Feminism and Submission (Full Version)

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Monkeyontuesday -> Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 12:38:04 AM)

Hey, y'all!
So, this is something specifically I was looking to learn about through this site...

I am a very driven, dominant individual in day-to-day life... But when it comes to the sexcapades, I like being held down/ spanked/ what have you. Very unbecoming acts to a feminist ;-)

I like the idea of a Dom; I do. I like the idea that I could belong to someone and we would have this extra-special bond that not everyone has (now, look at me going all mushy... lol). But I don't know that I would have the confidence to give myself over to that person. I tend to give over to and trust too easily people whom I shouldn't, and be wary of those whom are actual sane, upstanding people. This is prolly a personal problem, LOL.

Anyway! What are your thoughts on reconciling feminism with submission, be it total or just in the bedroom?



Stephann -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 12:54:47 AM)

This is a pretty common question/topic.

What part of having your desires and fantasies fulfilled in the manner you desire isn't feminist in nature?  You're a woman, and entitled to enjoy your body, heart, mind, and soul in any way you choose to.  Feminism in the most important sense, means you have the opportunity to live as you wish, and enjoy your life in the manner you see fit; not some militant lesbian who hates her father, nor some misogynistic dickwad with little man syndrome.

There's honestly nothing to reconcile; so long as you support a woman's right to choose to be however submissive, dominant, vanilla, or kinky as she wishes, you're well within the broad scope of 'feminist.'

Stephan



Monkeyontuesday -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 1:04:31 AM)

LOL. Are you cyber-stalking me?! I thought you were asleep?? <333 to you and your subbie!!!



Stephann -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 1:07:02 AM)

Yeah, yeah, I keep telling myself I'll go to sleep (blinking all sleepy like.) 

Jack's Raging Insomnia



Monkeyontuesday -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 1:12:32 AM)

And anyway, we've already spoken a bit about this, but my problem lies in the fact that I have been raised that no one is gonna take care of me and I have to be able to stand on my own two feet and be the source of strength if you know what hits the fan.

I understand all of this is possible in a D/s relationship, but I suppose it is the dynamic that is still throwing me. I am expected to do certain tasks by a specific time. Sometimes I enjoy it, and sometimes it annoys me. Maybe I'm still a teenager rebelling against authority? LOLZ. Not really.. The bruises on my ass really hurt that time...



Stephann -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 1:38:58 AM)

For what it's worth, a submissive who can't stand on her own two feet when shit hits the fan, probably isn't going to be particularly useful to a dominant.  We need strong, stable partners just like you do [;)]

What's difficult, me thinks, is the lessons in humility that often need to be learned early on in a D/s relationship on both sides of the whip.

Stephan



Monkeyontuesday -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 1:40:16 AM)

Any thoughts as to why sometimes I feel quite zealous in performing actions that were asked of me, and then other times not going through with them at all? No merely for punishment, although that HAS been a culprit in the past... lol.



Stephann -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 1:42:46 AM)

You're human?

I love working as a computer tech.  Yet part of that job has meant, occasionally, throwing out the garbage in my office.  It's a crappy part of a great job.  You don't always feel excited to engage in every part of the relationship; yet ultimately, it's not about loving every element, but rather feeling content with the work you've done at the end of the day.

Stephan    



Bethnai -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 1:48:28 AM)

I am a feminist, and I have 2 takes on this. The first is I am a woman, not a man. Apples and oranges. If I compare myself, physically to a male and by their standards then I will fail.  If I say to you, what have we done successfully between the standards that you and I have set, then we are playing on a level field. The question is what are our standards? Our we grading ourselves by our own merits, or merely the drama as "failed men"?

If that fails...................you can be a Dom, but you ain't my Dom.


Edited for grammer.



littlebitxxx -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 3:46:48 AM)

I think I understand you well, monkey.  Struggling through my own definition of submission and the question "To be or not to be".  There are a lot of days that I feel all subby and mushy and loving and caring and serving and and and.  Then there are those days that I say, "Ok, it's upside down day.  It's now my turn to be Dom for awhile, see how you like it."  I don't want the constancy of giving and giving up, so I've kinda stayed on the outside of the collar for now.  I think it's normal for every woman, sub or not, to have the "me" days where you don't want to think of anyone else for awhile.  For me, it started soon after marriage and children came along.  I'm done with the husband and kids now, I don't want another one of that ilk.  I don't see it so much as feminism, as just knowing what I want or don't want.



colouredin -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 3:46:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeyontuesday
Anyway! What are your thoughts on reconciling feminism with submission, be it total or just in the bedroom?


Submission has nothing to do with femininsm, submission is based in consent its a generally selfish thing and you choose it, you can be a male/female/tg/tv sub femisinsm is based on the fact that all people should equal rights and freedom of choice no matter what bits they were born with. If a woman CHOOSES to be a housewife then good for them, if they CHOOSE submission more power but no-one should be forced into that role. Unfortunatly we often see the extreme, that to be an enlightened woman we have to decide to work on a career and not have kids and all that which is bollocks, everyone should be able to decide for themselves. Thats how i reconcile it.



Monkeyontuesday -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 3:50:42 AM)

quote:

If a woman CHOOSES to be a housewife then good for them, if they CHOOSE submission more power but no-one should be forced into that role. Unfortunatly we often see the extreme, that to be an enlightened woman we have to decide to work on a career and not have kids and all that which is bollocks, everyone should be able to decide for themselves. Thats how i reconcile it.



I COMPLETELY agree! Very well said. :-D



MasterFireMaam -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 4:16:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeyontuesday
Very unbecoming acts to a feminist


My opinion? This is a lie you've been taught to believe.

Master Fire



RCdc -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 4:38:34 AM)

Feminism and submission do not work well together.  But then neither does the male extreme either.  Both contain so many lies and mis-information that would pretty much make BDSM a rocky foundation.  Feminism is just another label to try and promote something that doesn't have to be promoted and seperate people who have no desire to be seperated.
I believe in the strength and power which everyone has within them, whatever sex or orientation they are.
 
the.dark.



DesFIP -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 4:54:09 AM)

Feminism is about choice. About having the choice to become a doctor, not just a nurse; to become a CEO not just a secretary. This isn't something I have to do, it is something I choose to do. If I don't get his tea in the morning I don't worry about being punched in the face the way a woman in other societies might worry. I choose to do this.



RCdc -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 5:03:57 AM)

Well, I am going to be pedantic and say that Feminism isn't about choice.  It is about equality regardless of gender - that's the offical definition anyway.  However it fucks up when it comes to equality because no one can be completely equal when it comes to life, the universe and everything.  Birth is a classic example - as is physical strength - let alone the millions of artistic talents out there.
 
Feminism sucks.
 
the.dark.



colouredin -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 5:07:33 AM)

LOL Personally im not a femanist but for me submission has nothing to do with gender, or any other factor like that, age/race/class etc etc its about who you are and what you want. I took her to be talking like I did when I was first finding my way, am i just fitting a stereotype, and the way that I got over it was the fact that im special lol by which i mean that i dont think all women are submissive i think that some people are and though we dont choose how we are wired its not that everyone is wired the same, we can choose who we submit to and it isnt a forced thing. 



RCdc -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 5:19:48 AM)

Hey colouredinone - I have had a bad lot with feminists - who knew?[;)]
It's the whole claim about women being given the choice - and then trying to take my choice away or belittle it by saying I am not supporting women if I chose my choice.
 
I love cooking, ironing and cleaning and being there at the end of a hard day for my man.  I want to pop sprogs and raise them - not hand them over to other people so I can go work and lose out on the fun of their growth.  I am fortunate I have been financially secure enough to do that and to be looked down one because I love being a housewife by feminists who believe I would be better, more powerful and stronger if my choice was wider sucks and is complete bullshit.
 
Feminism is about equality - not choice. And I see choice stripped from people in the name of feminism or religion and even politics all the time.  I am completely a humanist - which looks at a person as an individual - not a sex - regardless of external factors.
 
I got where I am today without the need to be a feminist and relying on someone elses doctrines and using some label or pillar as a crutch.  And where I am today .fuckingrocks.
 
the.dark.



kittinSol -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 5:27:39 AM)

I'm a feminist, and I'm submissively bent. For a while I had a slight feeling of unease about these seemingly contradictory facts. What was wrong with me? How could my emotions, leanings and desires go so much against my convictions, ideas and intellect?

I was perfectly able to rationalise and tell myself that my personality quirks had nothing to do with my rights to fulfil my aspirations as a person or to be treated with the same amount of respect men would expect.

It took me a couple of years to muse over these questions only to eventually realise that my problem with reconciling these two very different sides of myself stemmed from guilt. Guilt at knowing that whilst feminism had been a battle horse for my mother and her generation, I had it relatively easy in comparison to them. I felt guilt because personal submission within the context of my relationships felt like a kind of betrayal to a cause I deeply believe in.

When I accepted that my personal convinctions and my desires weren't contradictory, but two sides of the same coin, my feelings of guilt dropped me.

For centuries some men in high positions of power have enjoyed being treated like the lapdogs of strong-willed Mistresses (especially in England ;-p), and I doubt they have any trouble with it. I think the question arises for women because our rights as full-citizens of this society are relatively new, and not completely won over yet, and because 'female values' are still considered to be second to men's. We feel we owe feminism one, in a way. And we do! But our sexuality are our own, and that is where feminism went a little overboard, because it's necessary for a societal revolution to go too far in order for a balance to be established.

The question of feminism and submission is a perfectly valid one, but not one that is at all unsolvable, as long as we realise that there are only individual solutions to this 'problem' - which isn't really a problem at all.



colouredin -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 5:27:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
It's the whole claim about women being given the choice - and then trying to take my choice away or belittle it by saying I am not supporting women if I chose my choice.



and this is where I have the biggest issue with any fundementalist group, they dont want equality they want everyone to be the same way, I agree that women should be able to get high powered jobs, be paid the same and all that jazz I think that should be an OPTION I dont think that it is 'against the sisterhood' to not want to take up that option.

It reminds me of a post recently which talked about trivial female persuits and someone said its proof that women are unequal because women still look after kids, as if suddenly thats a bad thing as though to want that is undoing the hard work of everyone, people like that arent talking about equality at all they are talking about wanting people to want what they want. Its not all feminists but it is some and its pathetic.

And good for you hun [:D]  I think that for many its hard to get to that level of acceptance as I said I felt the same as the OP however long ago it was. Self accaptance and finding what makes you happy is hard especially when so many differant groups want to tell you what should make you happy, I am glad that you are there [:D] *hugs the.darkness*



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