More UK Corruption. (Full Version)

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Politesub53 -> More UK Corruption. (4/17/2008 3:02:44 AM)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7351867.stm

It sickens me nothing is done about this. You can bet that none of the major players will get jail time. The company directors all get rich while the tax payer gets shafted. At least the authorities have finally uncovered this stuff. Not bad considering it has been a long standing problem here.




RealityLicks -> RE: More UK Corruption. (4/17/2008 3:22:12 AM)

Of 112 companies accused, 40 have admitted their guilt and 40 more have pleaded for leniency if they cooperate with the investigators.  And these firms are only in the frame because it would have taken too long to prosecute the 1000-odd firms shown to be involved in similar practices.

Last time round we heard the rather casuistic argument that bosses were concerned for their workforce's jobs, that they were right to stop at nothing in order to insure British success in export markets.  But these are private and listed companies stealing from us - over-charging us to build our universities, schools and - for fuck's sake - hospitals.  I hope we won't hear a similar chorus of justifications for this latest sample of the upright moral fibre of middle England.

Great post, Polite sub and I hope the rehabilitation of your knee is going well, too. [;)]




Aneirin -> RE: More UK Corruption. (4/17/2008 3:30:37 AM)

It seems to me successful business and crook go hand in hand

Is there such a thing as fair play in business ?




Politesub53 -> RE: More UK Corruption. (4/17/2008 3:35:36 AM)

Thanks RL, Actually it`s my shoulder i just had operated on, before that it was my knee. Both on the left.... The right side of me is, as ever, perfect [:D]

The whole thing that gets me about this, is everyones attitude that it is ok. it isnt. BTW add the the mix, the mutli million pound road and rail projects Balfour undertakes. My guess would be it is much the same with any industry undertaking government contracts, of any type.




Politesub53 -> RE: More UK Corruption. (4/17/2008 3:36:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

It seems to me successful business and crook go hand in hand

Is there such a thing as fair play in business ?


Probably not, isnt that a sad indication of life today though.




LadyEllen -> RE: More UK Corruption. (4/17/2008 3:39:00 AM)

I work in a different industry, international road transport - we could do with cartels, (just like the air and sea transport people have), and this is why.

Customers, quite understandably, are motivated to purchase the lowest price service they can find. Good for them, you might think - good for us on the supply side too, you might think; it will make us sharper and more competitive. But this "lowest price bidder" approach actually helps no one past a certain point - a point which was passed several years ago.

Because there are so many hauliers within the EU all competing for work, and because the vehicles they use and the permissible operation of those vehicles is controlled, their services become a commodity - and with commodities, there is a market price, which need not bear any relation to the costs of production. Factor in too, that trucks and trailers cost more or less the same everywhere, that the fuel costs, toll costs and night out pay for drivers costs everyone the same, and that even the mainstay of the modern market, the east European driver, is now costing more and you have a fairly level playing field in terms of production cost - at or just below €1-00 per km.

Customers, understandably, take advantage of the presence of so much competition to drive down prices - a good thing you might think. But when the prices paid in this commodity market are below the costs of production, it is far from a good thing. Hauliers go bust all over the place, and those who survive are doing so by unethical and sometimes illegal practices
- using untaxed diesel
- exceeding driving hours regulations by every trick in the book - a major safety concern
- employing illegal workers to drive (Ukrainians, Moldovans and so on) who work for half price compared even to the cheapest east European EU driver
- overloading trailers - a major safety concern
- not using regular maintenance - a major safety concern
In short, to survive the hauliers must cut corners, some of which represent serious safety concerns.

And this is also now a self-defeating approach for customers. They may have the lowest price bidder contracted, but the result of the approach is a haulier who often occasions enormous incidental costs to the customer, both financial and in terms of reputation.

There is a need in my opinion, in a market like ours, for some sort of conference (the name the sea and air transport people use for their cartels) to set minimum prices which will enable hauliers to survive and be able to invest in future service delivery and development. But the laws of the EU expressly forbid it - the sea and air people get away with it because they are not in the EU and therefore escape its reach. And our industry is highly fragmented - we were asked a while back to name our competitors for a survey; all we could answer was "tens of thousands". With such a supply side, it is impossible to unite.

16.3%. This is the decline in value of Sterling across a basket of EU currencies over the last twelve months. Hauliers incur their costs in Euro or one of the national currencies, so the Sterling prices paid by UK shippers and importers have declined in value by the same amount as far as the hauliers are concerned. Have prices risen? No. Is there any way for us on the supply side to impose a Currency Adjustment Factor (CAF) as the sea transport people do? No. And yet - the prices of the goods exported or imported and eventually sold into UK markets have been strongly affected by this.

UK consumers will be told that they must pay 16.3% more for their purchases because Sterling has gone down in value, plus a few more percent for fuel increases. Yet be assured - the importer hasnt paid a penny towards these increased costs - its all just extra profit for him.

E




RealityLicks -> RE: More UK Corruption. (4/17/2008 3:48:51 AM)

Balfour are up to their necks in the PPP used on the London Underground.  Everyone slams Ken Livingstone but actually he was the only politician to oppose it and identify the potential for light-fingered builders to get creative with their order books.  It didn't take a genius to see what was coming - a Tube system that is still crumbling away, ticket prices on the rise and with the cost of the Olympics (another goldmine, no doubt) Londoners have it rough.

It's the persistence of this fuckery that makes me ridicule the claims of the brittunculi, who see enemies without when the enemies are actually within.




RealityLicks -> RE: More UK Corruption. (4/17/2008 3:57:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen


Customers, quite understandably, are motivated to purchase the lowest price service they can find. Good for them, you might think - good for us on the supply side too, you might think; it will make us sharper and more competitive. But this "lowest price bidder" approach actually helps no one past a certain point - a point which was passed several years ago.


Sorry to cut your delightful post short, E but there is no indication and to my knowledge no evidence to suggest that price is the defining factor in these tenders - its' just the most important one to the constructors. 

Local authorities want facilities fit for purpose and on budget.  Price is a consideration yes, but there are many stages to delivery that simply aren't mirrored in haulage.

Otherwise, the cartels would merely settle for a reasonable price not a wildly inflated one and no-one would quibble.





LadyEllen -> RE: More UK Corruption. (4/17/2008 4:11:34 AM)

My post relates to my sector RL.

A sector in which we also get tender documents with similar platitudes about "standards", "quality" and multiple other bunkum which is there for the sake of appearance and just in case its absence might hit them in the back of the neck later on. The worst offenders are the largest companies. Of the largest companies, only the automotive sector means it when they want high KPI scores and so on, but they actually pay for it too. The rest want the lowest price plus the highest standard, which isnt possible - its one or the other, not both.

No one hopes to acquire the reliability of a Mercedes for the price of a Lada in normal life, but in my sector this is what customers seek. Our profitability of course is no concern of the customer, but what is of concern to him or should be, is that if he pays for a Lada, he can expect to have far more breakdowns.

But I do wonder how comparable the construction industry is with our own and at first sight it seems to be quite similar. Theyre all competing to build the same design in the same time. They all have to pay for the same materials. They all have to perform their contract to the same standard. What room is left for USPs there which will win the business on a factor other than lowest cost?

E




lronitulstahp -> RE: More UK Corruption. (4/17/2008 4:16:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Of 112 companies accused, 40 have admitted their guilt and 40 more have pleaded for leniency if they cooperate with the investigators.  And these firms are only in the frame because it would have taken too long to prosecute the 1000-odd firms shown to be involved in similar practices.

Last time round we heard the rather casuistic argument that bosses were concerned for their workforce's jobs, that they were right to stop at nothing in order to insure British success in export markets.  But these are private and listed companies stealing from us - over-charging us to build our universities, schools and - for fuck's sake - hospitals.  I hope we won't hear a similar chorus of justifications for this latest sample of the upright moral fibre of middle England.

Great post, Polite sub and I hope the rehabilitation of your knee is going well, too. [;)]
and this, folks, is why RL is sooo damned sexy.  How smart IS this man???*drooool*
disclaimer...you brits are whacked...we have we have nearly 4 million square miles and 300 million people worth of corruption going on....and we're a relatively YOUNG country, so we're just warming up. [;)] Go 'ave a cuppa and thank goodness you're in the UK....it could be worse.  God save the Queen.
 




RealityLicks -> RE: More UK Corruption. (4/17/2008 4:21:57 AM)

I can imagine there are many similarities in both business practice terms and contractually.  However, the head contractor on  large-scale, publicly funded civil engineering programmes has different responsibilities - which is why an enquiry into malpractice is front page news in one case but not in the other.

Ah well, so long as we can feel good about it, let's not bother to actually do any good, eh?




RealityLicks -> RE: More UK Corruption. (4/17/2008 4:28:59 AM)

Thanks, lronitulstahp.  Only reason I'm not your No1 fan is that the queue is so damn long.  But we excel at queueing over here so all is in hand.




lusciouslips19 -> RE: More UK Corruption. (4/17/2008 4:32:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Of 112 companies accused, 40 have admitted their guilt and 40 more have pleaded for leniency if they cooperate with the investigators.  And these firms are only in the frame because it would have taken too long to prosecute the 1000-odd firms shown to be involved in similar practices.

Last time round we heard the rather casuistic argument that bosses were concerned for their workforce's jobs, that they were right to stop at nothing in order to insure British success in export markets.  But these are private and listed companies stealing from us - over-charging us to build our universities, schools and - for fuck's sake - hospitals.  I hope we won't hear a similar chorus of justifications for this latest sample of the upright moral fibre of middle England.

Great post, Polite sub and I hope the rehabilitation of your knee is going well, too. [;)]
and this, folks, is why RL is sooo damned sexy.  How smart IS this man???*drooool*
disclaimer...you brits are whacked...we have we have nearly 4 million square miles and 300 million people worth of corruption going on....and we're a relatively YOUNG country, so we're just warming up. [;)] Go 'ave a cuppa and thank goodness you're in the UK....it could be worse.  God save the Queen.
 


Gawd, I love this girl. I wished you lived next door and we would sit on the porch with a cuppa, or mug, or goblet, or flute.




lronitulstahp -> RE: More UK Corruption. (4/17/2008 4:36:23 AM)

LOL...sweet talker..
(i'm completely gutted...i mask the pain with hotness and boobage[sm=preen.gif]...very much like a young Maggie Thatcher...)




kittinSol -> RE: More UK Corruption. (4/17/2008 4:44:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

Maggie Thatcher...)



[sm=axe.gif][sm=blasted.gif][sm=whoa.gif][sm=cool.gif][sm=yahoo.gif][sm=rofl.gif]




lronitulstahp -> RE: More UK Corruption. (4/17/2008 4:46:24 AM)

quote:

  Gawd, I love this girl. I wished you lived next door and we would sit on the porch with a cuppa, or mug, or goblet, or flute.

 you beautiful doll... sooo sweet...and so many choices.  i think i'd take the "cuppa" for 500 Alex... 




RealityLicks -> RE: More UK Corruption. (4/17/2008 4:48:49 AM)

Yeah, she leads you in then feeds you to the Iron Lady.  lronitulstahp is one sadistic sub.  She does make up for it in hotness though, it must be said.




lronitulstahp -> RE: More UK Corruption. (4/17/2008 4:49:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

Maggie Thatcher...)



[sm=axe.gif][sm=blasted.gif][sm=whoa.gif][sm=cool.gif][sm=yahoo.gif][sm=rofl.gif]
 i think on a strictly subconscious level, you may have some slightly unresolved feelings of hostility against former conservative female PM...just maybe...




SadistsSeeking -> RE: More UK Corruption. (4/17/2008 4:51:07 AM)

"...Is there such a thing as fair play in business ?..."
In a street fight, do you fight fair?  If you do I know who's not going to walk away from that fight.  The same in business, if you play fair, you go out of business. 




lronitulstahp -> RE: More UK Corruption. (4/17/2008 4:56:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistsSeeking

"...Is there such a thing as fair play in business ?..."
In a street fight, do you fight fair?  If you do I know who's not going to walk away from that fight.  The same in business, if you play fair, you go out of business. 
the difference being, in a street fight only the participants are injured.  In crooked business, it's usually the innocent that are hurt...pensioners, lower-level pee-ons, consumers, small time investors...the active participants in dirty dealings get what usually amounts to a slap on the wrist.  It's amazing how humans have evolved...only to become the most ravenous creatures, feeding of their own kind in the name of "business as usual".  Even wolves have more compassion....




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