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tsatske -> RE: Punishment Dynamic (4/22/2008 5:56:54 AM)
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:ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross For me the fact that things have gotten SO bad that I have to actually work and produce time for a punishment, take time away from us being happy together, shows that somethings been going wrong for a long time. This means my methods and plans have flaws I didn't see, this means my judgement has some flaws and blindspots, this means our dynamic has some flaws and blind spots. And just saying "bad girl, go sit in the corner" isn't going to fix any of that, or produce the behavior really desired in the long term. A huge majority of punishments simply wipe away the symptom and do nothing for the actual cause of the problem.
Tstaske: Thanks for starting the thread. Just for the record, What Lucky wrote (key points quoted above) speaks to my issues with punishment as well. Stipulated, some forms of disobedience are accidental (misunderstandings, usually). But disobedience that actually requires correction speaks to me of a more fundamental problem in the relationship. Under those conditions punishment looks more like an effort to keep someone in line who doesn't really want to serve.
I also very much liked what LA wrote. punishment for us is never, ever a quick easy substitute for communication. It is in fact, a very specific, ritualized form of communication - scolding - that is what makes a punishment a punishment, for me. I listen and allow myself to feel what is being said to me, and he explains what went wrong, from his point of view.
After the punishment, there is open, two way communication, and we talk about what needs to happen to keep moving in the directions we want to move, and helping me and us grow.
I could do that during the 'talk' before punishment. He would certainly never stop me from communicating to Him. I just can't, at that point it would feel to me like I was making excuses. After having been punished, there is no 'excuse' feeling, after all, why make excuses now? my dues have been paid. Then i feel okay with talking about what went on with me. 'I was so tired today, i think i'm getting sick' - to him, he would say, that's not an excuse, that's a reason. he would take it into consideration, if i wanted to tell him before being punished. but it does not work for me, to me it would feel like i was making excuses. after i have been punished, though, i feel completely free to say that, or things like it. how is it an excuse, after the punishment? if i still feel it is true, then it becomes a discussion of the problem - well, what could we do differently? what could change? in the 'i was so tired and feel sick' example, we might say, 'could you not have just asked to be given a light day and said you didn't feel well?' and then talk about how hard it is (and, oh, god, it is) for me to do that.
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Perhaps a few questions (keeping in mind I do not expect one answer will apply to everyone): 1. Does punishment take the place of communication, or does it occur after communication produces the desired results (reconciliation), thus punishment becomes like a ritual signifying the end of the crisis?
I like the language you used, 'a ritual signifying the end of the crisis'. That is exactly what it is. Every punishment ends with him saying, 'you are forgiven', even when he is punishing me more because i need it than because he was all that upset/disappointed with my behavior himself. he is giving me what i need, and what i need to hear. the problem is already taken care of. if punishment is 'necessary' to make someone obey, you have a problem. with that i agree.
the one time he has specifically punished me by refusing to punish me, he felt that my behavior warranted it, and that, specifically, it was a behavior that could best be rectified by my reflection and by allow me to feel bad. i did get the scolding, thoroughly, him explaining exactly what the behavior had done to him, how it affected him. he told me very plainly he would not be punishing me, and that, yes, he knew that would be hard for me. he was also the tender, loving Master he always is, he held me while i cried and said, 'when you think about doing that kind of thing again, remember what this feels like, little one.'
but i had to go to him and tell him that while i accepted this was his decision, i was going to struggle with serving him, with not feeling that i had the right or deserved to serve him, until i knew i was forgiven. i knew i would not be hearing those words that were part of the punishment ritual for us, so i needed him to find a way to let me know that it was over.
He called me to him later and told me to sit at his feet while he worked, then told me to gather my things and let me sleep on the floor beside his side of the bed. as much as i am always thrilled to be allowed to sleep on the floor, and i am, i have never been happier about it then i was that night.
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2. I noted someone mentioning that punishment depended upon the "mood" of the dom. Is it wise/common to administer corporal punishment while frustrated/angry/hurt?
that is a dynamic that does not resonate with me, so i can not answer fairly. in our life, if he had any strong emotions, he would take time away by himself and get them under control before even entering into the scolding part of the punishment ritual. punishment is done by a loving Master who is helping to guide me in growth, not by an angry husband/boyfriend who is pissed at me for being a bitch.
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3. Assuming the disobedience is not accidental, why would a sub/slave engage in disobedience knowing how it will disappoint her dom/master and furthermore knowing it will involve punishment to absolve her?
My last Master said on several occasions, I never willfully disobey. But to me there is a whole grey area between willful disobedience and an accident. Is it an accident if you get a speeding ticket? I mean, you knew what the speed limit was, and you were driving too fast. how is that an accident?
If you break your diet, is that an accident? more like a momentary failure of willpower than an accident.
If you forget something important, forgetting is not exactly an accident, it is something else - forgetfulness.
On Mondays, he inspects the house. That is because I do Flylady, and Monday is houseblessing day. Yesterday, the house did not get blessed. This is because: 1. I am having a gout attack and walking is painful. and 2. We just brought a bunch of my stuff from storage and I am trying to go through it and put it away. Of course, it is really not in the way and I should have ignored it and did my Monday jobs, and gotten to it later. but, naturally, i thought i could get to it all, and... how is that an accident? It is not willfull, i did not intend to disobey, but it is also not an accident. (yesterday i did not get punished, btw, i got officially stuck on the injured list and told to take care of my self. i thought i should be punished, of course, i always think that. Master takes a more temperate view)
But do you see what I mean? Punishment works best for me when behavior was not a simple accident, but was also not willfull misbehavior, if that makes sense.
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