RE: Female Supremacy - Is There an Obligation?

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ownedgirlie -> RE: Female Supremacy - Is There an Obligation? (4/26/2008 10:51:41 PM)
I like the quote...but then I like Madeleine Albright. [:)] While I don't agree with SSC, I do think people should take care of each other. But SSC should be argued in a different thread. [;)]

Aynne -> RE: Female Supremacy - Is There an Obligation? (4/27/2008 7:27:38 AM)
ownedgirlie, Thank you, I really appreciate that. Believe me donating anything you have like you did is way so appreciated, especially considering how little can mean so much in dire circumastances. Like I said, I feel like I don't have a lot of extra resources, but when I look beyond the obvious we all do. I have admired your posts for their openness, candor and thoughtfulness since I came here and I am really sure that your life experience and your way of communicating would be undeniably helpful under many circumstances to a lot of women.[:D] uote]ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie quote: ORIGINAL: Aynne ownedgirlie, That is a fantastic and very thought provoking question. Although I don't think of myself as a female supremacist ( hardly) I do think of myself as a strong woman. As a feminist, hell as a human being, I certainly do think that those of us with the means, or the time, are very much obligated to help the less fortunate and especially if the views you are espousing are that you are superior. Unless it is like you said for some, just a "kink." Especially important, again just speaking for me, is the woman to woman dynamic. I really do feel an obligation to reach out in whatever way I can to help women. Of course, being a mere worker bee and lacking a trust fund [8\|], a lot of times it may be something as simple as manning the phones one Saturday a month at our local shelter, or giving ten bucks a month to planned parenthood which I have done for many years. These small acts have much more of a far reaching effect than the obvious. You know, think globally act locally... Beats me how anyone can claim superiority and look the other way at rampant suffering and genocide of their own "superior" kind. Um yeah, that can be filed under hypocrisy I do believe. Aynne, Thank you so much for your post. I tend to think humans ought to be helping humans, but I realize that is not a universal philosophy! Kudos to you for the volunteer work you do. I have been looking into volunteering in my local community women's groups, too. I have donated a lot of things to them, but I want to donate my time and efforts as well, having gone through my own issues with being repressed and stifled. Your last sentence summed up my sentiments perfectly, but which I wasn't saying very clearly. Again, thank you for what you wrote and for what you do.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Female Supremacy - Is There an Obligation? (4/27/2008 10:49:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aynne ownedgirlie, Thank you, I really appreciate that. Believe me donating anything you have like you did is way so appreciated, especially considering how little can mean so much in dire circumastances. Like I said, I feel like I don't have a lot of extra resources, but when I look beyond the obvious we all do. In the last couple of years, I learned how little I actually need, in the way of possessions, and how much less others have and are trying to limp by with. I also learned how incredibly giving people can be, which is something I wanted to emulate. It keeps the world going 'round, doesn't it? Thank you for your other words, Aynee, what an incredibly kind thing to say! [sm=flowers.gif]

Wheldrake -> RE: Female Supremacy - Is There an Obligation? (4/27/2008 12:45:51 PM)
Female supremacy could be entirely personal, which seems to be MzMia’s attitude if I understand her correctly. She wants to be supreme in the context of her own relationships, but she doesn’t see any wider implications. Female supremacy could also be a factual belief that women are more intelligent, or make better leaders, or something. I suppose a person who believed this would want to promote female leadership in any organisation in which she (or he) was personally involved, since she’d expect the organisation to work better with women in charge, but this wouldn’t have to apply more broadly. A person taking this attitude would be interested in helping downtrodden women in a distant country only if she had a desire to make that country a better place (i.e. wanted it to enjoy the benefits of female leadership). Finally, female supremacy could be an aesthetic or moral preference. A female supremacist in this sense would just like the idea of having women in control of everything, irrespective of any practical benefits. She would presumably want to promote and empower women everywhere, to whatever extent was feasible, in order to make reality conform to her worldview. This isn’t quite the same thing as actual loyalty and sympathy towards other women, but someone who held this belief and didn’t aspire to help downtrodden women would indeed be guilty of hypocrisy or at least inconsistency (unless perhaps the women in question were downtrodden because they were being oppressed by other women who were even more supreme, rather than by men!). Personally, I think a society ruled entirely by women would be fun to visit, but I wouldn’t necessarily want to live there. It would make an interesting social experiment, though. Back in the real world, I often feel instinctively more comfortable with women in charge, but this is just a personal preference that I wouldn’t try to impose on other people or on society as a whole. I definitely wouldn’t call myself a female supremacist just because I like having women tell me what to do.

slavekal -> RE: Female Supremacy - Is There an Obligation? (4/27/2008 12:56:25 PM)
I do not owe them anything personally. I didn't do it. I do feel a need to speak out and seek justice for everyone all over the world. The bastards who did that to those women should be made to pay.

Najakcharmer -> RE: Female Supremacy - Is There an Obligation? (4/27/2008 2:43:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie Are you a female supremist? I think what I am trying to ask is, are these women (female supremists) enjoying a kink or do they actually feel women are superior? And for those who actually feel women are superior, are they compelled in any way to promote other women toward recognizing their own personal superiority, or is that something that's unimportant to them? And...if it's unimportant to them, then how important to them is it to be recognized as a superior gender, if they're not helping their own gender strengthen itself? Do they find downtrodden and repressed women to also be superior? I have a generally low opinion of supremacists of any gender, race or religion. Their positions are emotional rather than rational, or they are pseudo-rational bad science, which is even worse. In my experience a belief in supremacy does not necessarily predict any dedication to charity, even towards individuals of the gender, race or religion that is supposed to be superior. You can certainly be a supremacist (eg, a member of the Ku Klux Klan) without being involved in giving charitable assistance to disadvantaged white people. Not all supremacists are also elitists, but some are. The elitist viewpoint is that some individuals may be superior by virtue of birth, but they must still prove their fitness and strength to claim that birthright. The elitist supremacist is very unlikely to offer charitable help to anyone, believing that they are best left to be tempered by fighting their own battles and emerging either victorious or dead. Other supremacists are fanatic to the point of believing that any individual of their preferred gender, race or religion is in some sense superior to every individual who doesn't meet those criteria, even if the person in question is an uneducated crackhead alternately in jail and on welfare, and the person they are being compared to is a successful professional with multiple doctorate degrees. The irrationality of the former sort of individual stating through all three of his teeth that the latter is "still jest a nigger" should be quite self-evident.

Lashra -> RE: Female Supremacy - Is There an Obligation? (4/27/2008 3:18:00 PM)
I do not believe in the superiority of either gender. We are all humans we have our strengths and weaknesses. I did not see the program that you viewed, however I did listen a radio program about the same thing. One of the "soldiers" who admitted to raping these women stated that "As long as a woman will not fight, yes I will rape her. If she puts up a fight or is armed, I will get some of my friends to help me" In other words as long as its easy for him he will do it but if he thinks she may overpower him he is to afraid. This cowardly admission makes me believe that if those women were armed and trained to kill these bastards that these rapes would stop. Of course arming and training a woman to defend herself is a big no-no in these countries where this is happening. But I tell you what, if I had the money and the pull, I'd certainly send them some arms and get people to train them, because thats the only thing that is going to stop this shit from happening. Kill the rapist and he won't rape again. ~Lashra

RumpusParable -> RE: Female Supremacy - Is There an Obligation? (4/27/2008 3:28:13 PM)
FR Short answer: No. Long answer: I don't feel an obligation to anyone I don't know and only rarely and in special circumstances to those I do... Paying customers, having made my spouse or a friend a promise, etc. Now, do I help (or at least offer/attempt it) others that I know and don't either directly or through volunteer work or donations? Yes. But not out of any sense of obligation. Nor out of sexism... the very idea that I should side with or care more about someone because they have the same kind of genitals as me is revolting, female supremacy or no. Someone being harmed is someone being harmed, be they male, female, intersexed, any or none of the gender range, whatever. That which I expressed for myself also applies, of course, to my opinion of others: No, I don't think others have obligations to strangers based on female or male supremacy beliefs, their sex or gender, their sexual or BDSM preferences, et cetera. Also, a false or negative sense of obligation isn't a reason I'd want someone to have an interest in helping or caring about others.

thetammyjo -> RE: Female Supremacy - Is There an Obligation? (4/27/2008 3:45:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo The saddest truth is that none of us can help those women in that culture. Only they can help themselves because it is their culture that allows that behavior to happen. Only people within a system, in my opinion, have much of a change to change said system. That is never easy and it requires that some people who have power and authority feel that they should share or should change, too. An external force can enter and attempt to change the government and the legal system but unless everything else changes from the inside, it will matter very little. I can't recall which nation, but a few weeks ago I read that in some country where women have recently been recognized as voting citizen, men were going around raping, beating and threatening women on election day. Needless to say very few women managed to get exercise their legal right to vote in that election. The news had men talking openly and proudly about the number of women they threatened and harmed and they clearly said it was to prevent them from voting. It may take generations to undo such bias and hatred in a culture. Hi Tammy Jo, It was a woman from New York who went there to do the documentary, and in doing so she not only helped bring the issue to light, but brought all those women together to talk about it - something they had not done before. She helped them become a stronger force together. It took a lot of courage for someone to do that, but she did it, thus proving outsiders can indeed help them. But I wonder, as I mentioned in my OP, about our own country as well. There are women who are not strong, and my experiences with supremists have been to scoff at those women, rather than helping to raise them up and support their own cause. I don't understand that, so I've asked about it. Do you have thoughts about domestic women's issues and anything female supremists ought to be considering about them? It is true that offering someone an alternative view of things can encourage them to see those possibilities in their own lives and perhaps encourage them to make changes. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that unless the possibility of change is revealed it is almost impossible for someone to imagine a different system. Imaging though is not the same as changing things. That takes time and numbers and solid change takes generations. That is true in every situations where you or I might look and see abuse or non-consensual inequality. The where is not important beyond the fact that unless one is part of the society/culture, one can hardly work true change. I can't honestly say I understand what any kind of "supremacy". Though logically if one were to buy into that mentality wouldn't it then follow that the only thing that could happen was what the superior person wanted to happen? But perhaps I'm taking what I consider to be a foolish way of looking at the world to it's foolish extreme. Anyway, within a society things such as education, legal resources, opportunities to expand one's potential can all help to encourage change. Change however will not occur until either change is desired or those who cling to the previous regime are no longer around. This is the sort of thing we tell folks all the time on this website about their private dynamics why would it be different on a social or cultural scale?

ownedgirlie -> RE: Female Supremacy - Is There an Obligation? (4/27/2008 10:36:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer I have a generally low opinion of supremacists of any gender, race or religion. Their positions are emotional rather than rational, or they are pseudo-rational bad science, which is even worse. In my experience a belief in supremacy does not necessarily predict any dedication to charity, even towards individuals of the gender, race or religion that is supposed to be superior. You can certainly be a supremacist (eg, a member of the Ku Klux Klan) without being involved in giving charitable assistance to disadvantaged white people. Not all supremacists are also elitists, but some are. The elitist viewpoint is that some individuals may be superior by virtue of birth, but they must still prove their fitness and strength to claim that birthright. The elitist supremacist is very unlikely to offer charitable help to anyone, believing that they are best left to be tempered by fighting their own battles and emerging either victorious or dead. Other supremacists are fanatic to the point of believing that any individual of their preferred gender, race or religion is in some sense superior to every individual who doesn't meet those criteria, even if the person in question is an uneducated crackhead alternately in jail and on welfare, and the person they are being compared to is a successful professional with multiple doctorate degrees. The irrationality of the former sort of individual stating through all three of his teeth that the latter is "still jest a nigger" should be quite self-evident. Najakcharmer, thank you for sharing your opinions. I always appreciate your posts, and I am glad you responded to this. Like you, my opinion of supremacists (I finally got the word right!) of any kind is on the low side. But I had not considered the idea of elite supremacists. That makes more sense as to why these women I speak of don't seem to be lifting a finger for "their own kind." I find it interesting that non have replied to this thread. I also wonder the education level of such folks, which I had not considered prior to your post as well. Thanks again. :)

ownedgirlie -> RE: Female Supremacy - Is There an Obligation? (4/27/2008 10:37:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra I do not believe in the superiority of either gender. We are all humans we have our strengths and weaknesses. I did not see the program that you viewed, however I did listen a radio program about the same thing. One of the "soldiers" who admitted to raping these women stated that "As long as a woman will not fight, yes I will rape her. If she puts up a fight or is armed, I will get some of my friends to help me" In other words as long as its easy for him he will do it but if he thinks she may overpower him he is to afraid. This cowardly admission makes me believe that if those women were armed and trained to kill these bastards that these rapes would stop. Of course arming and training a woman to defend herself is a big no-no in these countries where this is happening. But I tell you what, if I had the money and the pull, I'd certainly send them some arms and get people to train them, because thats the only thing that is going to stop this shit from happening. Kill the rapist and he won't rape again. ~Lashra Hi Lashra, I didn't realize this was on a radio program as well. I watched the interviews in which these men - mostly soldiers put in place to protect the villages - said the same things. They also had some bogus claim that it was for the good of the country. There's some crazy shit happening out there, and it is truly appalling.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Female Supremacy - Is There an Obligation? (4/27/2008 10:40:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RumpusParable FR Short answer: No. Long answer: I don't feel an obligation to anyone I don't know and only rarely and in special circumstances to those I do... Paying customers, having made my spouse or a friend a promise, etc. Now, do I help (or at least offer/attempt it) others that I know and don't either directly or through volunteer work or donations? Yes. But not out of any sense of obligation. Nor out of sexism... the very idea that I should side with or care more about someone because they have the same kind of genitals as me is revolting, female supremacy or no. Someone being harmed is someone being harmed, be they male, female, intersexed, any or none of the gender range, whatever. That which I expressed for myself also applies, of course, to my opinion of others: No, I don't think others have obligations to strangers based on female or male supremacy beliefs, their sex or gender, their sexual or BDSM preferences, et cetera. Also, a false or negative sense of obligation isn't a reason I'd want someone to have an interest in helping or caring about others. I appreciate your reply and feel much the same. You did not say if you espouse the same views as female supremacists who believe women are the stronger gender overall, so I do not know your position on that, but I appreciate hearing your point of view on the subject; thank you.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Female Supremacy - Is There an Obligation? (4/27/2008 10:47:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo It is true that offering someone an alternative view of things can encourage them to see those possibilities in their own lives and perhaps encourage them to make changes. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that unless the possibility of change is revealed it is almost impossible for someone to imagine a different system. Imaging though is not the same as changing things. That takes time and numbers and solid change takes generations. That is true in every situations where you or I might look and see abuse or non-consensual inequality. The where is not important beyond the fact that unless one is part of the society/culture, one can hardly work true change. I agree with you here, and for this reason I do applaud those who are courageous enough to merge themselves into such cultures with the hopes of adding to change. And while they may not realize such change in their own lifetimes, one never knows the full effect of what they have started. I actually hope that in my lifetime I can have the time, finances and guts to go to such a place, and offer my efforts. quote: I can't honestly say I understand what any kind of "supremacy". Though logically if one were to buy into that mentality wouldn't it then follow that the only thing that could happen was what the superior person wanted to happen? But perhaps I'm taking what I consider to be a foolish way of looking at the world to it's foolish extreme. Very interesting point. I hadn't considered that. quote: Anyway, within a society things such as education, legal resources, opportunities to expand one's potential can all help to encourage change. Change however will not occur until either change is desired or those who cling to the previous regime are no longer around. This is the sort of thing we tell folks all the time on this website about their private dynamics why would it be different on a social or cultural scale? Often times change does not occur because people have lost hope. But whether it's in our own homes, communities, country, or globe, change will never happen if it is never attempted. Thank you for your post. It adds much food for thought.

wwwkevinww -> RE: Female Supremacy - Is There an Obligation? (4/27/2008 11:01:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie quote: ORIGINAL: sirguym The only reason this has anything to do with the female supremacist myth is that it is the other side of the coin of male supremacist myths, and religious myths. All these myths are reasons given to rationalise and justify shunning the victims of such crimes, by those who ought to know better. First, I agree that they are both myths. I do not subscribe to either point of view. But if men claim that they are "better," I would ask them what they are doing to better their gender. So if the women on this site who think they are the better gender are doing something to better their gender, I would like to know what. batshalom is right - I was watching a TV show and thinking out loud, so to speak. And 20 hours ago I started a thread to challenge the supremist women of this site to come forward and say what they are doing that is helping their gender become the superior gender they believe themselves to be. So far, no one has stepped forward. I find that interesting but hey, maybe they've all gone away for the weekend. [;)] Obviously women born in the congo are less equal than women born in the USA. The fact that life isn't equal and is unfair is a fact of life. That doesn't mean people should treat people unequally or unfairly. I think that unfortunately, the USA has gotten too liberal and women are actually getting more power than they deserve. Why the hell is a woman's word more valid than a males? Who cares what the female supreme-ists think. They are a cancer to our society (USA) as it is. Any normal person should think rape and what not is wrong. There are all sorts of inhumane things that go on not only in other countries but in our backyard. There are men who are also beaten and abused. Look at the Saturday Night comedian who was eventually killed by his wife. Any normal person would think rape and what not is wrong, almost every civilization has some issues, I think humanity as a whole is suffering and needs leadership, but then people want to fight about who should lead? Does it really matter? All sorts of problems exist, including human slave trafficking, murder, etc.... I don't think its a question of people having apathy, but many who have sympathy still realize which issue is most important? what about children starving? I don't think people are generally apathetic to others plights, but I do think its a question of priorities.

Najakcharmer -> RE: Female Supremacy - Is There an Obligation? (4/28/2008 8:49:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie But I had not considered the idea of elite supremacists. That makes more sense as to why these women I speak of don't seem to be lifting a finger for "their own kind." I find it interesting that non have replied to this thread. Same reason you're more likely to find a Ku Klux Klan member burning crosses on black people's lawns than collecting for a white charity. Most people who fly the supremacist banner are far more interested in having a target to lash out at and blame for their problems than in working to make their own situation better. It's much easier to whine and to be nasty to other people than to get off your ass and do something constructive.

youngsubgeoff -> RE: Female Supremacy - Is There an Obligation? (4/28/2008 9:04:03 AM)
I am not a supremacist, and I feel no obligation to help anyone in another country. Im sick of everyone charging off to fight for peoples freedom in other countries, when ours are disappearing by the hour. I would much rather feed a starving american child than a starving african child, just as I would rather help a woman who was raped in the US than I would a woman that was raped in congo. I think we need to fix our country first, then, mabye, we can go help others.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Female Supremacy - Is There an Obligation? (4/28/2008 9:28:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wwwkevinww I don't think its a question of people having apathy, but many who have sympathy still realize which issue is most important? what about children starving? I don't think people are generally apathetic to others plights, but I do think its a question of priorities. Hi Kevin, thanks for your post. I liked what you said about priorities, and think you have a good point. I also tend to believe as you do about any demographic of people who think they are "better" or more powerful, which is why I questioned the hypocrisy. Thanks again. :)

ownedgirlie -> RE: Female Supremacy - Is There an Obligation? (4/28/2008 9:30:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie But I had not considered the idea of elite supremacists. That makes more sense as to why these women I speak of don't seem to be lifting a finger for "their own kind." I find it interesting that non have replied to this thread. Same reason you're more likely to find a Ku Klux Klan member burning crosses on black people's lawns than collecting for a white charity. Most people who fly the supremacist banner are far more interested in having a target to lash out at and blame for their problems than in working to make their own situation better. It's much easier to whine and to be nasty to other people than to get off your ass and do something constructive. Najakcharmer, you just summed up exactly what the problem is, in one sentence. That was awesome, and I agree wholeheartedly, I just didn't see it that way at first. Thank you so much for posting.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Female Supremacy - Is There an Obligation? (4/28/2008 9:31:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: youngsubgeoff I am not a supremacist, and I feel no obligation to help anyone in another country. Im sick of everyone charging off to fight for peoples freedom in other countries, when ours are disappearing by the hour. I would much rather feed a starving american child than a starving african child, just as I would rather help a woman who was raped in the US than I would a woman that was raped in congo. I think we need to fix our country first, then, mabye, we can go help others. Hi Geoff, thanks for posting. I believe our country needs attention, too, which is why I included it in my OP. :)

amayos -> RE: Female Supremacy - Is There an Obligation? (4/28/2008 9:39:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie I am sitting here watching an HBO documentary called "Greatest Silence." It's a rather disturbing film about the use of sex crimes in the Congo, and how it has increased significantly, in volume and in savagery, since 1999. Women are not simply taken and gang raped at random, but mutilated in horrific ways afterwards. Raped women are outcast by society, abandoned by their husbands, and often left pregnant. 30% end up with HIV. And so I am wondering if those who believe in female supremacy feel they have an obligation to these women in such defenseless situations? Or even in this country, what do you do to help women to get on their feet and become strong? Do you feel you owe it to them? Do you look down on those in such situations? Why or why not? If you are not a female supremist, whether or not you subscribe to their views, do you feel that women who believe they are the stronger and powerful gender should help other women become strong? Do you feel any hipocrisy if they don't? The greatest tragedy in any society is when women are discarded and destroyed; there really is no difference between such acts and outright genocide of all humanity. The throwing away of the female is a throwing away of us all, a careless and stupid and terrible thing that steals water from our species in this desert of time. For this reason it is the duty of the female supremacist, male supremacist and every other shade of believer in between to stop such atrocious acts. Where does the obligation lie? In us all, regardless of our take on the sexes. Even if you believe all women should be slaves, it is certainly not the same as supporting the senseless and often mortal horrors visited upon women—or men—in third-world countries. The greed and starvation that feeds this cycle—a cycle of which we are all inevitably a part—must be brought down.

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