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RE: Chinese goods no longer cheap? - 4/10/2008 11:56:47 AM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

And in a couple of years the factories will move to poor African countries. This isn't new. After WWII, cheap good were made in Japan, when Japanese wages rose, the factories moved to Taiwan. Then Korea, and now China.  What's the average wage in Botswana or the Sudan? Because when the goods cost too much, it becomes cheaper to build new factories someplace else.


The lynchpin is that those companies always expect access to our markets.



popeye:
They are U.S. companies why wouldn't they expect access to U.S. markets?
thompson





(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Chinese goods no longer cheap? - 4/10/2008 12:00:30 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FlamingRedhead

If I had my way, this country wouldn't import another damn thing from China or any other third world country.  Has anyone else noticed that China is trying to kill us?!?  Lead paint on dishes, lead paint on children's toys, psychedelic drugs in those "dot" things for kids, flip-flops that cause severe skin irritation, and the latest is people dying from contaminated heparin (blood thinning drug).  What idiot decided it would be safe to buy medical supples from overseas?!?  Buy American, they say.  Um....where, exactly, would I find something made in the USA?  Not at Wal-Mart....they stopped selling American made after the ol' man died.  Not clothes....there was only 1 Levi's plant left in the states (due to close) last I heard.  Not cars...they're assembled in Mexico.  My Nissan, by the way, was made in Tennessee.  Everyone wanting cheap junky crap has allowed American jobs go overseas, and American businesses have eagerly polluted other countries and exploited workers with little or no rights.  What will we do now that China wants to be paid for their services?  This country is too dependent on our enemies for my level of comfort.  If there is ever another World War....we'll be as helpless as the Confederacy after cutting off the Mississippi River.


Well said Redhead!
And all to make about 20,000 people in this country even richer than they already are.
They are buying and selling *our* congressmen and senators like chess pieces.
Much is said about the seperation of church and state.
We need a seperation of big business and state.
When presidential candidates raise $100m something's wrong. That's obscene.
We need a law that congressmen, senators and presidential candidates campaigns will be funded by the general fund to the tune of $1m and "give it your best shot."
One of the wealthiest areas of the country is the Virginia suburbs of Washington because; "many Washington lobbyists live there."
Our tax dollars are buying them million dollar homes.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 4/10/2008 12:02:03 PM >

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Chinese goods no longer cheap? - 4/10/2008 1:45:29 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		Just a minor correction, the lobbyists' homes are being bought with corporate dollars, and the corporations themselves make obscene profits on what are effectively unfair and protectionist trade practices put into effect by the government. It all results in no bid contracts for some corporations, and the easy off-shoring of manufacturing and the hiding of assets for others.

It's no accident who is making all of the money. Clearly, it's planned.

The ones not benefiting at all are the general populace. The part we play is as consumers of actual shit.

BTW, Popeye1250 - did you miss the all important Monsanto thread?

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Chinese goods no longer cheap? - 4/10/2008 2:34:32 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Just a minor correction, the lobbyists' homes are being bought with corporate dollars, and the corporations themselves make obscene profits on what are effectively unfair and protectionist trade practices put into effect by the government. It all results in no bid contracts for some corporations, and the easy off-shoring of manufacturing and the hiding of assets for others.

It's no accident who is making all of the money. Clearly, it's planned.

The ones not benefiting at all are the general populace. The part we play is as consumers of actual shit.

BTW, Popeye1250 - did you miss the all important Monsanto thread?

I'm in favor of eliminating the corporation as a legal entity. I've read some compelling arguments.
  Companies which offshore their ops should be required to pay 80% of the prevailing average US wage regardless of jurisdiction. After adjusting for increased shipping costs, import duties should be charged so that there is no advantage whatsoever to offshoring.
  Lobbying by NGOs not representing actual citizens should be either heavily regulated or banned.
  All current anti-union laws need to be repealed.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Chinese goods no longer cheap? - 4/10/2008 2:35:47 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
I blame the CEOs.
They get paid well to"manage"- well werent we suppose to have the saftey toys [Christmas]ever?

to shop elsewhere solves little...the genie is out of the bottle.  all products have lowered quality.



While the Obama's were'nt CEO's they might as well have been. Another company but a huge Wal-Mart supplier.  At least Michelle anyway.  By the way she resigned in June 07 I believe.

WASHINGTON -- Michelle Obama resigned Tuesday from the board of TreeHouse Foods Inc., a Wal-Mart vendor, eight days after husband and White House hopeful Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) said he would not shop at the anti-union store. Obama has been a director of the suburban Westchester food maker since June 27, 2005. Board chairman Sam Reed received a resignation letter from Obama on Tuesday. The company said she quit because of "increased demands" on her time. Obama was re-elected to the board April 19 for a term ending in 2010 -- during a period she was preparing to take on a larger role in the campaign. In a statement issued by the campaign, Obama said, "As my campaign commitments continue to ramp up, it is becoming more difficult for me to provide the type of focus I would like on my professional responsibilities." She said it was in "the best interests of my family and the company" she quit.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/396874,CST-NWS-sweet23.stng

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Chinese goods no longer cheap? - 4/10/2008 2:40:41 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Just a minor correction, the lobbyists' homes are being bought with corporate dollars, and the corporations themselves make obscene profits on what are effectively unfair and protectionist trade practices put into effect by the government. It all results in no bid contracts for some corporations, and the easy off-shoring of manufacturing and the hiding of assets for others.

It's no accident who is making all of the money. Clearly, it's planned.

The ones not benefiting at all are the general populace. The part we play is as consumers of actual shit.

BTW, Popeye1250 - did you miss the all important Monsanto thread?

I'm in favor of eliminating the corporation as a legal entity. I've read some compelling arguments.
Companies which offshore their ops should be required to pay 80% of the prevailing average US wage regardless of jurisdiction. After adjusting for increased shipping costs, import duties should be charged so that there is no advantage whatsoever to offshoring.
Lobbying by NGOs not representing actual citizens should be either heavily regulated or banned.
All current anti-union laws need to be repealed.




how would we end corporations as a legal entity?

i agree with you.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Chinese goods no longer cheap? - 4/10/2008 4:35:00 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Owner59, HippieKinkster:

And where would Clinton be on the this pro-union, anti-Walmart continuum?

Sucking corporate cock, right? Obama may be cleaner, but only possibly because he is a politician barely out of his swaddling clothes (politically speaking).

I say this purely as a progressive reality check. The Dems have a lot to answer for also. I am not predisposed to giving them a free ride and turning the blind eye. If you guys were serious you wouldn't either.

Feet to the fire, gentlemen.


Well,

I saw Hillary compliment Sam Wall and his company years ago.

That`s old news.

She also supports unions and is against anti-union laws and practices.

She`s pretty much down the middle.

The lefties think she`s to far to the right(perhaps you,yes?) and the neo-cons call her and Mr. Obama ,the two most liberal Senators.

Funny how John Kerry was the most liberal Senator,during his run.I guess that metric changes as republican needs change.

But she`s neither,she`s a centerist.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Chinese goods no longer cheap? - 4/10/2008 4:42:19 PM   
lronitulstahp


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quote:

  The European economy is strong, especially Germany's. They don't have a culture of massive consumption of disposible crap. They make quality goods which last. 
  i think many Europeans...(even Germans...living in a country with high taxes, high un-emplyment, and a 80 million people in an area approximately the size of Montana) would disagree with saying they have a "strong" economy.  Better than ours?  Hell yes.  Less consumption and better quality goods?  No doubt.  But they  still look to the US economy, because as you stated we are consumption driven...and we like their well made goods. 

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Chinese goods no longer cheap? - 4/10/2008 4:47:32 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Take away the US and you may be back to pre WWI/WWII days of ethic mistrust and national animosity. Would love to see it happen, not only there but in the middles east. If it did occur in both places the EU would be an Islamic entity within one generation.



Do you really believe all that, or is it something you heard on Rush Limbaugh's radio show?




My thoughts exactly, after all, its not as though Britain and France have a nuclear deterent is it ? 

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Chinese goods no longer cheap? - 4/10/2008 5:24:11 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline 		pahunkboy: "how would we end corporations as a legal entity? " Damn good Q. Haven't given it much thought. Let me mull it over.

inOrlando, unemployment numbers between the US and the EU are calculated differently, I believe. And also, as far as I know, it's the integration into the EU of the newest members which skews the numbers.

Anyway, employment is solid.
"The title of the report - "Staying on Course!" - sets out the agenda going forward. This is because Germany is on the right track: with an upswing for all, with record total employment, and with a balanced budget. The reforms of recent years are now paying off. And in 2008, the German economy will continue to grow: the Federal Government has projected economic growth at a rate of 1.7% for this year. more "
http://www.bmwi.de/English/Navigation/root.html  BALANCED BUDGET

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Chinese goods no longer cheap? - 4/10/2008 5:30:35 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

how would we end corporations as a legal entity?



The idea would be to strip corporations of their status as 'legal persons' - corporations are groups of people who act as if they were a single individual.

In a nutshell, there's a controversy brewing in America today because some corporations are trying to acquire the same rights as human beings - you can imagine with which disastrous consequences.

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Chinese goods no longer cheap? - 4/10/2008 5:35:45 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

I'm in favor of eliminating the corporation as a legal entity. I've read some compelling arguments.
Companies which offshore their ops should be required to pay 80% of the prevailing average US wage regardless of jurisdiction. After adjusting for increased shipping costs, import duties should be charged so that there is no advantage whatsoever to offshoring.
Lobbying by NGOs not representing actual citizens should be either heavily regulated or banned.
All current anti-union laws need to be repealed.


Wow, someone who actually knows what would fix the economy. Why can't someone like you run for president?

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Chinese goods no longer cheap? - 4/10/2008 5:36:25 PM   
lronitulstahp


Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

how would we end corporations as a legal entity?



The idea would be to strip corporations of their status as 'legal persons' - corporations are groups of people who act as if they were a single individual.

In a nutshell, there's a controversy brewing in America today because some corporations are trying to acquire the same rights as human beings - you can imagine with which disastrous consequences.
imagine...you mean we only "imagined" Enron?  i know some pensioners who only wish that had been imaginary lol.  The problem being, when they are making decisons, corporations want to be seen as as a single minded entity. Of course, when it's time to cast blame for wrong doings...they quickly recall individual acts that caused whatever downfall may occur.  People are funny that way....

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Chinese goods no longer cheap? - 4/10/2008 5:42:32 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		There's been nothing but problems since we started all these "free trade" deals.
It's time to get out of them.


_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Chinese goods no longer cheap? - 4/10/2008 7:24:16 PM   
TheHeretic


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Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

And in a couple of years the factories will move to poor African countries. This isn't new. After WWII, cheap good were made in Japan, when Japanese wages rose, the factories moved to Taiwan. Then Korea, and now China.  What's the average wage in Botswana or the Sudan? Because when the goods cost too much, it becomes cheaper to build new factories someplace else.



     If you take the long-term view, it's a good thing.  Along the way, Japan and Korea went from post-war ruin to prosperity.  It isn't a bad system.  Chinese goods are going up in price?  Cool.  Between the price increases and reduced shipping costs, if Mexico can regain some competitiveness, it might ease up the illigal immigration a bit.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 4/10/2008 7:25:40 PM >

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Chinese goods no longer cheap? - 4/10/2008 10:47:34 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
Wow, someone who actually knows what would fix the economy. Why can't someone like you run for president?


Dammit, where's the love? I talk about this shit until I am blue in the face all the time...

-----

I am always mystified how the most basic ideas must be explained and argued over as if they were being spoken aloud as if for the first time. It's tiresome and derails numerous topics.
You can tell from the rhetorical technique and the same tired lines that it's the usual talking points from the corporatist right-wing, for whom corporations are effectively the godhead.
But your dead right, Thompson, the very status of being a corporation is a legal strategy intended to evade responsibility (as in "limited liability for debt").
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1568669

Corporations remain on the hook because there should be benefits and disadvantages to doing business as a corporation. Corporations are not "persons" in the normal sense of the word. I can't just cease to exist without actually dying and leave all my creditors holding the bag through bankruptcy - but corporations basically can. I really wish people would stop confusing corporations with natural born persons as if we all had the same benefits and liabilities - we don't. As a matter of fact, laws were only recently enacted making it a good deal harder for individuals to get the protection of bankruptcy - so everyone that wants to confuse natural with corporate persons can STFU now...
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1198214

Right, because it isn't a benefit to anyone but the snake corporations that want to ignore the underlying social contract for which reason corporations are even allowed to exist and do business as entities with limited liability for debt. The unspoken cost of that benefit is to do business with the local economy by hiring from the local labor pool, paying local taxes, and providing some general benefits to the society from which the corporation arises.
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1565336

-----

So now I get reduced to the status of HippieKinkster's mere running mate?



Anyway, here's an eye-oppening article if there ever was one:

How Corporations Became 'Persons'
The amazing true story of a legal fiction that undermines American democracy.
http://www.uuworld.org/2003/03/feature1a.html

And here is the best film on the subject:

The Corporation (3 hrs.)
Official Site: http://www.thecorporation.com/
Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Corporation
Official Torrent: The Corporation Filmmakers Official Download Edition - DIVX [mininova].torrent
MiniNova Torrent Site: http://www.mininova.org/tor/497967
Google Streaming Video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=192012118972057552

And if you can't do any of that, here's 2:40 minutes of "What Barry Says" encapsulating the most significant damage done by corporations both here and abroad - in this case as the military industrial complex:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmP8Bgof6KE

And KittinSol has the right of it, all you have to do is simply take away, riscind, dissolve the entity's corporate status. Corporations exist entirely at the leave of the government by the legal fiction that creates them: articles of incorporation that are filed with the government. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_of_incorporation

We can squash corporations like bugs if we want to.


< Message edited by SugarMyChurro -- 4/10/2008 10:51:22 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Chinese goods no longer cheap? - 4/11/2008 4:22:46 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

And here is the best film on the subject:

The Corporation (3 hrs.)



An enlightening film - a little 'scholarly' but so informative, it made me make sense of things I had not even imagined. And there's a couple of tidbits in there about Monsanto that made my eyes water. The great thing with this film is that all the people interviewed are corporate experts, topdogs, so to speak.

quote:



We can squash corporations like bugs if we want to.



We want to; the question is, why don't they ?

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Chinese goods no longer cheap? - 4/11/2008 9:14:45 AM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		And there is the disconnect - we are ruled by a de facto plutocracy, or as I call it a "lootocracy." The politicians serve the monied elite and the rest of us can go hang ourselves.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Chinese goods no longer cheap? - 4/11/2008 9:33:32 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Another reason why the US's drive to 'bring democracy to the rest of the world' is a fucking joke.

Another reason why I laugh out loud when I hear capitalists moan about the state of democracy in China: we've reached a warped, perverse situation when old style conservatives start clamouring over the rights of Tibet to be freed from China's rule. Remember when it was a strictly hippyish battle horse ?

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Chinese goods no longer cheap? - 4/11/2008 9:35:50 AM   
Moloch


Posts: 1090
Joined: 6/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

As for becoming islamic, there is around 24 million muslims in a Europe of 540 million and about half of those are indigimous Europeans who have always been muslim since the days of the Ottoman Empire.


I  wouldnt really count Balkans as part of Europe, more like the butthole of Europe.

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Profile   Post #: 60
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