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RE: Punishment Dynamic - 4/22/2008 7:53:45 AM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		We practice domestic discipline with most punishments being formalized spankings and corner time with adjustments depending on the situation as determined by my Master.

When seeking out a Master I looked for a disciplinarian who believed in doing punishments. The reasons why I like it because it does in many sense take away emotions like guilt or arbitrary in the moment rational and decisions. Do I feel guilty on some things, of course, but there are also things that I am a human being and screw ups happen.

For us a punishment system just promotes consistency, a good atmosphere for the power exchange dynamic and a process to deal with situations, process them and move on. It has been my experience that in a good relationship most screw ups are just that screw ups and not something to beat ourselves up over or for the dominant to question our commitment or ability to be obedient.

For me punishments help me focus better, feel more submissive and helps keep me on my toes. It never does though make me feel like I am walking on egg shells or turns my Master into some sort of drill sergeant.


_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to tsatske)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Punishment Dynamic - 4/22/2008 8:03:58 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline 		Thank you, Tsatske. That helped a great deal in understanding how punishment works in your life. You also helped me to understand your need for it.

You have me wondering whether punishment earlier in your life, outside of bdsm relationships, might not have wired you to feel the need for it in circumstances such as you've described. Perhaps a lack of punishment coupled with a lack of closure, or experience with punishment as closure?

In my own past punishment was never practiced. If there was a problem: instruction/correction was used in the form of discussion. That was where I learned that abiding by the rules was one of the best ways of expressing love and devotion. Thus breaking the rules became synonymous with selfishness and thoughtlessness.

There was nothing less desirable than letting down those I loved: it was a failure in me to do so. Not only did those who made the rules expect better of me, I expected better of me.

Punishment would have been superfluous, for there is no better goad than love (for me).

Closure came when I recognized my error, how I'd come to make it, and had committed myself to correcting it. As long as I did not repeat the error (and I don't recall repeating mistakes), the matter remained closed.

Thus I am wondering whether the need or lack of need for punishment has a history pre-dating our involvement in bdsm.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to tsatske)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Punishment Dynamic - 4/22/2008 8:40:01 AM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
What I don't understand is why others tend to argue against that which works for two consenting adults, and then demean it by implying they are not really adults.


OG, what I see usually happening, and why I usually argue against it, is that there is no mention whatsoever of discussion, discipline, anything to change the behavior that brings about the punishment in the first place.  It's a straight jump from wrongdoing to punishment.  And to me, my two pence, YMMV, all-other-disclaimers-in-place, that is how immature parents handle their children.  They do nothing to deal with WHY there is a problem, they simply punish.  Little Susie is whining in the grocery store? Mom smacks her.  Does Mom even stop to think that Susie is tired and hungry and bored and cranky, and that if Mom had brought a box of raisins or a toy or even went to the store after naptime, then Susie wouldn't be misbehaving? No, she doesn't, she jumps straight to punishment.

Two times in my adult life I have asked for punishment to deal with guilt.  The guilt I had was that I made a promise to myself on how to deal with a certain person, and I didn't follow my own promise, and I felt incredibly guilty at my own weakness in that area.  I couldn't figure out why I couldn't let go of the guilt, and then I realized it was that I had not disappointed someone else, but myself.  If I had disappointed someone else, then they could forgive me (after discussion, discipline, figuring out a different way to handle this 3rd person, whatever), but since I disappointed myself, I couldn't forgive myself.

Cali


_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Punishment Dynamic - 4/22/2008 11:20:34 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick


OG, what I see usually happening, and why I usually argue against it, is that there is no mention whatsoever of discussion, discipline, anything to change the behavior that brings about the punishment in the first place.  It's a straight jump from wrongdoing to punishment. 


I can understand the concern you have but I think what happens is that a lot of times, those questions are just not asked, so people like myself who reply that punishments fit the crime are not aware that other folks would like more information to see what takes place behind the scenes.

The punishments which I incur are almost always due to a lack of focus.

For example, I am supposed to make coffee so it's ready for perking every morning. For over 10 years, I did this right before I go to bed. The last time I was punished was because I forgot to make the coffee. I have chronic insomnia, so a few hours of sleep at a time is usual for me. I had one of those nights where I just couldn't sleep and was up, online, waiting for the melatonin to quick in. When it did, it kicked in hard and I got up and went to bed completely flaking on making the coffee. I lost my focus and just forgot. ::shrugs:: It happens, but, that's unacceptable. The rule which has been in place for several years is that there needs to be a pot of coffee ready to perk in the morning. Period.

My punishment for forgetting to make the coffee - the consequence for the inaction - was a day off the Internet so I could reflect on what it would take for me to remember to do my job. During that day I came up with the notion that I should make the coffee right after doing the evening dishes instead of right before I went to bed so that if I was overly tired, the job was already done and Himself would have the pot ready for him in the morning. No whippings, no crying, really no need for discussion at all except to let him know the solution I had come up so that I didn't repeat the infraction. Just a day off from doing something I liked to focus on doing what he wants me to do instead. If I had not come up with a solution to be able to comply with his directive, I'm sure he would have come up with something for me. As it turns out, my solution works very well and I haven't missed making a pot of coffee since then.

I am never, ever, punished for the unknown variables. If something has not already been specified for me to do, I'm not expected to be able to read his mind, so I think, perhaps, what happens is that folks don't realize that quite often, maybe even most often, the communication has already taken place, but some cog slipped somewhere and there are still consequences for actions (and inactions) no matter how old someone may be.

Celeste







_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Punishment Dynamic - 4/22/2008 11:24:08 AM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		Well, see Celeste, I would call that discipline and not punishment.  The internet distracted you, so the internet was taken away.  It allowed you to focus and come up with a solution. 

Cali


_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Punishment Dynamic - 4/22/2008 11:38:34 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

Well, see Celeste, I would call that discipline and not punishment.  The internet distracted you, so the internet was taken away.  It allowed you to focus and come up with a solution. 

Cali



Probably just semantics, here. Punishment is one of the definitions of discipline so they can, often, be viewed as interchangeable so I can understand your use of the term. What makes it punishment to me is the fact that there was a 'loss' involved which is not one of the definitions of discipline but is one of the definitions of punishment. The loss of the use of the Internet for a day was the punishment. Focusing was the discipline (the definition which has to do with learning). In this case (as in most cases where I am punished) the punishment provided the time away necessary for the discipline to take place.


Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Punishment Dynamic - 4/22/2008 12:28:24 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		Through the years, I have become more and more of an advocate of discipline/punishment.  I never discipline without telling the submissive exactly what it is for and as noted by others on here,  I do not ask why she did it before the discipline takes place.  To do so almost invites the making of excuses.  After discipline, usually thought out by me so as to "fit the crime" so that it is more effective in driving the point home, is administered is when I will sit down and discuss what happened and why and then, direct the submissive to come up with a solution to the problem.  If she cannot come up with something that we both see as workable, then I will come up with something.  Having her come up with something to correct the problem that we both see as workable is an emphasis on the fact that she has obligations to the dynamic that are both service and non-service and that I respect her abilities as an adult to work to better our dynamic.  Her knowing that if she does not come up with something that I will serves as emphasis to the fact that I am aware of my responsibility to ensure that the dynamic continues to run smoothly.

I too disagree with the "I am an adult, not a child" statement.  Being an adult does not shield you from the consequences of your behavior outside the dynamic...why should it shield you from the consequences of your behavior within the dynamic; especially in light of the consideration that in this dynamic, more so than the dynamic you maintain with society at large, you have agreed to yield your will and submit to and obey the rules of the dynamic.

(in reply to tsatske)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Punishment Dynamic - 4/22/2008 1:29:39 PM   
MastrVran


Posts: 354
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline 		As a side thought, so many parents of today practice the opposite of anything realistic their children will be expected to do. As a child grows up in a world lacking in punishment, they fail to realize that their very behavior and actions will indeed cause them to be punished as they go through life.

Fail to show up for work? Punishment, docked pay, set down and talked to, then fired.

Disobey laws....jail....fines

No where in real life does any adult say...now Jimmy....you need to think about why what you did was not a good thing...now lets have a hug...and I just know you wont do it again.

Adults think people will be responsible for their own actions and actually expect it. Failure to do so, can, should and sooner or later will lead to definate punishments. You can call it something else, but its really a punishment.

On topic, submissives and slaves, most often need and want to feel the structure of disciplin in their lives. And without there being something that qualifies as punishment, there are no real boundaries. Just because some people will not agree with what constitutes a punishment and instead label it as something else, does not change the fact that punishments are used in all aspects of life. Wanting boundaries as defined by what is acceptable and what is not, is easily visible when you do something wrong and it leads to correction. Which then leads to punishment since they have been instructed in what was required, they were shown how to do it, and are still failing to do it correctly. Punishment can and will often make an impression on them that simply pointing out what they did wrong does not do.

Then there are those who actually need punishment for carthartic reasons. And because it makes them feel like the world is right. The reasons they need this could be many, but realistically their need isnt the important thing. What is important is the fact that it is needed by them and for them.

Of course there are also some Doms or Masters who need to punish someone to make the D/M feel like he is doing what he should be. No reason he cannot find someone who feels the way he does. Finding someone who wants structure, disciplin and punishment makes both of their lives better.

Just because someone may not see any reason for it, or know that its bad because of how it makes them feel, really has no bearing what so ever on anyone else. You do not like it? Great. For those that do, Great. This is another reason communication is such a nice thing. You find out how someone else thinks. And if they do not think as you do. Try and find someone else!

MV

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Punishment Dynamic - 4/22/2008 2:31:09 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline 		I would rather someone serve/obey me because she loves, trusts and respects me enough to stay focused.

If I have to punish her to invoke a fear of the consequences for disobedience, the relationship is of no interest to me.

If that were the case, better it end quickly.


_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to MastrVran)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Punishment Dynamic - 4/22/2008 4:20:34 PM   
MastrVran


Posts: 354
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

I would rather someone serve/obey me because she loves, trusts and respects me enough to stay focused.

If I have to punish her to invoke a fear of the consequences for disobedience, the relationship is of no interest to me.

If that were the case, better it end quickly.



And your answer is perfect. For you. I cant agree with your wants any more than I do.

For someone else, they may well want the give and take of punishment, corrections, discussions, or something else. Good for them also.

I personally always want someone who submits because they simply want to. However, at times they may need reminders, and some times, they may need more than a simple you forgot. Sometimes, they may simply want to know that they really cant control things and have to accept something they do not like. This may well help reinforce the fact that they are owned and do not simply make decisions in any way they wish.

I have always felt that in time, punishment should become rarely if ever needed as the slave learns how to please you. Fewer and fewer mistakes should arise. If they do, perhaps its because they are seeking some type of punishment? Or control, or correction.

MV 

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Punishment Dynamic - 4/22/2008 4:45:06 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
What I don't understand is why others tend to argue against that which works for two consenting adults, and then demean it by implying they are not really adults.


OG, what I see usually happening, and why I usually argue against it, is that there is no mention whatsoever of discussion, discipline, anything to change the behavior that brings about the punishment in the first place.  It's a straight jump from wrongdoing to punishment.  And to me, my two pence, YMMV, all-other-disclaimers-in-place, that is how immature parents handle their children.  They do nothing to deal with WHY there is a problem, they simply punish.  Little Susie is whining in the grocery store? Mom smacks her.  Does Mom even stop to think that Susie is tired and hungry and bored and cranky, and that if Mom had brought a box of raisins or a toy or even went to the store after naptime, then Susie wouldn't be misbehaving? No, she doesn't, she jumps straight to punishment.

Two times in my adult life I have asked for punishment to deal with guilt.  The guilt I had was that I made a promise to myself on how to deal with a certain person, and I didn't follow my own promise, and I felt incredibly guilty at my own weakness in that area.  I couldn't figure out why I couldn't let go of the guilt, and then I realized it was that I had not disappointed someone else, but myself.  If I had disappointed someone else, then they could forgive me (after discussion, discipline, figuring out a different way to handle this 3rd person, whatever), but since I disappointed myself, I couldn't forgive myself.

Cali



Hi Cali and thanks for sharing your point of view.  What you described to me seems like plain ol' dysfunction, whether the parent of a child or a dominant of a submissive.  Perhaps people should speak to functional versus dysfunctional instead of adult versus child.  By saying "I'm an adult, I don't need punishment" a person is invalidating an entire branch of this segment of society.  Perhaps that is not the intention, but it is the message.  My thought in response - "OK so you're an adult, but you're inconsiderate."    (not you, personally, just in general)

Perhaps what is really happening is people are speaking in abbreviation.  Those who say they are punished aren't describing how it works and those who say they're adults are not clarifying it's in relation to dysfunctionally parented children. 

_____________________________

Good is the enemy of great.

(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Punishment Dynamic - 4/22/2008 5:15:39 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Perhaps what is really happening is people are speaking in abbreviation.  Those who say they are punished aren't describing how it works and those who say they're adults are not clarifying it's in relation to dysfunctionally parented children. 


That's worth repeating, because I suspect you are right on both counts.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Punishment Dynamic - 4/28/2008 6:56:02 AM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		I earned a punishment, and it looked like it was going to be delayed.  I begged to get it over with quickly, even if it meant driving 2 hours just to get spanked in the back of a van and then had to drive back home.  My Master was astonished.  I knew that once the punishment was over I would no longer feel it hanging over me head.  As soon as the spanking was over He told me that everything was fine, that I didn't have to worry about it being held against me.  That was exactly what I needed.

_____________________________



(in reply to tsatske)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Punishment Dynamic - 4/28/2008 8:03:04 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Fail to show up for work? Punishment, docked pay, set down and talked to, then fired.

Disobey laws....jail....fines


Thanks for a perfect example of why punishment doesn't work, or at least why it sometimes doesn't work.  People who get fired tend to get fired over and over again,  people who go to jail tend to do so over and over again.  In that case, the punishment is ineffective.

I don't think anyone is against punishment as a concept, it is just that most of it is ineffective, poorly thought out, and improperly applied.

BitaTrouble's example is perfect, she did something, her owner applied a discipline/correction that successfully allowed her to change her behavior.

So, the point is there is nothing wrong with punishment IF it achieves the goals you seek.  Most doesn't and so I disagree with most punishment.  Let's take an extreme example.  If your submissive cheats on you and you beat her/leave her etc. what have you achieved?  Nothing.  Imagine if instead you sit down with her and find out that you don't  use her hard enough, that you don't give her what she needs and by talking to her discover that she wants the darker things you hide for fear of rejection!  Together you create a relationship better than anything you ever dreamed of!    She cheated because she needed something she wasn't getting but you secretly wanted but weren't getting either, you can't fix that by punishing her, only by being open with each other.  A child runs into the street, you take them and swat their ass hard, create a tiny bit of trauma they associate with  running into the street and they never do it again, effective punishment!

Okay, I wrote that at the end of a long rambling post so only read past this if you are bored.


Unfortunately, that isn't what we often see with punishment.  Instead we see people try and punish someone for some issue that is clearly a symptom of some deeper problem  If they are not self aware enough to see that, communication isn't going to help them because they don't know what to say.

Without that self awareness, designing a punishment that will result in the proper behavior is difficult if not impossible.  If that "proper behavior" runs counter to the core of someone, you are never going to punish them into doing it.  Also, sometimes love and acceptance is a better tool to get what you want.

BSB and I started as a fun fuck buddies although she was looking at it as that more than I.  We hit it off better than either expected but she was still much more of a bottom to me than a slave.  What pushed her past that and into a place of deeper submission wasn't punishment, but love,  understanding and acceptance.  I accept that she is a dominant to others, I understand she is scattered, I love who she is as a person.  The act that most pushed her was me allowing her to use me to fulfill a dominant fantasy of hers.   Now don't get lost on the act of what I did, focus on the concept.  I gave her what she needed to find her way to where I wanted her to go, that she meant so much to me that I would do that for her her, that I would risk myself for her and make myself vulnerable.  For some, that  act IS punishment, they need someone who can create structure and enforce it with punishment but I think that too many rely on punishment because it is easy.  BSB needs structure but more so she needs the freedom to be who she is AND the safety net that I am watching that freedom and ensuring that it has boundaries.  It is an imperfect balance and for  us, rather than sitting down like an accountant and micromanaging it, I simply ensure that in the big picture she is where she needs to be.

I have rarely punished BSB in the classic sense, I don't say that because I am some great dominant and don't need to but because I get better results by doing other things.   I get much better results simply explaining to her how her actions make me feel, how I would prefer her to act and WHY, and step back and let her work on it herself.  Part of the joys of being with someone who is self-aware and a mature adult.  That isn't to say she is perfect but that she can see where she is doing wrong.

Same goes for me, which is perhaps even more important.  I make mistakes and it isn't that I am infallible that she loves me but that I understand and deal with the fact that I am far from it.  In fact, one of the few times I really punished her (which was to be 24 hours without contact) turns out I had completely misread something and blew it.  She handled it poorly because she knew I was wrong and said some nasty things.  The fact that I was wrong and admitted it as well as apologized to her showed her how to handle things better, I didn't say "yeah but", I accepted blame directly and dealt with it.  If I had punished her for being a bitch, it would have made a bad situation worse but instead we made lemonade out of it and it brought us closer.

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 4/28/2008 8:17:09 AM >

(in reply to MastrVran)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Punishment Dynamic - 4/28/2008 8:55:34 AM   
pettingdragons


Posts: 421
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I can understand that a punishment helps you release guilt. I don't understand why a lecture isn't enough. Does this mean that you need corporal punishment? Would a writing assignment also work?
 personally, i need the absolute break down of emotions...beyond "sub space" where pain is pain and here is a good deal of it.....where the back is bloody and there is no pleasure..... writing....LOL  that would be done perfectly in 10 seconds or less..there is no "re balancing" the mind.....writting would be a minor time consuming irritation that would just make matters worse.....but then i know people who hate to write and that would be the perfect punishment for them......Master and i where just speaking of this topic....what was something awful for a previous slave is nothing to me...(wasn't here a post about kneeling in rice...my response would agree with the other poster who stated "would you like an eggroll with that" )...............it would not do a thing for me or him...besides waste time or perhaps be comical. Each punishment should be in my world something that the slave does not enjoy....cutting grass with a pair of scissors, its tedious boring and hard on all the muscles....Mental punishments are effective with me. With drawl of attention, is one of the worst.....just not talking to Master daily is stressful....to be sitting in the same room and not being able to see, touch or talk to Master....that's a rough one...i am also a touchy feely kind of slave....i will touch Master at any given opportunity....so imo....the punishment should fit the crime and the slave.....BTW Master prefers to use discipline not punishment...but when i am desperate for a "break down" he will oblige at his discretion.... just my two centspamela**Master Dragon's considered slave**"My mind is a raging torrent...
Flooded with rivulets of thought...
Cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Punishment Dynamic - 4/28/2008 12:56:33 PM   
metalmiss


Posts: 341
Joined: 5/4/2005
From: Croydon, UK
Status: offline 		With my Master and i punishment is only given/recieved if i have disappointed or upset Him in a serious way. He is consistent in His expectations and i always know where the line is. When i cross it, (not if - nobody is perfect but i have only crossed it twice in 6 months), it's dealt with & then we move on.
He doesn't try to find excuses to punish me, no setting me up to fail, something i appreciate having experience of partners who have done this in the past & have found it to be common among those who like to call themselves "Dominant."
Punishment is something that neither He nor i enjoy.. But it is essential in the running of our dynamic. For Us punishment reinforces the boundaries & keeps everything running smoothly.
Although i don't like punishment, i do see it as a positive thing in Our relationship, so i guess what it does for me is keep me in line, knowing where my boundaries are and that He would never let me even push an inch is reassuring to me & keeps me feeling secure.


< Message edited by metalmiss -- 4/28/2008 1:03:27 PM >

_____________________________

"The longing to serve, to submit, to abandon oneself sexually, emotionally, and physically makes one a slave either to a Man, a Woman or to God. Submission to that passion is divine degradation." - Dorothy C. Hayden

Owned by RavenMuse

(in reply to tsatske)
Profile   Post #: 36
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