

So, which is your preference? As a sub, how would you prefer these transitions to be made? What expectations do you have of the Dominant? How much of your personal autonomy are you comfortable with being taken from you?


i prefer the second scenario, honestly. i like subtlety and less overt force when i'm first getting to know someone, until i'm comfortable with them choking me or slamming me up against a wall, so quiet dominance in a more subtle context, such as ordering my food for me or expressing wishes about what i wear or something like that is perhaps a good way to slowly get comfortable with handing over (in my case) and taking (in his) the power. i don't have specific expectations, usually, other than that they will be consistent. that's the biggest thing. consistence is what builds trust - nothing more, nothing less. my master has a complete grasp on my personal autonomy because of his consistence as a person, as a friend, as a partner, as a master. in terms of how much i'm willing to fork over, well, once there's a developed level of trust, i'd be unhappy not giving away all of my autonomy. but again, you'd have to be comfortable with taking it as well - and it seems like you might have to do some soul-searching on that yourself.



gypsygrl -> RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission (4/7/2008 10:38:05 PM)

Slow down, you'll get there faster.   

I guess subtlety makes a deeper impression on me and will have less chance of making me turn tail and run.  I'm hyper aware and notice the slightest nuances of things, so everythings already magnified within my perception.  The in your face style is cool for a scene but for everyday life?  Not for me.  It just scares me and I feel like I'm walking on egg shells never knowing whats coming around the corner.  Over a period of months, it makes me a nervous wreck.

Under the right conditions, I'm comfortable ceding huge amounts of personal autonomy so long as as the person on the receiving end respects it for what it is.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission (4/7/2008 10:39:19 PM)

LadyGrey,

The scene is changing clearly, in reading your profile I know 30 and 40 something women who don't seem half as squared away, congratulations.

Okay, that was the nice part.  On some level, who the fuck cares what submissives want?  Seriously, this is about YOU being YOU.  Figure out what YOU want and go hunting for THAT person.  Don't do what your husband did and try and wrap yourself around another. 

Develop your own style and allow that to attract them. 



gypsygrl -> RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission (4/7/2008 10:49:20 PM)

Just because she's asking the question doesn't mean she doesn't have her own way of doing things.  I don't know if she does or not, but if she doesn't, asking such a question seems to be a good way to find her bearings.

Besides, its a good question that s-types should be thinking about.  Or, I should be thinking about as an s-type.  And it was phrased in a very managable way, at least for me.  So, its served some useful purpose.

Gosh.



MissMenagerie -> RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission (4/7/2008 11:10:01 PM)

Obviously, you've been alive and in possesion of a sex drive long enough to know how dating works. You seem quite reasonable and intelligent, so, considering those two things, I'm going to skip what I think of as the 'Dur' advice and get on with some hopefully helpful personal examples.

Conditionals:
"You really like those panties? I'll buy them for you...if you'll wear them on Friday."
"Pet, if you wish to continue enjoying my company, come for a walk with me"
"Of course we could do that, honey...if you're good.



atursvcMaam -> RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission (4/7/2008 11:42:08 PM)

Dear Kind Lady Grey,
        i did not read any of the responses here, so please forgive any redundancy. 
        Half of the answer to this question is, "when You are ready Ma'am."
        The rest of the interplay depends on Your level of comfort with Your own control, and with Your prey's response.
        My first, and actually best remembered intro to being controlled was that after meeting and getting comfortable in a very open area, i was asked to meet Her at Her home at the end of Her day.  i was taken to Her playspace and told to be naked and on my knees or be gone when She returned.  The door was right next to me.
         The time that is most insecure for me is the "getting to know You" part.  if i have been invited to play, i tend to assume that i have passed the scrutiny tests.
         The call at work You mentioned would be very deeply felt as well.
         Control of Diet, Personal habits, and day to day life should fall into the intro area if that is something that You need to have happen to maintain a relationship.  (Say You could never be with a sub who smoked or drank).  To me, that is akin to pointing out the door.  Things that You would like to change, but could tolerate, should be a part of training, reward and punishment. 
            i will honestly tell You that if You are seeking a male sub, subtlety is often lost.   i always blame it on my blood rushing out of my bigger head at the thought, but i am really just not too bright.  i am much more attuned to being hit over the head by a brick or a 2x4.
            i hope that this helps some, and is not too darned simple.



ReynardM -> RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission (4/7/2008 11:54:23 PM)

This is something I've often wondered myself. I have no answers, of course; I have a lot less experience with relationships in general than you seem to have.

I note, though, that you phrase your questions in terms of "submissives", apparently assuming you already know the person you're with is submissive (although given the nature of your questions, I'm not sure you're really assuming that). For me the even more interesting question is how you handle it when you don't know this --- when you're just seeing someone, how do you even begin to draw the whole question of dominance and submission into it? And at what point in the relationship can this reasonably occur?



Araven -> RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission (4/8/2008 1:10:08 AM)

quote:

What is the best way to approach a submissive about this issue? When is a good time? Do you prefer a Dominant to take a lot of control right away or gradually ease her/his way into your life? What's the most politic way to tell a sub to stop pansy-footing around and kneel at your feet already? How do you like a Dominant to communicate that she/he likes you?


The best way to approach the submissive over this issue is whenever there is some good time, where there are little the minimal distractions. I personally like car-rides, because its just two people, together, and they have only one another to talk with. I feel very open and honest in a car, and that is a good time to tell me important issues and things that need to be said.

Im very shy, untrusting, and a bit weary.. so I prefer the gradually easing her way into my life. When the pillars of a relationship are being built, such as love, trust, and communication then I can work on giving myself completely to her.

I think after a certain amount of flirting, toying.. when you know that your buttons are being pushed, its perfectly okay to take charge of the situtation and as you said "tell a sub to stop pansy-footing and kneel".  The best way for me personally, that tells me that I am liked, and loved is directly through both words and actions. It could be the sign-language symbol for love, or a whisper in my ear that she loves me.. Or an action, such as calling or texting me to tell me she is thinking of me, or helping me take care of my pets and animals that I love so much.

quote:

So, which is your preference? As a sub, how would you prefer these transitions to be made? What expectations do you have of the Dominant? How much of your personal autonomy are you comfortable with being taken from you?


My preference for the transition, or at least in my experiance is that there is a certain amount of love, trust, communication that has to exist before it is made. My only real expectations of the Dominant is to always be communicative to me, trust me, and teach me what I need to do to please them. So eventually, it gets to a point where they no longer have to tell me, I just know what to do.

As much as she needs to take from me, thats how much I am comfortable with being taken by her. She knows, and I trust her exactly to take me, lead me, and guide me where I need to be.






rubberpet -> RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission (4/8/2008 3:55:03 AM)

My personal preference is to get to know me as a person and see what makes me tick before going straight into domme-mode.  My submission is not given easily...it is earned.  So learn what triggers my submission.  I'll stand toe-to-toe with anyone and stare anyone down, but there have been only a select few dommes in my lifetime that could make me look away.  Mistress is one of those select few.  If that "intimidation factor" is there, chances are I'll bow down.

Once that is established, then a "show of force" is the way to go with me.  I need to know my domme could literally take me whenever she pleased.  A firm grip around my neck, pulling me to the ground by my collar, or shoving me into a corner and pressing her body against mine are good examples.

For the right domme, there is very little I wouldn't endure or surrender.



DesFIP -> RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission (4/8/2008 4:38:05 AM)

I like it to grow slowly as my history with him grows and as my trust level grows. Having him take the lead in the bedroom is hot, having him take over my finances requires a lot more trust, gaining the right to take a stepfather role even more.



tahlly -> RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission (4/8/2008 4:56:39 AM)


I read this question and had to stop for a minute and think back to when I first met my owner. We did not meet at a party or through a group; he moved into my apt building and I happened to run into him one day. He asked me out to dinner and things just progressed from there.

As I was thinking back, I can say with clarity that he never hesitated in taking ‘charge’ of our relationship. Take the first dinner for example; he chose the time, the restaurant, what we would eat, what we would drink during dinner, where we would go after…all without consulting me. It never crossed my mind to object because I could have cared less about the little things such as that; I was more concentrated on the person than what or how he did things. There was never a question of when he would take control because he always had control. From day one, things were done the way he wished them to be; it has not changed since.



MladyHathor -> RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission (4/8/2008 5:00:00 AM)

IMHO, I believe some of you are missing Her point--(A) I don't think She means the fun part (wear these panties, call Me at 7 and pant--etc etc) and (B)--it cannot be all about Her and none of the submissive---She talked of personal autonomy--the real part of ones life, not the easy to submit elements---but the reality--the checkbook, the bad habits, the work schedule, the way one treats their family----personal autonomy IMHO is not a " Im the Domina and you be damned I will do as I please"---nope doesn't work that way--
 
Its a dance on the saber---some submissives need to feel the trust in a relationship and IMHO it all starts with honest commuication and honest communication is not yeah yeah yeah and then no acquiescence, or the yeah but, yeah but--nope doesn't work that way----One has to start with talk I beleive long before the fun stuff even starts to define just how real the surrender of personal autonomy is and just how far one is willing to go and how far One is willing to extend themselves. Talk is cheap and fantasies are a dime a dozen--but when the rubber meets the road is when the smoke rises.
 
For Me it depends on their state of affairs, if they are in serious debt and the bill collectors live on the door step--chances are really good they wont get to be a sub of Mine let alone Me even take on that kind of responsibility---I will take on someone's accounts that may be having no or mild trouble---
 
I believe the talk has to come in the starter stages after You understand where their life is--then its a " I am going to start here, then I will progress to XX, at any step along the way, you have the right to say, I dont feel good about this, but once I have started the only one who can say, this isnt working is Me.---
 
Don't mistake personal autonomy for the fun things, it may be, but most of the time, its reality and that is a sticky wicket IMHO.



KindLadyGrey -> RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission (4/8/2008 7:51:36 AM)

The replies to this thread have been extremely interesting and made me think, which was the reason I posted it.

I do want to say that I didn't post this because of any crisis of confidence on my part, it's just something that is often on my mind when dealing with the submissives I see and the ones I talk to online.

One of the reasons I asked is because, as a woman, as a switch who has been on the submissive side of the fence, I too tend to lean toward more subtle and slow growth of a D/s relationship. Many of the men I talk to and know, however, seem to prefer a show of force. I'm not talking about those wankers who want to be whipped and peed on immediately and so on; I don't give them the time of day. I've heard things like what rubberpet said, about a little show of intimidation, or the amusing note from atursrvcMaam about how he doesn't really get subtle and needs to be hit with a 2x4. Obviously these things are different for each individual, but I've noticed that they often fall along gender lines. The boys prefer a little more aggression, which is very fun and romantic, but a little more risky in terms of possibly crushing personal autonomy before they are ready.

I asked all of those questions because I wanted to get some personal perspectives from both men and women on exactly that issue. I have no doubt there are plenty of women who also like to be thrown against the wall, and plenty of men who prefer to cuddle and talk about these things. I'm just trying to get a handle on what might be going through the heads of the subs who do end up kneeling at my feet. I've been there once, but that is hardly sufficient data.

So thank you all for sharing your stories and feelings. I hope others will continue to do so, because it helps me, and I hope other Dominants, get a good idea of the range of different feelings about submission in real life, beyond the bedroom and beyond the scene.



rubberpet -> RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission (4/8/2008 10:53:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey

The replies to this thread have been extremely interesting and made me think, which was the reason I posted it.

I do want to say that I didn't post this because of any crisis of confidence on my part, it's just something that is often on my mind when dealing with the submissives I see and the ones I talk to online.

One of the reasons I asked is because, as a woman, as a switch who has been on the submissive side of the fence, I too tend to lean toward more subtle and slow growth of a D/s relationship. Many of the men I talk to and know, however, seem to prefer a show of force. I'm not talking about those wankers who want to be whipped and peed on immediately and so on; I don't give them the time of day. I've heard things like what rubberpet said, about a little show of intimidation, or the amusing note from atursrvcMaam about how he doesn't really get subtle and needs to be hit with a 2x4. Obviously these things are different for each individual, but I've noticed that they often fall along gender lines. The boys prefer a little more aggression, which is very fun and romantic, but a little more risky in terms of possibly crushing personal autonomy before they are ready.

I asked all of those questions because I wanted to get some personal perspectives from both men and women on exactly that issue. I have no doubt there are plenty of women who also like to be thrown against the wall, and plenty of men who prefer to cuddle and talk about these things. I'm just trying to get a handle on what might be going through the heads of the subs who do end up kneeling at my feet. I've been there once, but that is hardly sufficient data.

So thank you all for sharing your stories and feelings. I hope others will continue to do so, because it helps me, and I hope other Dominants, get a good idea of the range of different feelings about submission in real life, beyond the bedroom and beyond the scene.


I'm the type that likes the intimidation, but only after the domme gets to know me.  Mistress has gotten to know me as a person over the eight months on the phone and internet, but even when we finally met face to face, there was no "physical intimidation" from Her.  She was very tender and loving.  That showed me that She loves and cares for me.  Before She could throw me against a wall or shove me around, She had to show me that I was cared for first.  Now I can look like I just stepped out of the octogon after a fight with Quentin "Rampage" Jackson and be happy as hell about it because I know Mistress loves me! [:D]



DesFIP -> RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission (4/8/2008 11:37:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MladyHathor

Its a dance on the saber---some submissives need to feel the trust in a relationship and IMHO it all starts with honest commuication and honest communication is not yeah yeah yeah and then no acquiescence, or the yeah but, yeah but--nope doesn't work that way----One has to start with talk I beleive long before the fun stuff even starts to define just how real the surrender of personal autonomy is and just how far one is willing to go and how far One is willing to extend themselves.


I'm not willing to talk about these kinds of things until the dominant has proved himself competent in those areas and in not abusing my trust. My body will heal a lot faster than it would take me to make back the monies stolen or misused. And my kids would carry the emotional scars for life if he does wrong.

I needed to have a consistent history where he proved everyday that he isn't in this just for himself and the hell with what's good for me, before I was willing to discuss anything deeper.

As you said, talk is cheap. Proof that you will do what's right for me and mine is not. Oh and stepfamilies? On the average it takes seven years to mesh successfully.



Dnomyar -> RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission (4/8/2008 11:50:27 AM)

Mmmmm. Just take my hand and I will take it from there.



Wheldrake -> RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission (4/8/2008 12:01:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey

Many of the men I talk to and know, however, seem to prefer a show of force. I'm not talking about those wankers who want to be whipped and peed on immediately and so on; I don't give them the time of day. I've heard things like what rubberpet said, about a little show of intimidation, or the amusing note from atursrvcMaam about how he doesn't really get subtle and needs to be hit with a 2x4. Obviously these things are different for each individual, but I've noticed that they often fall along gender lines. The boys prefer a little more aggression, which is very fun and romantic, but a little more risky in terms of possibly crushing personal autonomy before they are ready.



As it happens, I and the dominant woman in my life are exactly at the stage you seem to be talking about - she takes control of me when we have the time, energy and privacy, but I'm not her full-time slave and she doesn't set rules for my daily life. I think we both want her control to gradually expand, but she presumably needs to get comfortable with having more authority and responsibility and I definitely need to get comfortable with surrendering my "personal autonomy". It's a scary process, since I need to learn to sit back and trust her not to inadvertantly order me to do something that would damage my career, create difficulties with family or close friends, etc.

In this context, I don't think a "show of force" from her would be especially helpful (however much I might appreciate shows of force behind closed doors, when daily life has been temporarily left behind). And subtle attempts on her part to deepen her control would probably just leave me wondering what exactly was going on. I don't think there's any real substitute for negotiation, or at least discussion, of each step. We've done this before each of my temporary ventures into submission to her, and I don't find it "clinical" at all, or at least not if clinical implies boring. It's actually rather exciting to clearly and calmly talk about the power she'll have over me, the range of things she'll be able to do - and then she can look forward to doing those things, and I can look forward to experiencing them. But of course, that's just us.



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