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RE: War Criminals: In Our Names! - 4/11/2008 3:53:44 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Oh, I get it. You're making up both the preliminary conditions ( that they Torturers are successful at amending the constitution ) and my reaction to the hypothetical event.

You can set the hypothetical conditions of the scenario just fine, but you failed miserably in predicting my response.


Sure I did. All I hear daily is about how "they need to do more to protect us" (from one group) and "they can't do that! it's against our constitution!" (from the other group).

The Gov can't win with its people and as a result, we are a target.



Then we should throw out the government.  Of course the logic you present has no following, you see, if this had any bearing in reality, it would be cause and effect that such wide ranging countries as Canada and Poland would fill their morning news with terroristic violence.  No, this is pretty well a problem of imperialistic nations and the colonialisation of countries.  If we weren't out there messing around in other countries internal affairs and dictating policy to them, we wouldn't be on that sort of radar at all.

Ron  

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 4/11/2008 3:55:51 PM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: War Criminals: In Our Names! - 4/11/2008 3:57:07 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		(Ron! Quel plaisir de vous revoir!)

_____________________________



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RE: War Criminals: In Our Names! - 4/11/2008 4:00:02 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Il sait vivre.

But I only hispeak englische as she is goodley spokene.  So I have no knowledge of your whereabouts or underwear, or whatever you said.

Talleyrand

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: War Criminals: In Our Names! - 4/11/2008 7:09:45 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		From this well rounded debate I have gleaned some apparent facts.

1. We are allowed to go anywhere in the world and kill anyone we want.

2. We are allowed to take a people's homeland away and redristribute it as we see fit.

3. We are allowed to destroy the environment anywhere, this includes the deforestation of forests, poisoning the land with radioactivity and basically anything we want. And the poisoning isn't that severe, so that would be an effective excuse, but we don't need one.

4, When we capture someone we, and only we decide if their treatment is just and or humane.

5. Others are are not permitted to do anything against us in any way.

6. Others are not permitted to defend themselves or their homes or families from whatever collateral damage that may occur when we decide who shall run their country.

7. We and we alone define what is right and what is wrong. We also reserve the right to decide differently on the same act perpetrated by anyone other than us.

Now you can go read about the Trading With the Enemy Act all day long, but what you need to see is the revision, I think in 1933, this is where they declared that US citizens are to treated the same. It is a matter of public record, being law.

That means that under US law supposedly they can do the same thing to each or any of us.

That's what it says.

T

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RE: War Criminals: In Our Names! - 4/11/2008 7:13:50 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Well amongst that and signing statements, it is our constitution then.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: War Criminals: In Our Names! - 4/11/2008 7:15:25 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Oh, I get it. You're making up both the preliminary conditions ( that they Torturers are successful at amending the constitution ) and my reaction to the hypothetical event.

You can set the hypothetical conditions of the scenario just fine, but you failed miserably in predicting my response.


Sure I did. All I hear daily is about how "they need to do more to protect us" (from one group) and "they can't do that! it's against our constitution!" (from the other group).

The Gov can't win with its people and as a result, we are a target.



Does a Gov't of Lies, Spies and Torture *deserve* to win ( Whatever the hell *that* term means ) , or does it *deserve* the contempt of the all-mighty?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: War Criminals: In Our Names! - 4/11/2008 7:22:09 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
No, this is pretty well a problem of imperialistic nations and the colonialisation of countries.  If we weren't out there messing around in other countries internal affairs and dictating policy to them, we wouldn't be on that sort of radar at all.

Ron  


*maybe*. But I'd like to challenge the notion that people are afraid.

20% of every demographic is Just-Fucking-Insane, regardless of the chosen demographic. If you say, "Vanilla or Chocolate?" *SOMEONE* will chime in about the anti-strawberry conspiracy.

So, you'll have a minority which are clinically paranoid.

And a lot of pussies who can't -- or worse -- WON'T stand up and 'do whut needs 'doin -- when it needs to be done'.

*I* don't live in fear of Terrorists, for 2 reasons. I accept that the world is a dangerous place... Eaten by a lion on the plains somewhere, carbomb, or heart attack... When it's your time to go -- you're going to go... And I accept my own responsibility for my own security and safety -- I don't *EXPECT* ( like some welfare recipient...) Da Gubmint to "keep me safe".

Every dollar wasted on keeping these lame shits "safe" and "protected" is the ***WORST*** kind of welfare.... Worse than giving it to illegal drug addicts -- Because quite frankly, AMERICA don't need coward genes...

Look what the coward-genes in the Oval Office done wrought.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: War Criminals: In Our Names! - 4/11/2008 7:22:42 PM   
Smith117


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

or does it *deserve* the contempt of the all-mighty?


Well...there went your credibility.

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RE: War Criminals: In Our Names! - 4/11/2008 7:27:16 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		I have no credibility because I acknowledge a higher power than any of us alone?

Moreso, that I believe that a Nation -- through it's actions collectively -- can earn either blessings or damnation?

Let me translate into 'stinky hippie' for you...

Karma, dude. Karma.




< Message edited by farglebargle -- 4/11/2008 7:29:02 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Smith117)
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RE: War Criminals: In Our Names! - 4/11/2008 7:35:08 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I have no credibility because I acknowledge a higher power than any of us alone?

Moreso, that I believe that a Nation -- through it's actions collectively -- can earn either blessings or damnation?

Let me translate into 'stinky hippie' for you...

Karma, dude. Karma.


Oh I'm just remembering another group who likes to invoke 'their' god as a justification for what they do to us.

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RE: War Criminals: In Our Names! - 4/11/2008 7:42:11 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I have no credibility because I acknowledge a higher power than any of us alone?

Moreso, that I believe that a Nation -- through it's actions collectively -- can earn either blessings or damnation?

Let me translate into 'stinky hippie' for you...

Karma, dude. Karma.


Oh I'm just remembering another group who likes to invoke 'their' god as a justification for what they do to us.



The Evangelical Christian Crazies who took over the US Government?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Smith117)
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RE: War Criminals: In Our Names! - 4/11/2008 8:07:40 PM   
Smith117


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

The Evangelical Christian Crazies who took over the US Government?


Actually I was referring to the terrorist, but if you'd like to use your own religion as an example, I don't see any reason why not.

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RE: War Criminals: In Our Names! - 4/11/2008 8:09:29 PM   
Bethnai


Posts: 492
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		  Have you ever seen Fog of War? It is a documentary/interview with Robert McNamara. 

One of his anecdotes is a conversation that he had with General LeMey.  LeMey is bombing wooden Japanese cities, which kill 100,000 in one night. LeMey says to McNamara something like, "If we do not win this war we will be tried as war criminals." McNamara's response was something like, "What does winning change?" 

The only rational for any of this, any justification for covert actions is this:
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.  That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
Hermann Goering

The US has a long history of proxy wars, coups, and collective amnesia. There is no we anything. I do not look at another country and state the mind of the country is locked up in its leadership.  I sure do not want that reciprocated.



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RE: War Criminals: In Our Names! - 4/11/2008 8:09:41 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

I just don't live in fear like that. It's no way to live your life nor is it a sound basis for policy decisions.


I don't live in fear either. You might think it's not a sound basis for policy decisions, but neither is public opinion about something as lame as "water boarding" when the enemy is of the type to post a live decapitation on youtube.

Yes, let's treat them with kid gloves while they snatch up whomever and post youtube videos of their brutal, trial-less executions.




"I don't live in fear"


Oh yes you do.

osama bin-laden made you afraid of your own shadow.

He stole your dignity and pride in being part of America,the world`s beacon of freedom and civility.

He made you as bad as them and just as desperate.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That we let you guys drag us down to their level is beyond me.

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RE: War Criminals: In Our Names! - 4/11/2008 8:15:18 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

"I don't live in fear"


Oh yes you do.

osama bin-laden made you afraid of your own shadow.

He stole your dignity and pride in being part of America,the world`s beacon of freedom and civility.

He made you as bad as them and just as desperate.


How uniformed you are. I've always been a fan of escalating the conflict to finish it. If they want to take it there, we should take it there.

Seems the whole country used to be of that mindset "Hiroshima/Nagisaki" ring a bell? We were hit and hit hard by a country we were not at war with......after a 4-year, bloody battle, we destroyed not one but TWO entire cities. And we won.

I see this conflict as no different. The enemy knows of our methods, or I should say our "lack" of methods and they are not afraid of us. They should be afraid. They should be afraid that we'd nuke their entire region to get them, but they are not. They are not because they know this country no longer has the balls to fight to win. Hell it's been 5 years in iraq and our own people are the loudest voices crying out for us to 'give up.'

This country has no balls anymore.

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: War Criminals: In Our Names! - 4/11/2008 8:18:44 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Fuck it.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 4/11/2008 8:19:23 PM >

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: War Criminals: In Our Names! - 4/11/2008 8:32:59 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bethnai

Have you ever seen Fog of War? It is a documentary/interview with Robert McNamara. 

One of his anecdotes is a conversation that he had with General LeMey.  LeMey is bombing wooden Japanese cities, which kill 100,000 in one night. LeMey says to McNamara something like, "If we do not win this war we will be tried as war criminals." McNamara's response was something like, "What does winning change?" 

The only rational for any of this, any justification for covert actions is this:
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.  That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
Hermann Goering

The US has a long history of proxy wars, coups, and collective amnesia. There is no we anything. I do not look at another country and state the mind of the country is locked up in its leadership.  I sure do not want that reciprocated.





since sol did not point it out it was Gen Curtis LaMay (french extraction) a little short chubby fat prick, but his nephew Mike was tall (really fucking tall and thin)

LOL

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Bethnai)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: War Criminals: In Our Names! - 4/11/2008 8:34:25 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

"I don't live in fear"


Oh yes you do.

osama bin-laden made you afraid of your own shadow.

He stole your dignity and pride in being part of America,the world`s beacon of freedom and civility.

He made you as bad as them and just as desperate.


How uniformed you are. I've always been a fan of escalating the conflict to finish it. If they want to take it there, we should take it there.

Seems the whole country used to be of that mindset "Hiroshima/Nagisaki" ring a bell? We were hit and hit hard by a country we were not at war with......after a 4-year, bloody battle, we destroyed not one but TWO entire cities. And we won.

I see this conflict as no different. The enemy knows of our methods, or I should say our "lack" of methods and they are not afraid of us. They should be afraid. They should be afraid that we'd nuke their entire region to get them, but they are not. They are not because they know this country no longer has the balls to fight to win. Hell it's been 5 years in iraq and our own people are the loudest voices crying out for us to 'give up.'

This country has no balls anymore.



Who exactly is THEY?!?!!!

Abu ghraib prison didn`t have a single fuck`n terrorist in it!

Just a bunch of poor shlubbs who got picked up indiscriminately, by 20 year old GIs.

We know now, that no al-queda existed in Iraq when we invaded.

Just who were these millions of people we were going to save by torturing those Iraqis?

You guys have managed to ruin our good name for decades,not that you care about that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bush and the neo-dickheads haven`t gotten one thing right so far in this war.

You think they know enough, to be allowed to torture?

Did you know that false information attained by torture,was used by Bush to sell the war?

And,just how do you know that the torture victim is telling the truth?

Most people will admit to anything to stop someone from tearing their fingernails off,one at a time.

By the time the hammer smashes one or two fingers to pulp,most will admit to being satan himself.

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RE: War Criminals: In Our Names! - 4/11/2008 8:41:39 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

The Evangelical Christian Crazies who took over the US Government?


Actually I was referring to the terrorist, but if you'd like to use your own religion as an example, I don't see any reason why not.



LOL. That is *so* funny. I'm not a Christian.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 4/11/2008 8:43:39 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: War Criminals: In Our Names! - 4/11/2008 8:46:53 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117


How uniformed you are. I've always been a fan of escalating the conflict to finish it. If they want to take it there, we should take it there.

Seems the whole country used to be of that mindset "Hiroshima/Nagisaki" ring a bell? We were hit and hit hard by a country we were not at war with......after a 4-year, bloody battle, we destroyed not one but TWO entire cities. And we won.

I see this conflict as no different. The enemy knows of our methods, or I should say our "lack" of methods and they are not afraid of us. They should be afraid. They should be afraid that we'd nuke their entire region to get them, but they are not. They are not because they know this country no longer has the balls to fight to win. Hell it's been 5 years in iraq and our own people are the loudest voices crying out for us to 'give up.'

This country has no balls anymore.



GREAT!!!!! I am your fuckin' boy, right here!!!!!

Well, it lacks intelligence otherwise.

You are uninformed, you put 21k troops in Iraq, saying sorry we fucked up your country, straighten it out and use our 21k as advisors.....

put the 140k into Afghanistan and say bring me Osama Bin Lauden by 4 oclock tonight and if you dont I will flatten your fucking country, do a Darth Vader to your ass and put the next guy in charge, and if he dont do it tomorrow by 4pm CST, (US)  I start digging a hole where your country used to be with nuclear bombs and squeezing necks until I get to the fucking guy that brings me him or his body...........

Other than that, you are just out here in the world fucking around and parrotting some bullshit.

Ku,Fu,Chi,Sui,Ka

mushashi and sun tzu, et al.

War is not to fix your worthless goddamn government to my liking unless there is me to stick in there as your government.

War is to get what I want, and what do I want, and what will I die for?

Certainly, nothing in Iraq is of any interest (nor never was to me) at all.

What I want, what I fucking want is to kill known and worldwide recognized terrorists and their familiars.

Men women and children, no matter, the world can make more. World Opinion? Fuck 'em.

But Iraq ain't even close to me getting a nut from.

Ron 



_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 60
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