RE: taking jobs away (Full Version)

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thompsonx -> RE: taking jobs away (4/11/2008 7:20:56 AM)

It is to be expected that there will always be those who like to make false analogies in their knee-jerk response to what they perceive to be against their political agenda.
When the big box store installs a automated check out counter they are not eliminating a checkout person they are elimination a paid checkout person.  They have conned the consumer into working for free.  This is not the same as replacing a ditch digger with a shovel with a ditch digger with a back hoe
thompson



Real_Trouble -> RE: taking jobs away (4/11/2008 10:44:19 AM)

quote:

Tell that to someone who has been laid off and has kids to feed. In some towns, the Wal-mart like stores are the only major employers. You assume that everyone can retrain as new technology becomes available. The IT job market should be a good indication of what happens when suddenly there is need for a specific job and two years later everyone holds an IT certificate and are back to where they were in the beginning- unemployed or in a bad job. There needs to be something in the job market for everyone, no matter how unskilled or inefficient these people are. Besides, would you really like to live in a world where you don't see anyone but mechanical hands? I certainly would not.


How do you know what assumptions I make, exactly?

I presume from the tenor of your comments that you don't know much about my economic views or what I believe to be sound economic systems; I suggest you not make accusations without knowing the entire story.  However, to be totally blunt, I have told precisely that to someone who has been laid off and has had a family.  I am not for disadvantaging the many to advantage the few.  

Specifically regarding IT, what happened is that many people jumped into the industry and got "certificates" without learning meaningful skills, and when there was a contraction, were back on the unemployment line again.  I do not regard this as a bad thing; we need to foster genuine productivity, not "fake" jobs.  This is not to say everyone who lost their job was unskilled, but that we just have a habit of moving from boom to boom and then having contractions in kind when labor floods into various "hot" markets.

We do need better methods of redistributing the gains from creative destruction and free trade.  You cannot have people falling through the cracks unduly.  That doesn't mean, however, we should not allow creative destruction!  This is like arguing that because your car breaks and it's hard to get it fixed sometimes, you shouldn't own a car under any circumstances.  How about we just develop a better system to fix them rather than walking everywhere (even across the country)?

quote:

When the big box store installs a automated check out counter they are not eliminating a checkout person they are elimination a paid checkout person.  They have conned the consumer into working for free.  This is not the same as replacing a ditch digger with a shovel with a ditch digger with a back hoe
thompson


How so?  You have replaced a paid job with an automated tool in both cases.  One just involves many people with shovels no longer being paid (and only paying one backhoe operator), and the other involves many cashiers no longer being paid.

If the consumer is willing to work for free, why should the store not do it?  If you don't like it, don't shop there.  If enough people share that view, they will go back to a cashier, as the lost sales / theft will cost them more than having a cashier.  But if it works out the other way, they will stick with it.

This is competition and innovation at work; it's not perfect, but lots of experimentation with efficiency is good.



KatyLied -> RE: taking jobs away (4/11/2008 10:47:00 AM)

I like the self-service checkout.  It allows to live out my fantasy of once again working in retail and operating a cash register.  Nah, really I hate waiting in lines amd if the self-serve without a line is available I will go there first.



Emperor1956 -> RE: taking jobs away (4/11/2008 10:53:59 AM)

FR:  Did any of you catch the irony that the Luddites (look it up, for God's sake) are venting about the horrors of technology on a forum entirely created by and supported by machine tech?

And its JOHN HENRY.  Sheesh.  If you are going to coopt American cultural icons to serve your purposes, at least get their names right.

E.



kittinSol -> RE: taking jobs away (4/11/2008 10:56:33 AM)

Empy, you are SUCH a SUBversive.



Real_Trouble -> RE: taking jobs away (4/11/2008 10:57:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

FR:  Did any of you catch the irony that the Luddites (look it up, for God's sake) are venting about the horrors of technology on a forum entirely created by and supported by machine tech?

And its JOHN HENRY.  Sheesh.  If you are going to coopt American cultural icons to serve your purposes, at least get their names right.

E.


Quiet you.  We don't need your "facts" around here.

Ahem.  Sadly, this happens so frequently I don't even comment on it anymore.  Though I had a spectacular discussion at one point where someone was complaining about automation killing jobs in the communications industry... using Skype, with myself in London and him in San Francisco.



Emperor1956 -> RE: taking jobs away (4/11/2008 1:29:58 PM)

quote:

kittinSol:  Empy, you are SUCH a SUBversive.


Hmmm...big talk for a supposed submissive who ends every post talking about how she sticks her finger in her switch.  *WINK*

E.



kittinSol -> RE: taking jobs away (4/11/2008 3:23:29 PM)

It says 'on the switch', not 'in the switch', you dirty man.



pagansub77 -> RE: taking jobs away (4/11/2008 3:41:28 PM)

I refuse to use the self checkout. I can barely get the checker to bag my groceries, why should I scan the items for them as well? I'm already paying enough for food and other items, why should I provide free labor? Being a smoker, I usually have to go through the tobacco lane anyway.

ps77



GreedyTop -> RE: taking jobs away (4/11/2008 4:29:08 PM)

I like the self serve lanes (when they work)..in the manned lanes, invariably I get stuck behind the person who has a full cart, and has forgotten their checkbook/creditcard/cash.... *sigh*



subfever -> RE: taking jobs away (4/11/2008 4:52:10 PM)

I see nothing wrong with machines and new technology. After all, I doubt many of us would want to bang two rocks together to start fires.

And probably like most of you, I prefer to speak over the phone with a human being, instead of an electronic menu, or a person from India who I can barely understand.

Thanks to the PTB, we now live in a global economy. Capital will continue to seek less costly labor wherever and whenever they can get away with it, or eliminate labor entirely if at all possible.

Don't like it? Well, what can you really do as a consumer, other than:

Don't eat there, don't shop there, don't buy their products, and don't own their stocks! And if you do own their stocks... sell them.

The bar is being lowered here in the US, while being raised in other parts of the world. If it is indeed true as I truly believe it is, the PTB wants a one world government and a one world currency, so that they can control all of the people and the world's natural resources.

So over time, things will only get worse for the majority of US citizens, as most of the world has a lot of catching up to do. After all, new economies must be built up elsewhere.

Remember, the world's biggest resource is its people.

People = labor

Labor = taxes

Billions of people out of the labor pool, or just living hand-to-mouth, are useless to the PTB.

Of course, the PTB needs to inch along slowly. If they move their agendas along too quickly, the peasants might revolt. Think of the Boiled Frog theory. 



Sanity -> RE: taking jobs away (4/11/2008 5:39:28 PM)

One benefit, they are able charge lower prices if you scan your own goods.



kittinSol -> RE: taking jobs away (4/11/2008 5:40:05 PM)

Oh yeah?



SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: taking jobs away (4/11/2008 5:43:26 PM)

The IBM poster involving JCB's spoons and shovels; that’s my argument I can't be bothered to write it all out but it's what I believe.



farglebargle -> RE: taking jobs away (4/11/2008 5:51:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

One benefit, they are able charge lower prices if you scan your own goods.


More like "They don't hear the same level of customer complaints as when the LIMITED checkouts cause long lines when there's the option to checkout-yourself." and they STILL don't have to pay a living wage.




DesFIP -> RE: taking jobs away (4/11/2008 8:05:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
where are the folks to clean up behind the horses


Most preteen girls are thrilled to do this, unfortunately you can't hire them to do so. You just trade them riding lessons.

And for those who have their own horses, that's what parents are for.



heartcream -> RE: taking jobs away (4/11/2008 8:06:52 PM)

I have been a waitron for what feels like forever. [sm=coffee.gif] The idea of a machine doing it is a pretty cool idea. I usually serve around 30 tables a night. It can be rough when it seems each table is requesting yet something else [sm=chug.gif][sm=givemebeer.gif] as I waft by trying to get things done in a timely[sm=juggle.gif] and non-rude way. I wonder what it might be like to speak my mind rather than giving psychic blow-jobs to folks who behave unreasonably and unpleasant. [sm=bowdown.gif][sm=marionette.gif]

At times the folks that test my nerves the most, the ones that can be the most high maintenance and demanding[sm=runaway.gif][sm=poke.gif] are often also the [sm=2cents.gif] worst tippers. I try not to [sm=rolleyes.gif] be rude although at times I feel I would love to be.[sm=tantrum.gif]

When folks are nice, warm and generous [sm=oddballs.gif] it is fun and not so bad at all. Then it comes easily, feels natural, and is a real pleasure even. I do aspire to be genuine, pleasing, organized, and accommodating all night long.

Waitressing pretty much is freakin hard work. I usually run for at least 5 hours straight with barely enough time to get a sip of juice. [sm=hyper.gif] It is hard work. [sm=tired.gif] My body hurts if I think of all the double shifts I have done in my past. I would love to see a machine do it, ha ha.[sm=coffee.gif]




NeedToUseYou -> RE: taking jobs away (4/11/2008 9:28:42 PM)

oh you guys think automated check-outs are bad, LOL. That is the first one percent. You should watch a documentary on automated warehouses, and then just think about it for a bit. Hrmmmm, a store is merely an inefficient warehouse, that requires payment for varied single items.

Now, merge an automated warehouse custom designed to serve one instead of a pallet, with the automated checkout. Mostly likely the system will be a store, that has a single display item for each item available for purchase, you swipe your card next to the item you just selected walk off, while the robotic automated warehouse builds your cart. Once you are done walking around, you'll go to the front of the store, swipe your card, and it'll shit your cart out for you charging your credit card, and sending you on your merry way.

It is possible to build a store that only has a few technicians, a handful of security people(this is even temporary problem with rfid), and maybe a couple dock workers, of course you keep a couple friendly people to show you to the displays, accept returns, that's about it.

Anyway, I been thinking about that since around 2000, and step one is near completion, automated checkouts, rfid is being integrated. It's just a matter of time before Wal-Mart opens a test facility.



Leatherist -> RE: taking jobs away (4/11/2008 9:53:19 PM)

I work in a store that does customer service. Our staff is not huge-and we stock and clean at the same time that we do this. But we are hired on our product knowledge and desire to make the customer's experience with us a pleasant and productive one..We get them what they want, at the best price, and we get them out the door to get thier projects done. They love us.

And you know what? It gives us a competitve edge over those self serve big box stores. And it's the exact model I intend to run my own business on.



Sanity -> RE: taking jobs away (4/11/2008 10:26:26 PM)

We're getting to the point that you just think it and its delivered to your doorstep. There are more machines performing different steps along the way every day.

Okay by me.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

oh you guys think automated check-outs are bad, LOL. That is the first one percent. You should watch a documentary on automated warehouses, and then just think about it for a bit. Hrmmmm, a store is merely an inefficient warehouse, that requires payment for varied single items.

Now, merge an automated warehouse custom designed to serve one instead of a pallet, with the automated checkout. Mostly likely the system will be a store, that has a single display item for each item available for purchase, you swipe your card next to the item you just selected walk off, while the robotic automated warehouse builds your cart. Once you are done walking around, you'll go to the front of the store, swipe your card, and it'll shit your cart out for you charging your credit card, and sending you on your merry way.

It is possible to build a store that only has a few technicians, a handful of security people(this is even temporary problem with rfid), and maybe a couple dock workers, of course you keep a couple friendly people to show you to the displays, accept returns, that's about it.

Anyway, I been thinking about that since around 2000, and step one is near completion, automated checkouts, rfid is being integrated. It's just a matter of time before Wal-Mart opens a test facility.




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