Abuse of RIPA and The Patriot Act

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Abuse of RIPA and The Patriot Act - 4/27/2008 7:23:22 AM

Politesub53

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While talking about surveillance on another thread, the abuse of these two anti-Terrorist acts sprung to mind. For those who don`t know RIPA stands for The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act. In effect the UK equivelant of The Patriot Act.

The hidden fact abut RIPA is it can also be used to fight crime, as seen from the text below.

< Intrusive surveillance
Intrusive surveillance involves the presence of an individual on private residential premises or in a private vehicle. It also includes any surveillance carried out by means of a device.
Due to its invasiveness, this type of surveillance is only used to catch offenders suspected of serious crimes. Only the most senior authorising officer in relevant public authorities can approve intrusive surveillance. >

Now here is my beef, it clearly states serious crime, so far so good. Anything that fights major drug dealling or armed robbery is fine by me. Now for the down side, among cases this act has been used for include local councils using it to.

Spy on a family to see if they had the right to send their child to a certain school ( IE lived in the catchment area )

Spy on someone suspected of using a disabled parking bay.

Spy on people dropping litter ( bad form but hardly serious crime )

When RIPA was first passed in 2000, only 9 agencies, such as police and security, were allowed to use it. Now there are some 700 agencies using it, including just under 500 local councils.

What i would like to see done, is each council/agency to be held responsible for abuse of the act. As well as the act amended to carry out only its intended purpose.

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RE: Abuse of RIPA and The Patriot Act - 4/27/2008 7:32:46 AM

FullCircle

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That would be nice they should also release information as to how it's being used i.e. types of crime as a percentage that have relied on the act. I never really understood why so many UK agencies needed these powers. They are just going after the easy targets to help their crime figures rather than going after complex, hard to prosecute cases and serious organised crime.

This is what happens when a government holds such a substantial majority; this is why we need an elected second house of some kind rather than cronies. This is why the parliament act is being misused, although I wouldn’t have said that about the hunting ban. In that case I would have said the House of Lords should not be trying to undermine government but I’m a hypocrite like that.

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RE: Abuse of RIPA and The Patriot Act - 4/27/2008 8:14:41 AM

Real_Trouble

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The problem with any law enforcement powers being granted to a government is that they will be abused. This is human nature; until we find a way to have governments that are composed of something other than people, one should always plan for this.

I am only surprised it has not been abused more than it already has. I consider things like the school spying to be an excellent example of why RIPA should either be revoked or very heavily modified to pertain only to cases regarding terrorism. There should also be intensely harsh criminal penalties for misusing it, and if they want to be serious about it, have those cases tried by an international court so that the same people using the powers are not the ones judging if the use was fair.

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RE: Abuse of RIPA and The Patriot Act - 4/27/2008 8:54:57 AM

pahunkboy

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the thing is- an individual cant possibly follow ALL international, federal, state, county, township, city laws. regulation and rules.

OH- the big thing is that we now have "secret laws" so- the ignorance is no excuse lecture by a judge is now a mute point.

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RE: Abuse of RIPA and The Patriot Act - 4/27/2008 9:01:44 AM

subfever

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And here I thought you'd be talking about that hottie, Kelly Ripa...

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RE: Abuse of RIPA and The Patriot Act - 4/27/2008 10:26:50 AM

RealityLicks

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While I agree that using these powers for trivial matters like littering seems ridiculous I do think that there are sometimes legitimate grounds for a local authority to use them. Also, these powers are far more likely to be used to enforce business regulations than anything else. Like the sale of tobacco, alcohol or fireworks to minors; trading standards (construction); food hygiene in restaurants and so on.

I'm not saying a dodgy kebab is on a par with a terrorist bomb but I am glad that someone is investigating matters of public health and safety. I suppose I'm less impressed by the use of these powers to catch an individual cheating their benefits than I would be if they caught a major identity fraudster.

It's small consolation that without any infringement there won't be any evidence - no-one wants furtive photos taken while going about their daily routine - what is a concern, in the cases involving individuals however, is that there would appear to be less oversight on the actions of council spooks than there is on the police, which plainly, could lead to serious invasions of privacy. That aspect of it needs serious thought.

There's a brief survey here:

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1047176_how_councils_use_surveillance

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RE: Abuse of RIPA and The Patriot Act - 4/27/2008 5:32:26 PM

wulfgarw

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble

The problem with any law enforcement powers being granted to a government is that they will be abused. This is human nature; until we find a way to have governments that are composed of something other than people, one should always plan for this.

I am only surprised it has not been abused more than it already has.

To quote the actor "People should not be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their People". The sole reason for both the Patriot Act and RIPA is not security, it's fear. Both pieces of legislation are designed to make people afraid of the gov't by creating something that allows them to do pretty much whatever the H, E, double hockey sticks they want. In the end, the gov't gets what they want, a peasantry class of sheeple to dominate, all the power they can handle. and anyone who tries to stand for themselves either thrown in prison or quietly 'disappeared'.

Edited for grammar.

< Message edited by wulfgarw -- 4/27/2008 5:33:45 PM >

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RE: Abuse of RIPA and The Patriot Act - 4/27/2008 9:06:34 PM

Vendaval

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Sorry to hear about this situation, Politesub53. The number of agencies with access to this information sounds very excessive.

(spelling edit)

< Message edited by Vendaval -- 4/27/2008 9:07:57 PM >

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RE: Abuse of RIPA and The Patriot Act - 4/28/2008 2:37:38 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Sorry to hear about this situation, Politesub53. The number of agencies with access to this information sounds very excessive.

(spelling edit)

Thank you Ma`am. To be honest the problem i see is not so much the number of agencies involved, the majority are local councils. The real problem is that the checks and balances are not being applied, leading to an abuse of power.

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RE: Abuse of RIPA and The Patriot Act - 4/28/2008 5:14:22 AM

mastervalentine

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"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny. " ~Thomas Jefferson

It would be so much easier if everything the Governments did were done in public, that each and every individual could weigh every judgement rendered. The most disturbing thing about American government in my opinion is the concept of a closed session of congress. The day the American public is no longer publicly represented is the day when tyranny in the shadow of secrecy reigns supreme.

That and it would be so much harder to have a wasteful war authorized if the whole of the American people were given such power.

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." ~Thomas Jefferson

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RE: Abuse of RIPA and The Patriot Act - 4/28/2008 9:50:49 AM

mhawk

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well truthfully, i once worked for a credit card company,worst job i've ever had in all honesty.my point? my point is this. i personally find the Patriot Act here intrusive.it has good points and all but even in the world of taking apps for credit cards for new applicants(they were calling us thank goodness), we had to read through the entire Patriot Act, as i said i think it has it's strong points but it's also very intrusive.

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