RE: BDSM art and stories now illegal (Full Version)

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darkinshadows -> RE: BDSM art and stories now illegal (10/12/2005 10:00:00 AM)

quote:

He claims to be all for religious freedom, yet everything he does is specifically oriented towards Christianity; as if when all is said and done, that really turns out to be the best "faith" to base all our initiatives on.


Hello anthro.

I completely do understand your point of view, however I am not shy to admit I feel slightly offended by your statement.
I know you probably don't mean to make anyone feel offended in that sense by your words, but I am trying to be honest here with you.

Just because Bush claims to be doing Gods work, or that you view that what he does is aimed for christianity, doesnt make it so. I know that the moral and fundemental right can be a pain in the butt and totally judgemental and arrogant - but do people not think that there are christians who are just as disgusted at their stance as people like yourself?

I have noticed with increasing vigour, that non - religious people or those who have a different faith to chrisitanity can openly attack christianity and ridicule it continuously as though its the normal thing to do - but the reality is, is that it makes You(generic) no different to the 'christians' you are ridiculing or pointing fingers at. And it is no different to racism, or being anti-feminist or any other anti anything.

I don't think its got anything to do with political correctness either - but I just hope you are all aware that just as you have been put down and hurt or judged by this religion you keep putting down, there are the odd few who agree with your principles yet still have their faith - and your pointing and ridicule can hurt.

Sorry if this seems like I am jumping off the OP - I just had the need to say it.

Peace and Love



Lordandmaster -> RE: BDSM art and stories now illegal (10/12/2005 1:56:05 PM)

Angel, I don't see where he attacked Christianity. I think you're barking up the wrong tree with this one.



darkinshadows -> RE: BDSM art and stories now illegal (10/12/2005 2:08:13 PM)

I am not saying it is intentional, LaM - I guess I am just seeing the same thing happening over and over and it grows quite saddening, to my heart anyway.
I am just constantly bemused that just because Bush proclaims his christianity - its automatically assumed all christians side with him or benefit. We don't. When statements mention that his policies and aims are to benefit christianity, then that is a misunderstanding. I know pagans who are nothing but peace and gentleness, yet I know other pagans who think nothing but of darkness... wiccns who cast love and wiccans who cast for pain. But I do not judge all by one man or figure... yet christianity is often attributed to bush, just because of his proclaimations.

I ignore proclaimations by themselves. They are nothing but empty statements from boastful hearts. I look to works and deeds, their outcome and whether there is vanity or valour....

Peace and Love LaM - and thank You for Your kind and honourable point of view.



Lordandmaster -> RE: BDSM art and stories now illegal (10/12/2005 2:16:45 PM)

Well, basically I still agree with Anthro. When Bush says "faith," he really DOES mean "Christianity." (And when he uses words like "crusade," he's not just saying that off the cuff; he really intends all the menacing connotations of words like that.) Obviously that doesn't mean all Christians are Bush partisans--far from it--but I don't think that's what Anthro was saying.

I also agree with you that the dumb Christianity that's running around these days doesn't discredit ALL Christianity. But there is plenty of dumb Christianity running around these days. In fact, when you hear intelligent Christianity, it's so rare nowadays that it's like a breath of fresh air.



darkinshadows -> RE: BDSM art and stories now illegal (10/12/2005 2:23:21 PM)

I agree LaM that when bush talks faith, he is talking about christianity in his head - but like you have explained, its a far cry from how you described as intelligent christianity...
I am glad you called it that and not me.... lol

Peace and Respects LaM



JohnWarren -> RE: BDSM art and stories now illegal (10/12/2005 2:50:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Well, basically I still agree with Anthro. When Bush says "faith," he really DOES mean "Christianity." (And when he uses words like "crusade," he's not just saying that off the cuff; he really intends all the menacing connotations of words like that.) Obviously that doesn't mean all Christians are Bush partisans--far from it--but I don't think that's what Anthro was saying.

I also agree with you that the dumb Christianity that's running around these days doesn't discredit ALL Christianity. But there is plenty of dumb Christianity running around these days. In fact, when you hear intelligent Christianity, it's so rare nowadays that it's like a breath of fresh air.


/tongue in cheek activated

At least if Christ appeared now they wouldn't crucify him.
Of course there is Gitmo

/tongue in cheek deactivated

Seriously, a while back a friend of mine and I were at a Daughters of the American Revolution event. She commented, "You know, just think if a bewigged, perfumed Tory and a revolutionary soldier fresh from Valley Forge walked in right now, which one would be flung out into the street.

I wonder the same about Christ and the world today. He seemed to have some very definite opinions about wealth for wealth's sake, attacking others before considering ones own sins, churches seeking wealth and things like that.



mystictryst -> RE: BDSM art and stories now illegal (10/12/2005 3:19:30 PM)

This actually was a real shock to me. I had no idea that the US had gone so far.

I did a quick search and was actually surprised to learn that obscene material is not covered by the First Ammendment. Although, from what I read, it has been challenged numerous times, the Courts could not seem to come to any definate conclusions.

quote:

This much has been categorically settled by the Court, that obscene material is unprotected by the First Amendment. Kois v. Wisconsin, 408 U.S. 229 (1972); United States v. Reidel, 402 U.S., at 354 ; Roth v. United States, supra, at 485. 5 ... A state offense must also be limited to works which, taken as a whole, appeal to the prurient interest in sex, which portray sexual conduct in a patently offensive way, and which, taken as a whole, do not have serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.


Taken from http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com

I also found something (on this site) that also said these rulings covered both dipictions as well as descriptive forms.

Crazy!

Note: I usually cross check quotes with three websites, I did not do this on this post. I also removed a section from the above.





imtempting -> RE: BDSM art and stories now illegal (10/12/2005 3:26:38 PM)

I think Dark Angel was trying to say that everyone swell alot of people think that Bush speaks for every Christian. Its like saying terriosts speak for eevery islamic person when we know it is not true.




luvdragonx -> RE: BDSM art and stories now illegal (10/12/2005 4:16:01 PM)

Many of us understand that Bush isn't the Voice of Christianity, and we know that just because he calls himself a Christian doesn't mean that all Christians are like him. The problem that I have (and I agree with anthro on this one) is when Bush decides to choose Christianity FOR ME, by altering my freedoms and choices to suit HIS version of faith, not mine.



Fawne -> RE: BDSM art and stories now illegal (10/12/2005 4:52:14 PM)

Thanks for the topic.

This is soooo important. Freedom and privacy.

no joke..not at all.

humbly, fawne




anthrosub -> RE: BDSM art and stories now illegal (10/12/2005 5:16:23 PM)

LordandMaster and luvdragonx have the meaning and purpose of what I'm pointing out about Bush. It's clear to me this man has been and continues to implement his own personal agenda as President while claiming to be "open" to all possibilities. It's nothing but a smoke screen. The man is simply disingenuous.

I selected the "faith based initiatives" because it's one of the more obvious examples. The war in Iraq and how we entered into it is another example. All the crap about weapons of mass destruction was a ruse as was labeling the country a terrorist hotbed. He turned it into a terrorist hotbed by going in and Secretary of State Powell left the adminstration when it became clear the excuse would no longer hold up. Saddam tried to have his father assassinated during his vice-presidency under Reagan. Does that suggest anything?

anthrosub



happypervert -> RE: BDSM art and stories now illegal (10/12/2005 8:37:26 PM)

In a perverse way I'm glad to see Bush try to cram his moral agenda down our throats because I sense that it may signal the beginning of the end for the political influence of the religious right in the US. It seems to me that there has been ebb and flow in cultural mores over the past 50 years and Bush is hitting the limits of how far he can go before things start to go back the other way.

Seems to me that the 1950's was Ozzie and Harriet and leave it to Beaver lifestyles and then the turmoil of the '60s hit and disrupted that with a lot of social change. However, even though the desegration, women's and other movements got started then it took a while for the impacts to trickle through society. Then in the '80s the right started to get outraged; Jerry Falwell gained prominence, Pat Robertson even ran for president, and Dan Quayle first started test marketing the "family values" message. It gained popularity and eventually the republicans got total power and brought us crackpots like John Ashcroft (who lost his last election to a dead guy) among others. But their brand of Christian fundamentalism is no better than the Islamic fundamentalism they want to fight; I think within the 10 years folks will become as uncomfortable with the way they are trying to control our lifestyles just as they had been bothered by the decline in family values and then the republicans will find their asses voted out of power.

Hey, that's my theory anyway. It may be a product of my generally optimistic view on things, and I dread the thought that I may be wrong.



JohnWarren -> RE: BDSM art and stories now illegal (10/12/2005 9:08:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert
But their brand of Christian fundamentalism is no better than the Islamic fundamentalism they want to fight;


To get a really really good hate going one has to be close to the person being hated. That's why civil wars are so terrible. Mirrors are terrible things to look into for some people.

In the larger issue, I hope you are right about the swing back. Unfortunately it can take decades. I probably only have years.



SirKenin -> RE: BDSM art and stories now illegal (10/12/2005 9:38:31 PM)

Christianity is such a broad, sweeping term for one. I learned from a Christian forum (that supposedly was intended to promote unity, but instead promoted diversity), that there are all kinds of different faces to Christianity, and no one face is invalid. The truth is nobody has all the right answers out of all the denominations. It is pointless to fling mud, and it is equally pointless to get offended. Bush could very well be trying to address all Christianity, knowing full well in his wisdom that there are as many denominations as there are types of wildlife. A Christian only has to be born again and turn his/her back on sin to be a true Christian. That is it.

Also, in reference to the OP. Pornography is not free speech, as has been stated. Society does not need it. Society can live without it. It does more harm than good. Personally I do not care one way or the other. What I am saying is you are going to have to realize that the internet does not have to be invaded with crap in order for it to be a useful resource. It is that crap that the government is trying to crack down on, and power to them as far as I am concerned. There are more important things in the world to worry about than where you get your jollies.

Edit: With all the crap that is on the TV and in movies... With the thousands of porn sites that are out there. With all the magazines and other media. You're worried about this? And you complain about the American public?



Lordandmaster -> RE: BDSM art and stories now illegal (10/13/2005 1:24:28 AM)

It will be nice if the pendulum swings back the other way, but, as I said, I don't see too many indications that it's about to happen. People are pissed off about the economy and gas prices, not about the pendulum.

And people like Roberts and Miers might still be sitting on the Supreme Court all through the swinging of this pendulum.

Edited to add: Maybe this is the Religious Right's new strategy--out-procreate the competition!

http://www.comcast.net/news/national/index.jsp?cat=DOMESTIC&fn=/2005/10/12/240579.html

You can find the Duggars' family website here:

http://www.jimbob.info/



ShadeDiva -> RE: BDSM art and stories now illegal (10/13/2005 3:09:21 AM)

It's scary. REALLY scary. A judge was dismissed for being discovered for viewing porn. Granted it was on his work computer, but that's just a bay step to make way to dismissing ANY judge that views ANY porn. This bodes VERY ill for us, for sites like this, for our art, our stories, everything.

For if they make just plain old SEX illegal to view you think WE are safe? They dismiss every kinky judge,,,, just WHO is going to judge for US when we are facing court? I don't personally mix BDSM and sex, but even I know they go after sex they aren't going to tolerate kink.

The are trying to remove evolution from being taught in our schools in science, and to make teaching evolution ILLEGAL. They want to replace it with Intelligent Design which is basically Genesis revised in scientific lingo. This is getting scary and really fast and hardly anypne is even getting pissed about it.

When will we act? When merely owning a flogger is a crime? A whip? Cuffs? When will we act? When we have to hide who we are and worry that neighbors will rat us out? Or our kids urged to explore Mommy and Daddys drawers and to report any *deviant objects*?

They allow us to see endless people chopped up, but SEX has to be monitored? Between consenting ADULTS? So when all of us that have porn tapes or dvds are now in possession of illegal material ... will that be enough to make folks say NOW you have gone too far? When do we finally say ... enough is enough get OUT of my bedroom and home?

I'm scared and depressed and ANGRY. I feel that it seems like no one else is seeing this stuff. Am I overreacting? Is my ol' PMS causing me to go over the top? I wish I could say I'm just freaking out over nothing ... but AM I?

Somehow ... I don't think I am. And that saddens me and scares me silly. But look around you.

Midori's BeautyBound.com is closed. Subnation (http://www.madylarian.com/subnation/) is closed. More are closing every day. I'm considering closing mine, and that rankles me that I have to worry about sites now reduced to just message boards.

The impact is just starting to be felt. In 6 months this is not going to be an outlet for us. It might even go so far as if we visit foreign BDSM sites that will constitute illegal criminal behavior.

So get angry and find ways to voice your opinion to the powers that be NOW. It might not be too late just yet. We might be able to sway things still. So get angry and act and be heard before being heard is made into a criminal act.



frenchpet -> RE: BDSM art and stories now illegal (10/13/2005 3:43:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Edited to add: Maybe this is the Religious Right's new strategy--out-procreate the competition!

http://www.comcast.net/news/national/index.jsp?cat=DOMESTIC&fn=/2005/10/12/240579.html


Apparently they now lack the time to teach all of them not to pick their nose [8D].

ShadeDiva : A judge got dismissed over here too. He was masturbating under his robe (gown ? toga ?) while a lawyer was talking. A member of the jury noticed the movement of the robe (...), and they called that indecent exposure. I would have dismissed the member of the jury for not paying attention to what the lawyer was saying ! when did a moving piece of clothe become indecent ?

In fact, a moving bed sheet got the movie 3 iron R rated in the USA, so it's maybe not uncommon (Yes I loved this movie; no, golf is not really the center of the story).



frenchpet -> RE: BDSM art and stories now illegal (10/13/2005 3:56:09 AM)

oops



ShadeDiva -> RE: BDSM art and stories now illegal (10/13/2005 4:16:43 AM)

I really don't see how that relates lol.

I mean masturbating in your workplace in front of people while a case is in session is a bit different than viewing porn on a puter your work bought you in private I think.

I don't think the judge was watching Debbie Does Dallas in court while it was in session lol.

But maybe I'm wrong!



Lordandmaster -> RE: BDSM art and stories now illegal (10/13/2005 4:22:41 AM)

If I were involved in a lawsuit and discovered that the judge was jerking off while he was supposed to be paying attention to what was going on, I'd be incensed. So I agree with ShadeDiva--these two cases are not exactly of the same class.

However, I can see an argument to the effect that the judge who was removed for viewing porn was removed because he used his work computer for it--not because he was viewing porn. Although I'm not ruling out the possibility that one day all porn will be illegal, it's still a long way from dismissing a judge for misusing a work computer to dismissing a judge for viewing pornography in the privacy of his own home.



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