RE: "Moral Waivers" Increased (Full Version)

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hisannabelle -> RE: "Moral Waivers" Increased (4/22/2008 2:27:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Get off that brain and let it get some oxygen.

Nobody in their right mind would enlist unless they have nowhere else to go.

Remember I said in their right mind.

T


t, i never promised i was in my right mind :) kind of lost its appeal though once they got rid of the tomcat (my favorite thing about the navy, and what i wanted to do). i'd still love to be a chaplain for the army, though.

general reply - i have to agree with vendaval that it really does depend on the offense. although i do think lronitulstahp is right that it's a bit hypocritical, and the whole issue of sexual offense does bother me, considering that it's one of the biggest problems women in the military face (please spare me the "women shouldn't be serving in combat zones with men" argument). yes, often people are unfairly or unclearly labeled as sex offenders, and that is a serious problem, but there are also people who are actually sex offenders. and there are logical reasons why the army requires a waiver to allow someone who's committed a felony to enlist.

firmhandky, according to the article posted, 20% of enlisted soldiers have a moral waiver. despite the fact that the ones being admitted by year may only be a fraction of all the enlisted going in in -that year-, looking at how many are in the army as a whole does change the landscape a bit in my opinion.

// //
quote:

Waxman told Chu that while "providing opportunities to individuals who have served their sentences and rehabilitated themselves" is important, the waivers are a sign that the US military is stretched too thin. The total number of moral waivers in the military reached 34,476 in 2006, or nearly 20% of all enlisted soldiers, according to the Palm centre at the University of California. Recruits with felony convictions are more likely than other soldiers to drop out or be released from the military, often at a significant cost to the US government.


while i support the fact that the military can be rehabilitative for some, i think putting more energy into non-military rehabilitation programs would be more effective. and while i do believe that people should not have to spend their whole lives paying for their crimes if the courts give them a specific punishment and they serve that punishment, there are also reasons why felons have to be waived in in the first place.




lronitulstahp -> RE: "Moral Waivers" Increased (4/22/2008 4:24:57 AM)

   i think the 1950's- juvenile delinquent and today's druggie have pretty significant differences.  There's also the idea of utter hypocracy....a sex offender may not live wherever they choose in the US.  They are considered a threat to society(and public urination isn't the type of sex offender that comes to my mind right now)...but they are good enough to be unleashed in other countries, as a representative of this country.  Seriously...as if we're doing such a greeat job internationally already.  
  Most of all, i still find it pathetic that homosexuality is considered immoral, and worthy of ruination for a person in the military, but that criminals can freely serve, and are encouraged to enlist.  That's just unbelievable to me.  In essence, they are saying, " Burglars are more palatable to us than buggars."  It's like a modern day, "Give us Barrabas!"  Oh, but that may be stepping on some toes...let me try again...since people use the bible to defend their stance on gays in the military...well burglars are ok...but wait "thou shalt not steal,covet,lie"....damn i suppose the government will have to rethink "don't ask, don't tell"  bible thumpers being what they are...and yet...  Somehow i doubt it's even an issue.  They only get riled up when consensual sodomy is involved. Isn't it ironic that most homo-phobes are "fucking assholes"?




RCdc -> RE: "Moral Waivers" Increased (4/22/2008 4:54:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop
I'd kinda like to enlist.  Granted, I'm in noway able to serve in a combat position,but there's plenty of other things I could do...
the problem?
I'm too old.


This is Darcy

I can see you as a fantastic interrogator.

GT: "Now where did I put those testicular electrodes......" [sm=mistress.gif]

[;)] x x




FirmhandKY -> RE: "Moral Waivers" Increased (4/22/2008 10:11:50 AM)

FR:

Let's see how the "system" handles all them "sex offense waivers".

Criminal History Waivers

As with the other services, the United States Marine Corps and United States Navy screen applicants for "moral qualifications" (criminal history). This is done:

     a. To prevent enlistment of persons whose social habits, such as theft, arson, resistance to authority, etc., are a threat to unit moral and cohesiveness.

     b. To screen out persons who would likely become serious disciplinary problems in the Navy and Marine Corps, and who would consequently divert resources from the performance of military missions.

     c. To ensure enlistees and their parents that the enlistee will not be thrown into close association with criminals.

Applicants with no criminal convictions, fines, or periods of restraint are morally eligible for enlistment. However, the voluntary disclosure, or recruiter discovery, of any form of police/criminal involvement by an applicant may require waiver of the moral disqualification.

It's important to note here that federal law requires applicants to divulge ALL criminal history on recruiting applications, including expunged, sealed, or juvenile records. Additionally, in most states, such records are accessible to military investigators, regardless of what you have heard to the contrary.

The process begins with an interview by the Recruiter, asking the applicant about any records of arrest, charges, juvenile court adjudications, traffic violations, probation periods, dismissed or pending charges or convictions, including those which have been expunged or sealed. Providing false information, or withholding required information is a federal offense, and individuals may be tried by Federal, civilian, or Military Court.

If the applicant admits to an offense, or the recruiter has reason to believe the applicant is concealing an offense, or a record is indicated during the Entrance National Agency Check (ENAC), then the recruiter will request a complete criminal record from local law enforcement agencies.

Some offenses can be waived, and others cannot. Different offenses require waiver approval at different levels in the recruiting chain-of-command.

It's important to note that applicants who require a waiver ARE NOT qualified for enlistment, unless/until a waiver is approved. The burden is on the applicant to prove to waiver authorities that they have overcome their disqualifications for enlistment, and that their acceptance would be in the best interests of the Military. Waiver authorities will consider the "whole person" concept when considering waiver applications.

In general, waivers are required for:

      Five to Nine minor traffic offenses

     Two to five more serious traffic offenses

     Two or more Class 1 minor non-traffic offenses

     Two to Nine Class 2 minor non-traffic offenses

     Two to five serious offenses

     One felony


Individuals with ten or more minor traffic offenses, six or more serious traffic offenses, ten or more Class 2 minor non-traffic offenses, six or more serious non-traffic offenses, or more than one felony are not eligible for a waiver.

Definitions and General Guidelines:

Adverse Juvenile Adjudication.

     a. Determination by a judge or jury in juvenile court proceedings that the juvenile is guilty of, or that the individual committed the acts alleged in the petition or complaint, based either on the merits of the case or on the juvenile's admission of guilt or plea of guilty, and that the determination was recorded in the court's records, and

           (1) Regardless of whether sentence was then imposed, withheld, or suspended, and,

           (2) Regardless of subsequent proceedings in the same case to delete an initial determination of guilt from court records, based on evidence of rehabilitation or a satisfactory period of probation or supervision. Examples of "subsequent proceedings" used in juvenile courts in the United States are: "expungement," "record sealing," reopening the case to change the original finding of "guilty" or "delinquency," or the plea of "guilty" or admission of the truth of the allegations in the petition to "not guilty," dismissal of the original petition, setting aside the adjudication of "delinquency." Such subsequent proceedings merely recognize rehabilitation and do not alter the fact that the juvenile committed the act for which the individual was tried.


   b. The term "adverse juvenile adjudication" is an adjudication as a juvenile delinquent, wayward minor, youthful offender, delinquent child, juvenile offender, incorrigible, and a declaration of the juvenile as a ward of the court, or an award of probation or punishment by a juvenile court as a result of an offense. The term "ward of the court" does not include the adjudication of a juvenile as a "dependent," as "neglected," or as "abandoned."

c. For purposes of a waiver, processing will be based on the severity of the specific offense for which an applicant was adjudged. The offense's severity will be determined by the Uniform Guide List for Typical Offenses, above or by the notes contained therein if the offense is not specifically listed by name.

Once the request for a moral waiver is at the proper decision level, factors such as the applicant's age at the time of the offense, the actual sentence imposed by the court, etc., will be considered.

Community Service. A sentence of a specific amount of labor to be performed for the benefit of the community at large. Community service is a form of fine or restitution, but is not a form of restraint. Applicants who have been directed by judicial authority to perform community service are not eligible for enlistment until such service has been completed and the appropriate waiver has been granted.

Conviction.

     a. Determination of "guilty" by a judge or jury, based either on the merits of a case or on a defendant's plea of "guilty" or of "nolo contendere":

           (1) Regardless of whether sentence was then imposed, withheld, or suspended; and

           (2) Regardless of subsequent proceedings in the case to delete an initial determination of "guilty" from court records because of evidence of rehabilitation or completion of a satisfactory probationary period. Examples of "subsequent proceedings" used throughout the United States in adult offender cases are: "pardon," "expungement," reopening of the case to change the original finding of "guilty" or pleas of "guilty" or "nolo contendere" to "not guilty" and dismissal of the charge, "amnesty," or setting aside of conviction. Such subsequent proceedings recognize rehabilitation, but do not alter the fact that the offender committed the criminal act.

     b. Sanctions imposed by a law enforcement or quasi-law enforcement agency in place of an official court hearing or trial will NOT BE considered "convictions." Sanctions of this nature require a review by the Recruiting Service. See the following examples.

           (1) An applicant is caught by the police defacing public property by painting graffiti on a bridge. The officer directs the applicant to sandpaper the bridge until it is clean, at which time he will forget about the incident. This is a sanction and requires review by the recruiting service.

           (2) An applicant is caught by the police defacing public property by painting graffiti on a bridge. The applicant is charged, but subsequently referred to a county-sanctioned juvenile first offender's program. Although the applicant never appears in court, and probably has no court record, he requires a waiver as if convicted.

     Note: As a general rule of thumb, any requirements imposed by an officer of the court (i.e., judge, magistrate, district attorney, assistant district attorney, juvenile officer, or probation officer), will be viewed as a conviction for enlistment purposes. Pretrial intervention or diversionary programs will be considered a "conviction". Similarly, requirements imposed by law enforcement officials, (i.e., police, sheriffs, deputy sheriffs, or state troopers), will be viewed as a sanction. The key question is, "Was this a formal program of the court?"

     c. Convictions or charges that have been reduced for expediency, as in "plea-bargaining," or plea to a reduced or lesser charge will be waived at the level appropriate for the original charges.

Expungement.Some states have established procedures for the subsequent "expunging of the record," "dismissal of charges," or "pardon" upon evidence of rehabilitation of the offender. Such action has the legal effect of extinguishing the initial "conviction" or "adverse juvenile adjudication" so that, under state law, the applicant has no record of conviction or adverse juvenile adjudication. In spite of this action, the record must be revealed and a waiver of the applicant's disqualification(s) is required at the proper enlistment decision level.

Nolle Prosequi. "Nolle Prosequi" is a declaration that the plaintiff in a civil case, or the prosecutor in a criminal case, will drop prosecution of all, or part, of a suit or indictment. "Nolle Prosequi" is an unresolved judicial proceeding. It is not considered a form of restraint, and is not necessarily a bar to enlistment. It is, however, considered a conviction for enlistment purposes and a waiver is required. Accordingly, an appropriate level review is required prior to enlistment to ensure that the court's finding of nolle prosequi was based on the merits of the individual case and not to facilitate enlistment into the Armed Forces. If court documents by court authorities (i.e. Judge, DA, A.D.A.) showing the "nolle prosequi" were the result of insufficient evidence to convict or charge, then this will not be viewed as a conviction.

Nolo Contendere. "Nolo Contendere" is a plea made by a defendant in a criminal action equal to an admission of guilt. With this plea a defendant is subject to punishment, but leaves open the possibilities for denial of the alleged facts in other proceedings. A waiver is required.

Probation.The suspension of a sentence of an individual convicted but not yet imprisoned for that conviction, on condition of continued good behavior and regular reporting to (under the supervision of) a probation officer or other agent designated by the court. Regional legal terms synonymous to "probation" will be treated exactly as probation is used throughout this information page.

Restraint. "Restraint" includes suspension of a sentence (to include unconditional suspended sentences), confinement or incarceration in any institution, probation (to include unsupervised unconditional probation), or parole.

Sealed Juvenile Records. Several states have provisions for "sealing juvenile records" which serves to limit disclosures on the part of law enforcement officials and judicial authorities. In spite of the legal effect of such action, the applicant must reveal the record, and a moral waiver must be granted to authorize enlistment in these cases.

...

Enlistment As An Alternative To Prosecution. Applicants may not enlist as an alternative to criminal prosecution, indictment, incarceration, parole, probation, or other punitive sentence. They are ineligible for enlistment until the original assigned sentence would have been completed.

Special Requirements for Substance Abuse:

No drug-related waiver will be considered without a signed, complete copy of the Drug Abuse Screening Form.

Waivers will not be granted to non-prior service applicants who:

     a. Have a history of drug or alcohol dependency or addiction; or

     b. Have a court conviction for any drug offense (except simple possession of cannabis [30 grams or less], and steroids); or

     c. Admit to trafficking marijuana or other illegal drugs.

     (Note: "Trafficking" in drugs will be considered the unlicensed sale or trade of drugs for profit.)

     d. Applicants who have been disqualified for testing positive on the DAT at MEPS.

...

Convictions for possession of drug paraphernalia will be treated, for the purpose of an enlistment waiver, as if they were convictions for possession of the actual drug associated with the particular piece of paraphernalia.

The commanding officer of the recruiting station may waive the illegal use of prescription drugs prior to enlistment in the DEP when an applicant has been administered a prescription drug for medical purposes by a parent or person acting in the capacity of "loco parentis" when that drug has not been prescribed for the applicant. Examples include, but are not limited to, Valium and Tylenol III. All other illegal use of prescription drugs requires a waiver from the district commander.

Each decision authority (e.g., the recruiter; NCOIC; the CO recruiting station; the CO, recruiting district; or the CG, recruiting region) may deem the extent of an applicant's pre-service drug involvement to be excessive and opt not to favorably endorse the applicant's waiver request thereby terminating processing.

Failure to Disclose. An applicant may be discharged for failure to disclose use or abuse of illegal or prescribed drugs, to include convictions resulting from that use or abuse. The recruiter will advise the applicant of the serious ramifications which could result from failure to disclose.

kinda long, but I think this may shed some light on the process.

Firm





Hippiekinkster -> RE: "Moral Waivers" Increased (4/22/2008 10:20:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

FR:

A little perspective:

The Army recruits 80,000 new soldiers a year.

The total number of felon waivers the Army granted last year?  511.

For you math wizards out there, that's a whopping 0.0063875 percent.

Firm

For you math wizards posing as math wizards, that's 0.63875%.




charmdpetKeira -> RE: "Moral Waivers" Increased (4/22/2008 10:29:27 AM)

Firm,
 
You seem to have great conviction in what you stand for. It is something I admire; after all, you’ve got to stand for something.
 
It bewilders me, however, that you would continue to believe the word of those who would lie to your face.
 
I mean, who owns The New York Times Company?
 
k




FirmhandKY -> RE: "Moral Waivers" Increased (4/22/2008 11:14:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

FR:

A little perspective:

The Army recruits 80,000 new soldiers a year.

The total number of felon waivers the Army granted last year?  511.

For you math wizards out there, that's a whopping 0.0063875 percent.

Firm

For you math wizards posing as math wizards, that's 0.63875%.


Damn.

Someone actually did the math and caught me.

Firm




JohnWarren -> RE: "Moral Waivers" Increased (4/22/2008 11:19:41 AM)

Damn, back in my day, it wasn't unusual for a judge to give a man a choice between one of the services or jail.  "Make an honest man of ya, or kill ya" he might well say.

I can't say how well it worked but the Marines of that era were legendary.

Some military units like the Légion étrangère claim to be proud of how many of their recruits arrive a few step ahead of the cops




hisannabelle -> RE: "Moral Waivers" Increased (4/22/2008 12:36:17 PM)

they were legendary, but that was also the era when it was not all that uncommon for marines to die during boot camp because of some of what they were subjected to. i remember my dad telling about the guys who died when he was in boot camp. i realize that a lot of people support those kinds of training methods because of what marines have to face in war zones, but there are also reasons why there are rules against certain things now (and why there are more restrictions on the "make an honest man of you or kill you" method of dealing with convicts).




JohnWarren -> RE: "Moral Waivers" Increased (4/22/2008 1:45:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

they were legendary, but that was also the era when it was not all that uncommon for marines to die during boot camp because of some of what they were subjected to. i remember my dad telling about the guys who died when he was in boot camp. i realize that a lot of people support those kinds of training methods because of what marines have to face in war zones, but there are also reasons why there are rules against certain things now (and why there are more restrictions on the "make an honest man of you or kill you" method of dealing with convicts).


Training has to be tough or it isn't worth the effort.  The Romans had a saying "The more sweat in training, the less blood in battle."  Sadly, standards have slipped a lot.  We were a lot better off under the old "Rocks and Shoals"   (Articles of War) than under the new "Uniform Code of Military Justice" where every recruit has a lawer at his beck and call.

It's not a new problem.  Kipling talked about it in "That Day"

We was rotten 'fore we started -- we was never disciplined;
 We made it out a favour if an order was obeyed;
Yes, every little drummer 'ad 'is rights an' wrongs to mind,
 So we had to pay for teachin' -- an' we paid!


I, for one, think the price should be paid in advance.  It's a lot cheaper that way




Smith117 -> RE: "Moral Waivers" Increased (4/22/2008 2:32:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp
  i think the 1950's- juvenile delinquent and today's druggie have pretty significant differences. 


That depends on how you define "druggie" I suppose. Marijuana was legal until sometime in the 1930's and even alcohol was illegal for a time. I think someone selling pounds of cocain to a bunch of UMs each day is a far cry from the guy who got caught with half a roach in his ash tray when he got pulled over for speeding.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp
  There's also the idea of utter hypocracy....a sex offender may not live wherever they choose in the US.  They are considered a threat to society(and public urination isn't the type of sex offender that comes to my mind right now)...but they are good enough to be unleashed in other countries, as a representative of this country. 


Something tells me they are allowing more of 'my' example of a sex offender, rather than yours. Something in me just refuses to believe they'd put an offender of 'that' calibur in the service. And since their records aren't made public, we really won't know so it does no good to debate or argue either way because we are arguing about something that, so long as they keep their nose clean, we will never know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp
  Most of all, i still find it pathetic that homosexuality is considered immoral, and worthy of ruination for a person in the military, but that criminals can freely serve, and are encouraged to enlist.


I think this is a bit goofy too. I've met many gay guys and wasn't put off by any.....well...maybe the really flamboyant ones. Personally, in a foxhole surrounded by incoming fire, I'd rather have a gay guy next to me rather than a woman. Call me old fashioned, but in the event of capture, I'd be more worried about what the enemy would do to a female combatant than a male one. The stories I've heard some enemy soldiers doing to males is bad enough, I'd hate to think of them doing worse things to females.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp
Isn't it ironic that most homo-phobes are "fucking assholes"?


I'd wager most homophobes actually are, somewhere deep down, a little 'curious' themselves, and it's that part of them that drives them to their fear and hate.

On a general note: it's been frequently noted that the military is essentially a 'microcosm of society' meaning that whatever evils that exist in society can also be found in the military. However, since the military is a substantially smaller group within society, the ratio is larger. If you don't think there are drug busts in the military already, you're dead wrong. At one base I went to, right before I arrived...something like half of one floor of one dorm was busted for possession and use.

The military, barring any exclusionary reason, must take any and all comers. The ones who are going to do drugs or commit assault or theft are going to anyway....the uniform is only the job they are doing when they get caught.

As far as taking people they already know have drugs or whatever in their past, that just means they will likely be piss-tested and 'watched' moreso than others and treated less tolerantly than a first-offending troop should they re-commit whatever crime they did originally.




thornhappy -> RE: "Moral Waivers" Increased (4/22/2008 3:32:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MiketheSpike

This is nothing new.  We use to get people from prison when I first enlisted in the United States Army back in the 1970s.  Sometimes being in the military can straighten out some people who come out of prison to serve, but not all of them. 

And the army in the '70s was widely considered to be broken, after the manpower changes due to Vietnam.

thornhappy




julietsierra -> RE: "Moral Waivers" Increased (4/22/2008 6:19:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Owing to meeting the demands of the surge and other factors associated withthe war in Iraq, the US Army increased the number of recruits enlisted despite being convicted felons.

quote:

The felons accepted into the army and marines included 87 soldiers convicted of assault or maiming, 130 convicted of non-marijuana drug offences, seven convicted of making terrorist threats, and two convicted of indecent behaviour with a child. Waivers were also granted to 500 burglars and thieves, 19 arsonists and 9 sex offenders.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/21/usa1






quote:


You can get anything you want at Alice's restaurant
You can get anything you want at Alice's restaurant
Walk right in, it's around the back
Just a half a mile from the railroad track
You can get anything you want at Alice's restaurant

<snip>
He stopped me right there and said, "Kid, have you ever been to court?" And I proceeded to tell him the story of the twenty-seven 8 x 10 colored glossy pictures with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one . . .

He stopped me right there and said, "Kid, I want you to go over and sit down on that bench that says 'Group W'."

And I walked over to the bench there, and there's... Group W is where they put you if you may not be moral enough to join the army after committin' your special crime.
 
There was all kinds of mean, nasty, ugly-lookin' people on the bench there . . . there was mother-rapers . . . father-stabbers . . . father-rapers! FATHER-RAPERS sittin' right there on the bench next to me! And they was mean and nasty and ugly and horrible and crime fightin' guys were sittin' there on the bench, and the meanest, ugliest, nastiest one . . . the meanest father-raper of them all . . . was comin' over to me, and he was mean and ugly and nasty and horrible and all kinds of things, and he sat down next to me. He said, "Kid, what'd you get?"

I said, "I didn't get nothin'. I had to pay fifty dollars and pick up the garbage."

He said, "What were you arrested for, kid?" and I said, "Litterin'"' . . . . And they all moved away from me on the bench there, with the hairy eyeball and all kinds of mean, nasty things, till I said, "And creatin' a nuisance . . . " And they all came back, shook my hand, and we had a great time on the bench talkin' about crime, mother-stabbin', father-rapin', . . . all kinds of groovy things that we was talkin' about on the bench, and everything was fine.


wow..that brings back memories.

http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/parton/2/alice.html

juliet





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