When I was abusive I was blind to it

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SimplyMichael -> When I was abusive I was blind to it (4/15/2008 6:24:17 PM)
Many of us tend to be highly dismissive of new relationship that have major problems, often quickly saying "get out now". I tend to agree with that line of reasoning. However, I find I often disagree when it is a longer term relationship with real connection and chemistry where one of the partners has issues. To me, as someone who has more options than many as to partners, finding someone you have real chemistry with and who you connect with on a core level is rare and should not be tossed aside lightly. That is NOT the same as saying "cling no matter what" or "put up with anything" but instead simply an acknowledgement of its value. Man, I can't seem to write the short sharp stuff I used to. Anyway, long way around to saying it isn't easy if you are the one with issues to see them. Think about how many friends you know you warned were driving off cliffs but they couldn't see it? Being abusive or even mildly dysfunction is like that, and if your partner is dysfunctional, likely that you have some co-dependence on that dysfunction. You of course can't see it and might not even have it but if you can't see it, how do you know? I don't know but I have a cool analogy. Dysfunction is like one of those magic images you stare at and can't see anything until suddenly, BOOM a 3d image leaps out at you. It wasn't there a minute ago and then WHAM you see it in depth. Personal issues are exactly like that. I used to think I was amazing at making my women secure but in fact tore them down. I terrified them, intimidated them, and browbeat them. They yelled back and so I couldn't see it. Then I met my previous partner and and she didn't yell and she didn't lash out. Suddenly I could see myself as this raging monster in glorious 3D. I had been blind to it before. You can't count on people changing but they DO change, they have to WANT to change, not talk about changing, they have to actively work at changing, but it CAN be done. So, just because you think you aren't fucked up, don't be so sure...

Leatherist -> RE: When I was abusive I was blind to it (4/15/2008 6:27:53 PM)
Been there, done that. Which is why I had fucked-up partners. Birds of a feather. I try to do better now.

domiguy -> RE: When I was abusive I was blind to it (4/15/2008 6:30:34 PM)
Nice post...We all is a tad bit dysfunny out here. But the question really is how much attachment could I develop with someone who is truly fucked up? I'm thinking I could dig the physical but it is obviously the mental part of the relationship that would be lacking. Put the shoe on the other foot...I can be a tad bit callous and selfish at times. If this was all that I brought to the table I wonder why anyone would want to stick around. So it would have to be one of those traits that would be undesirable but not a total deal breaker....Perhaps her snatch is a tad bit loose? Or maybe Domiguy is only a dick 10% of the time which some might find to be bearable....Poor things.

Leatherist -> RE: When I was abusive I was blind to it (4/15/2008 6:33:30 PM)
Evil tends to attract an enablement. Yin and yang-fucker and fucked up. Takes two to tango.

DesFIP -> RE: When I was abusive I was blind to it (4/15/2008 6:35:27 PM)
Which is why I wouldn't talk to anyone with anger issues. Or any issue that they made excuses about dealing with. I had a bad root canal a couple of years ago. If I ever (God forbid) need another one, I'll get it. But I guarantee you it will be by a better endodontist. I'm not swearing off dental work for the rest of my life because of this incompetent. But if it had been my fault, if I had been given antibiotics and had gone noncompliant, or didn't rinse my mouth several times daily with salt water or whatever, I would have owned my responsibility. I own my issues and when I don't like them I get good quality help. Just as I don't fill my own cavities, I'm not my own therapist.

Kalista07 -> RE: When I was abusive I was blind to it (4/15/2008 6:54:41 PM)
Michael, Thanks for the post, i loved it!! i do wonder though, do You think part of it depends on their level of dysfunction? i guess what i'm thinking is recently i posted about some issues that have been going on in my relationship. i got plenty from the "leave his ass" crowd, and i felt pretty sad about that. Because reality is while i can recognize he's fucked up i know i'm beyond wacked.... The other thing is, for me personally, except for these two areas i think our relationship is near perfect. When he hurts my feelings i tell Him; when i'm hurting, lonely, scared, etc. i tell Him; when i'm feeling ugly hideous looking and repulsive i tell Him; when i don't think i have what it takes to be in a relationship i tell Him. And do You know what? Not once has He ever thrown one piece of anything i've ever shared with Him in my face......Not once has He ever belittled me, manipulated me, lied to me, cheated on me, threatened me, abused me, etc. etc. etc. In fact i feel like i am such a better person for having Him in my life. i have a point here........ {thinking...........thinking..........oh yeah!!} Sometimes, i think that part of my awareness of his dysfunction is inversely proportionate to the reality that i'm constantly scanning myself to see how fucked in the head i am. i have no idea if this makes any sense or not. Sorry, Kali

Leatherist -> RE: When I was abusive I was blind to it (4/15/2008 6:58:05 PM)
Seeing dysfunction and admitting it is the first step towards modifying it. It's when you spend your time rationalizing it, that it's fucked up.

KnightofMists -> RE: When I was abusive I was blind to it (4/15/2008 7:38:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael I don't know but I have a cool analogy. Dysfunction is like one of those magic images you stare at and can't see anything until suddenly, BOOM a 3d image leaps out at you. It wasn't there a minute ago and then WHAM you see it in depth. Personal issues are exactly like that. Yup.... Realization of one's own truth can come out like that. Problem is... just because we see that truth.. finally.... we can become stuck in it as well. We might have desires to change... but changing is not so easy. Sometimes it feels like one is a in a whirlpool.. going around and around... the hard you try to swim out... the more you seem to be sucked right in. We can struggle finding the way out of the years of habits and dysfunction... even thou we see it, admit it... we still seem to stay in that destructive cycle. There is no magic wand in these situations... just alot of hard work. slowly we swim with the whirlpool but only slight trying to veer way from the abyss. Sometimes we swim alot of miles just to move 10 feet away from the abyss that the whirlpool was taking us to. There is an interesting and positive thing about all that swimming as we work ourselves out from the abyss... we become stronger. Initially, as we struggle and fight... we can often feel the weakness. We might even slip back alittle from time to time. But, as one focuses, never gives up and as we start to make more distance between us and the abyss... it's hold on us is not so strong. The whirlpool is at it's strongest when we are near the edge of that abyss.... but as we pull away... it will start to lose it's grip on us. When we finally get out away from that whirlpool... we begin to realize just how strong we are. Swimming on that calm lake of life seem so much easier that what we remember... maybe because we spent must of our life navigating whirlpools. It's an odd benefit of coming out of one of life's whirlpools.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: When I was abusive I was blind to it (4/15/2008 8:04:48 PM)
This is part of why I take such a hard line when it comes to abusive or unacceptable behaviors- no second chances, no apologies, it's done. My sense of security is not worth your POSSIBLE crisis of conscience.

themischievous1 -> RE: When I was abusive I was blind to it (4/15/2008 8:50:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael So, just because you think you aren't fucked up, don't be so sure... Exactly. Most abusive people don't want to face that they are abusive. Most will rationalize or live in a state of denial about it. What's even more tough is that the road to recovery is a lifetime trudge. I'm of the belief that being abusive is akin to addiction/compulsions. Just as an alcoholic must continue to go to AA meetings for the rest of his/her life in order to stay "sober," so must an abusive personality stay on guard and consistently monitor him/herself for the rest of their lives. Actually a 12 step approach can work wonders for the abusive personality and I believe in it completely. It's all about getting absolutely honest with one's self and dealing with the hard truths. Some anger management groups are truly helpful in this regard and one can continue to return to them indefinitely as needed. I have to commend those who have the strength of character that it takes to get honest and confront their abusive nature head on. It's a gutsy move, and rare to stumble across one who is capable of what it takes to do so.

MadRabbit -> RE: When I was abusive I was blind to it (4/15/2008 8:50:35 PM)
It's a very powerful post, Michael and I respect your honesty. I can relate, but not in the same way. When I was a teenager and in the beginnings of my career as a chef, I worked in an enviroment that bred, embraced, and supported drug and alchocol abuse and I was no exception to the rule. When I wasn't cooking, I was "partying". I could barely function in the world. I couldn't balance my bank account. I slept all day, worked all night, and partied until the morning. It was a waste of years of my time. I didn't grow as an individual, didn't learn any new skills, and didn't advance my life in anyway. I was in a stalwart stupor. I didn't listen to anyone. I didn't care. I knew everything. I was too hard headed and stubborn and blinded by my own small ego. I made the same mistakes over and over again. Finnally, 3 years ago, I had my appifiny. My moment of clarity where I saw the light. I had driven myself to the brink of rock bottom and it was enough to trigger a true change and not a half ass attempt like in the past. In that moment, I saw myself for what I really was and I hated it. I became self aware. I became obsessed with self improvement. I dealt with and faced the issues that were driving my destructive behavior. I buried myself into my work to climb my way out of the financial mess I had made. I began to pick up books again and began to read again, a pasttime that had long been forgotten about. I began to learn from all my mistakes. 3 years later, I have a functioning, normal life. I have a herb garden that never gets neglected. I have my finances in order. I have a cat that is quite happy. I've been in a long distance relationship for nearly a year now with a girl who thinks the world of me and I've never once done anything to make her feel less about herself. I'm more confident, organized, and most important of all, successful. I've recently started my own business and its getting off the ground without a hitch. I'm happy [:D] Most importantly though, I am self aware and I know me in all my flawed glory. I refuse to be blind again and refuse to hurt anyone because of my own faults. Sure, I'm still growing up and I make mistakes and I don't always deal with things in the right way (In some cases, the very WRONG way). But the difference is that I learn from those mistakes and grow now as opposed to the past where I ignored the mistakes and didn't listen to anyone (especially myself). I even know enough about me to know when to not beleive people and to know when they are wrong about me, because they have never met me, never witnessed my behaviors, and don't know me like I know me. Thanks for sharing [:D]

cloudboy -> RE: When I was abusive I was blind to it (4/15/2008 9:08:10 PM)
Seems to me you are trying to describe "the blind spots" a person has, and I agree that blind spots go hand-in-hand with character faults and dysfunctions.

chamberqueen -> RE: When I was abusive I was blind to it (4/15/2008 10:53:14 PM)
OP, that took a lot of courage to admit. Having come out of two abusive marriages, I know that the abuse doesn't start on day one (when you have the chance to easily run the other direction) but tends to build up over time. The subordinate one becomes used to it. A submissive may not always know the difference between true Mastery and someone who is simply dominating them - the Master may also not know. He may think that everything that He is doing is acceptable, and the sub may not give much feedback to show Him differently. Or, as in your case, by shouting at you it no doubt looked like they were just being bratty or acting out. In my relationship I cried one day. That was my Master's wake up call. I asked Him if He could possibly like me at all after what He had just said to me. He held me on his lap and let me cry on His shoulder, and we talked it over. He hadn't realized that certain words, mixed with a certain tone of voice, would affect me - that I had become emotionally involved. I explained that if my emotions were not involved that I could never trust. Since then things have been wonderful. He remembers that my feelings can be hurt, that as much as I enjoy doing things for Him that I need to not just BE, but FEEL, appreciated in return or else the relationship just doesn't work for me. Cheers to all the Dom/mes who take their wake up calls! Bravo.

littlebitxxx -> RE: When I was abusive I was blind to it (4/15/2008 11:18:11 PM)
I understand what you're saying Michael, and thank you for posting. I call it "choosing my battles". There are some worth fighting and some worth just walking away from, then there are those worth fighting for. And it doesn't even have to be overt abuse, intimidation or aggression. Sometimes the little innocuous sneakers like ADHD, passive-aggressive, or emotional immaturity can cause the manipulations seen in dysfunctional relationships. And most don't even call them dysfunctional....just a little off. So the partner with the issue isn't aware of it or even denies it if it's pointed out. The manipulation can be bad enough, but the denial and resultant aggression from the feeling of being blamed can be brutal for the partner who is trying to keep it all together. Sometimes there is a feeling of the whole thing not being worth the effort. That's when the extra effort needs to be put forth. If it's worth having, it's worth the work.

MasterFireMaam -> RE: When I was abusive I was blind to it (4/16/2008 12:27:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Man, I can't seem to write the short sharp stuff I used to. It's very often true that, in relationships, like attracts like. We enable each other, for good or ill. Master Fire - shortener of paragraphs chuckle

ownedgirlie -> RE: When I was abusive I was blind to it (4/16/2008 12:38:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross My sense of security is not worth your POSSIBLE crisis of conscience. Oh I like that. And how many times have we seen people taut about how much they've changed, only to continue abusive and cowardice behavior behind closed doors?

MaamJay -> RE: When I was abusive I was blind to it (4/16/2008 12:56:52 AM)
Brave and excellent post Michael ... I reckon, to use Knight's lovely analogy, You have become a champion swimmer over the past year or so! You are leaving whirlpools gasping in Your wake as You swim on to a whole new level of self-awareness and growth. It's inspiring to Me to see how much You have succeeded in changing ... and yes, someone has to want it but they also have to put in the hard yards to actually DO it. Bravo! My take on it is that none of us are perfect, every human has some areas that are dysfunctional and they are the hardest to see in ourselves ... and usually the easiest to see in others! I've found it a good rule of thumb to look at what pisses Me off when someone else does it ... because that may well be one of My little failings too! I've achieved a lot of self-awareness this way and while I'm still definitely a work in progress ... at least it IS progress not standstill. Can't hope for too much more except maybe an accelerator pedal ;-) ... or to hold to the swimming analogy, one of those superfast new swimsuits! Maam Jay aka violet[A]

Prinsexx -> RE: When I was abusive I was blind to it (4/16/2008 3:07:41 AM)
Michael: as ever, thank you for this. My favourite psychotherapy joke? How many psychotherapists does it take to change a light bulb? That depends on whether the light bulb is willing to change or not. The analogy with the 'magick picture'....the ambiguous gestalt? you know the vase/couple, the old woman/young woman, the foreground background illusion...is great. I guess WE SEE WHAT WE WANT TO SEE in the other but the most difficult task IS TO SEE WHAT WE DON'T WANT TO SEE IN OURSELVES. I know I go for a cool behemian slightly off beat exterior in a dominant. I also know deep down, that I choose dysfunctional guys because I am a 'fixer'....so much a fixer that I am dependent on being a fixer for a sense of my own power. I have a slave mindset, so deep down holding onto my sense of self power is there. I've done it over and over and over again. And of course as you quite rightly say change is possible. But we (me, him, us, you, them.)....well we have to want to change. I know how to trigger Michael. I know how to push a button in someone else. I know exactly how to switch on their dysfunctional core so that I can make myself feel needed. Ok long pause.....sips of coffee.......... and THEN when I am needed, when there is any show of vulnerability in them I am off because i just wanted a non-dysfunctional one, one that was really in control, one that was fixed. OR DID I? This is timely. This time I have to do it differently Michael. Not only for my safety during the relationship but my safety afterwards. There's no pain worse than fleeing from someone I am labelling abusive when actually what I am trying to get away from is my own addiction to fixing them. That's the worse withdrawal symptom of all.

SimplyMichael -> RE: When I was abusive I was blind to it (4/16/2008 3:40:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists Problem is... just because we see that truth.. finally.... we can become stuck in it as well. We might have desires to change... but changing is not so easy. Sometimes it feels like one is a in a whirlpool.. going around and around... the hard you try to swim out... the more you seem to be sucked right in. We can struggle finding the way out of the years of habits and dysfunction... even thou we see it, admit it... we still seem to stay in that destructive cycle. There is no magic wand in these situations... just alot of hard work. slowly we swim with the whirlpool but only slight trying to veer way from the abyss. Sometimes we swim alot of miles just to move 10 feet away from the abyss that the whirlpool was taking us to. I have only collared one woman and I did so on the first night we played. We spent three years tormenting each other, we loved and lusted for each other but couldn't make it work. I began to realize and of course she pointed out I had issues. I had found and continue to find that I cannot deal with the issue until I can find what it was in childhood that "did" it to me. That relationship took about three plus years to self destruct and I bet almost a decade later our hearts are going to panick if we ever see each other, especially if the other is with someone. I wouldn't want her back and I am sure she feels the same way but despite the drama, the chemistry was real. After that I spent four years with a domme in a quasi vanilla relationship and after an initial bout of drama, I got therapy, found the root causes, learned some coping skills and emerged rather healed. I think the lessons of the prior relationsip had been percolating around and my partner at the time was perfect to help me move past things. quote: There is an interesting and positive thing about all that swimming as we work ourselves out from the abyss... we become stronger. Initially, as we struggle and fight... we can often feel the weakness. We might even slip back alittle from time to time. But, as one focuses, never gives up and as we start to make more distance between us and the abyss... it's hold on us is not so strong. The whirlpool is at it's strongest when we are near the edge of that abyss.... but as we pull away... it will start to lose it's grip on us. When we finally get out away from that whirlpool... we begin to realize just how strong we are. Swimming on that calm lake of life seem so much easier that what we remember... maybe because we spent must of our life navigating whirlpools. It's an odd benefit of coming out of one of life's whirlpools. Fast forward past my "crappy" period and things have gotten simple and calm. There are elements to my current relationship I KNOW I couldn't have handled before and for the most part have handled things well enough I could brag, but of course I am much to modest. In addition, and all kidding aside, the thing I am most proud of is how safe I have made bsb feel. Now she wasn't exactly skitish before I met her but she tells me she has never felt her heart to safer than it is with me. I just realized why I started this thread but couldn't put it into words. If the relationship is shitty, dump the bastard/bitch. However, if the chemistry is there, if the determination is there, people CAN change and trust me, connections are rare, so if as MaamJay says, "it IS progress not standstill" think before you throw it all way. Of course, LA is right as well, if you see dysfunction, move on before your heart plants roots. Ownedgirlie, you made my day. My favorite personal troll comming into my thread on how I have gotten over being passive aggressive and you throw in a little passive aggressive insult at me. One day you too will see in 3D how it isn't me that is "destructive" as you like to call me, but you. What is really ironic is how it is you who never comes out behind closed doors into our mutual BDSM community here in Sacramento, a community where I live my life as openly and as transparently as I do here. I will be the first to welcome you and buy you a cup of coffee.

SimplyMichael -> RE: When I was abusive I was blind to it (4/16/2008 3:43:01 AM)
quote: what I am trying to get away from is my own addiction to fixing them Fixing others is a distraction from fixing yourself.

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