RE: tops

RE: tops (Full Version)

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kiwisub12 -> RE: tops (4/26/2008 7:36:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ELUSIVE1 quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly i agree with Camille. He has no issue whatsoever with my input. In fact he demands it. I really wasn't referring to the open communication between partners-I know that is important, this was more on target with the tops that accuse subs/masochists/bottoms of topping from the bottom But, what exactly do you mean by that? Give examples for the concrete minded of us please [:)]

Leatherist -> RE: tops (4/26/2008 8:18:30 AM)
Giving me inout isn't topping from the bottom. Telling me what to do or think IS.

ownedgirlie -> RE: tops (4/26/2008 8:25:29 AM)
~ Fast Reply ~ I tend to equate topping from the bottom as being allowed to manipulate. It's just a longer way of saying the same thing.

ResidentSadist -> RE: tops (4/26/2008 9:07:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ELUSIVE1 'There is No such thing as topping from the bottom, if I need to tell you what to do you are NO LONGER my TOP...' I think that is a cute bit of philosophy you posted and it speaks to the essence of who’s really in power. It also seems a little more polite than just saying “you’re my bitch now”. ------------------------------ -=BDSM Fable about Topping & Bottoming=- The story takes place in a public dungeon and a "do me" sub has just petitioned a sadistic top to scene with. Knowing that this sub trys to top from the bottom, the Top accepts anyway and says, "now I want you to open my gear bag and pick out all the things you would like me to use on you and set them on this bench." Moments later the bottoms says, "ok, I've done what you asked. All the things I want you to use on me are on this bench". The Top replies, "now leave that crap you like on the bench and grab my what's left in my bag so we can go scene... I'm a sadist you know."

Amadio -> RE: tops (4/26/2008 10:34:24 AM)
There is no such thing as Domination from a submissive roll, but where impact and sensation are concern you can most certainly have a bottom, train her own Top. Much like a seasoned bottom and their new inexperienced lover.

graceadieu -> RE: tops (4/26/2008 10:50:21 AM)
Blah, blah blah. Not everyone has the same kinks or relationships as you or your friend do - what room do they have to judge? It's not my thing, but I could totally see a top and bottom getting off on a power struggle. Heck, I bet you could build a whole scene around that.

RumpusParable -> RE: tops (4/26/2008 11:13:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ELUSIVE1 'There is No such thing as topping from the bottom, if I need to tell you what to do you are NO LONGER my TOP...' the words above came from a very well respected friend that gives presentations...I totally agree with her words, what do you think? I have to absolutely disagree in two ways: 1) That their is no such thing as topping from the bottom, and 2) the directly implication that a top is a mindreader and if they'r not that they're not a good/safe top. To the first: There's a huge difference between mutual input, helpful direction, feedback, etc and dictating every nuance of a scene or manipulating your nominal-top to do what you want them to. The last two are very real occurances. To the second: Simply, a top isn't a mindreader. They can know their bottom well, be excellent at reading body language and knowing how to use their tools and so on but that doesn't stop them from being human. Sometimes you need, especially with a new bottom, that clear and stated input and feedback from them.

peppermint -> RE: tops (4/26/2008 11:19:52 AM)
quote: 'There is No such thing as topping from the bottom, if I need to tell you what to do you are NO LONGER my TOP...' Hold on there. The OP began by talking of Tops...and all of a sudden the words submissive and dominant have been added....which was not part of the original post. I'll agree with the original quote....as written. I disagree totally if we're discussing situations involving a submissive or a dominant. There ARE masochistic dominants. These masochistic dominants enjoy being the bottom but they do not give up authority to the submissive. Dominant masochists need to top from the bottom to keep the sub/dom dynamic working as it should.

adoracat -> RE: tops (4/26/2008 11:19:57 AM)
i dont top....i tell Daddy what i want/need, and then he decides what he wishes to do to/for me. if i cant say what i need, how will i get those needs met? and we've discussed long and hard the differences between want and need, too. kitten

sambamanslilgirl -> RE: tops (4/26/2008 11:25:52 AM)
does it matter what i think? if you believe that, cool with me however i don't. being His submissive doesn't mean i spend my days in deep thought wondering what Daddy's thinking/planning/etc. if i want something, i tell Him - simple as that. i don't wait for Him to ask if i need anything.

CreativeDominant -> RE: tops (4/26/2008 11:59:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RavenMuse Input from My girl is welcomed and even sometimes required, that isn't 'Topping from the bottom' but simple provision of information. Someone trying to manipulate the situation to their own ends, rather than giving clear info for Me to make My decision upon isn't going to get very far and is what I consider an attempt to 'Top from the bottom'. I agree, Raven. Seems to me that in a scene where two people are playing that input from the one on the receiving end...the bottom...can be very helpful, especially in the case of people new to each other or in the case of the one on the giving end...the top...being inexperienced with the equipment he is using. But that is just clear communication between two people involved in a scene. But...there can come a time when the bottom thinks, because he/she has more experience (and if you have 6 years to the top's 5, you have more experience...but he really isn't lacking, is he?), that they should direct the scene. When it is just top/bottom play in which the receiver requested the top to do something specific for them, they have that right...after all, they requested the scene knowing what they want/need. But a scene in which a top asked a bottom to play in a specific manner and the bottom agreed? Shouldn't this scene...requested by the top and agreed to by the bottom...be run by the top in the same manner as the specific scene by the bottom? While there is room for communication, there is not room for the bottom telling the top how to do things...after all, this is HIS scene and she agreed to play...not control. For this top to note that the bottom is trying to "top from the bottom" is not a matter of him being selfish and arrogant, it is a matter of her being that way. In the case of dominants and submissives...a much grayer area. I believe much the same as Raven and others have noted; it depends on intent. If you have agreed to submit to this person, for purposes of play (or more...though we are not talking about D/s outside of play right now), then the play is done...or should be...with the intent to submit, which is a yielding of your will to that of the dominant. If your intent is to be helpful, then it is communication. If it is to manipulate things to your own endgoal of satisfaction of your masochism and the part of your submission that is satisfied by play and in disregard of his needs as the dominant in charge of this scene and his needs as a sadist, whether done covertly or more obviously, then it is an attempt to "top from the bottom". If it is done because you have so much more experience (and again, 6 years is more than 5...as an e.g....but not much) than the one you are playing with and therefore, assume you know better and have the right to tell him HOW to do it instead of communicating to him before the scene...and during... clear information so that he can still be the one making the decision as to whether to abide by it or not, then it is "topping from the bottom". And his decision not to go along with everything the submissive is telling him doesn't make him a bad player or a bad dominant or someone who has too big an ego to listen...it makes him someone that realizes that in this situation, he has that right as the dominant. Yes, some dominants and some tops overuse the phrase or use it wrongly. That doesn't mean it does not exist.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: tops (4/26/2008 12:28:38 PM)
And let's not forget all the great situations in which the top ORDERs the bottom to do things to them, to beat them, to play with them. Or when a bottom teaches a top how to do something as she is bottoming to that thing. Everyone forgets those when talking about topping from the bottom.

ProfJoe -> RE: tops (4/26/2008 6:09:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: adoracat i dont top....i tell Daddy what i want/need, and then he decides what he wishes to do to/for me. if i cant say what i need, how will i get those needs met? and we've discussed long and hard the differences between want and need, too. kitten This is the point, I think. My girl can't "top" me unless I've already lost control. And if I allow the control to be "manipulated" away from me, I've lost not only control but respect. This isn't the same thing at all as the examples Lucky Albatross gives -- I can instruct her to do something from a top position and, at a moment's whim, stop it. I'm in control even if she has the whip. On the other hand, I can ask for -- or she can offer -- all sorts of input. None of it is "topping" because I reserve the right to accept it or not. It's only topping from the bottom if my control is a "role" and her manipulation is the real control in the dynamic. In the best of such a phony world, the top/dom/"master" never realizes he's being had, I suppose. Prof Joe

DiurnalVampire -> RE: tops (4/26/2008 6:17:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ELUSIVE1 'There is No such thing as topping from the bottom, if I need to tell you what to do you are NO LONGER my TOP...' I think if some of the boys and girls hadn't told me what to do when I was starting out, Id never have become the Domme I am today. The difference is, topping from the bottom isnt telling someone what to do, it is telling them what you want them to do. Slight difference. If I am not sure how to do someothing and the sub/bottom partner I am with has experience, they would be expected to tell me what to do, so we ca both enjoy it. Topping from the bottom, as I have always seen it, is when the sub/bottom partner tells the Top/Dom what to do for them, regardless of what the Top/Dom might have had planned, or even have been in the middle of. It is one thing to assist and teach, it is quite another to try and divert control and take over the situation. I would change it slightly. There is no such thing from topping from the bottom. If you ALLOW me to tell you what to do without it being requested, then you are no longer my top. My 2 cents DV

DesFIP -> RE: tops (4/26/2008 7:40:19 PM)
The point is, I cannot coerce him into doing, or not doing, what it is he wants. I can talk to him and explain my reasons. If they make sense he'll take it into account. But if it's just a matter of wishes, then unless he feels like indulging me I can't compel him to do what I want. Sometimes I get what I ask for, sometimes I wish I hadn't asked for it, and sometimes all I get is a "nope". Me telling him what I want doesn't mean I will get it. He's free to refuse and do something else. Obviously health and safety issues don't apply here.

JavamanTN -> RE: tops (4/28/2008 1:34:11 AM)
First to the OP. I disagree with your friend, even as it is written. I certainly see her point and can see a lot of situations where it may hold true, but I have also been in plenty of situations where it would not have held true. In the case of the top not having enough direction to keep a scene going then it the rule would hold. When you are playing on the edge of what the bottom can take and/or developing/learning new skills that involve very intense play it you can slap in barriers that neither of you anticipated. In these situations clear direct communication from the bottom is sometimes necessary to avoid spoiling the scene. I was playing with a long time play partner a few years ago when this sort of situation arose. She and I usually had very intense play with an emphasis on pain play and fear. We had been friends and play partners for years and at this point had well established rules for acceptable play. During this scene how ever I decided to introduce her to flesh pulling, not with hooks mind you but with my hands. Her reaction was incredible! I moved from her latts to her pects. She really leg go from this kind of pain-pleasure, screaming and nearly having a body orgasm at the same time. I dug my fingers into the space under the pects and pulled up, picking her up to her tip toes a good portion of her body weight resting on my eight finger tips that where now buried under her pects.... at first it was ecstasy then she gasped and screamed out..... not my right shoulder.... can't do that on that side!... I release pressure on that side and continued torment the left. Turns out her right shoulder was very aggravated from topping her self a few nights earlier and an old sports injury. It was either issue the statement that I couldn't do that there, or use a safe word. The stop would have stopped the scene breaking rhythm and lowering the energy level, and the slow word would have probably had the same effect if we slowed long enough to talk about the specifics of why it happened. It was better that she did that. But I was defiantly still leading the scene, I just had to be informed that we had hit a limit As for the rest of the topping from the bottom discussion my two cents follows. If you and your partner(s) don't play with resistance this may not apply to you. One of the things you(top and bottom) should negotiate when your are planning a scene is the level of control. This can even be important even in established D/s relationships where a scene can be a great place for a slave to let his/her hair down so to speak. When I play with the woman I mentioned above she and I often have resistance scenes and it's important for both of us to establish if whether it is an obedient bottom scene or a resisting bottoms scene. Sometimes our scenes take on a direction of their own and the type changes half way through depending on our moods, we know each other well and we roll with it. When we do resistance scenes at a dungeon, it shocks a lot of people. At least in my scene [she now lives in FL :-( ] resistance play is pretty rare. Back to the discussion, during resistance scenes it wouldn't be considered "topping from the bottom" for her to yell obscenities at my, try to kick me in the face, throw punches at me, bite me, ask me if that's the best I've got when I'm lashing her with a flogger, or yell commands (that will either be ignored or be used as provocation for more punnishment). This is because we've agreed on that level of control (or lack of) for the scene. As another example a local D/s couple I know also does resistance scenes, where the slave is allowed to kick and punch back, and basically fight as much as she wants. It's a great time for her to release aggression that she is not otherwise allowed an outlet for. I had a similar arrangement with my former boy. It worked. ~Daniel

SirJohnMandevill -> RE: tops (4/28/2008 5:28:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ELUSIVE1 'There is No such thing as topping from the bottom, if I need to tell you what to do you are NO LONGER my TOP...' the words above came from a very well respected friend that gives presentations...I totally agree with her words, what do you think? I understand why she'd say that, but in the relationship my submissive and I have, such communication is vital because we're still a new couple. I often ask for feedback from her on the things that I'm doing. She is free to make suggestions during play, and I don't consider it topping from the bottom. I hope as we become closer and are together more often, the need for suggestions will decrease simply because we'll know each other's needs so very, very well. Les (Purveyor of Fine, Handcrafted Kink).

FlamingRedhead -> RE: tops (4/28/2008 9:05:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ELUSIVE1 'There is No such thing as topping from the bottom, if I need to tell you what to do you are NO LONGER my TOP...' I totally disagree with this statement. For one thing, there is too such a thing as "topping from the bottom," although it's not necessarily as evil as people like to make it sound. It occurs when, as in previous examples, a person directs the scene from the role of a bottom. It could be that this person is normally a top but is also a masochist. It could be an experienced bottom teaching an inexperienced top. This is different than a bottom "running the scene." If a bottom approaches a top to request a specific scene, the top has the choice to accept or refuse. If accepted, the top should stick to what was discussed and not deviate from the plan. However, if a top approaches a bottom to request a scene, the same rules should apply. Once a scene has been negotiated, the bottom should not try to alter it in any way. This doesn't mean that a safeword can't be used at any time in the case that a scene goes awry. I prefer to call a spade a spade, and being manipulative is just....being manipulative. I have been accused of "topping from the bottom," although I've never once tried to direct a scene in which I was the bottom. We learn as children to manipulate our parents to get what we want because direct communication doesn't ever seem to work (the answer was always no). It takes time for this behavior to be unlearned and establish open and direct communication. It has nothing to do with "topping," in my opinion.

HerLord -> RE: tops (4/28/2008 9:09:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist -=BDSM Fable about Topping & Bottoming=- The story takes place in a public dungeon and a "do me" sub has just petitioned a sadistic top to scene with. Knowing that this sub trys to top from the bottom, the Top accepts anyway and says, "now I want you to open my gear bag and pick out all the things you would like me to use on you and set them on this bench." Moments later the bottoms says, "ok, I've done what you asked. All the things I want you to use on me are on this bench". The Top replies, "now leave that crap you like on the bench and grab my what's left in my bag so we can go scene... I'm a sadist you know." I love this... and have used it in my past... That was a brilliant nite.

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