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RE: Ever - 10/15/2005 9:06:55 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

All you have to do is tell them what your psychic ability is, then prove it. Since what you're saying amounts to the same thing as looking at baseball cards to guess what someones batting average may be next year, maybe you should send your friend.


Actually, it does not equate with baseball cards in the slightest, unless that's what you're into. For me it is a deep physical and emotional link with the greater powers that exist in this universe. It doesn't necessarily tell me the future, it just helps me examine the most likely route that my future will take if things keep going the way they are. Of course, I always take what the cards tell me with a grain of salt and common sense. If I pull death, it doesn't mean I'm going to die anytime soon. If I pull the devil, a large, horned, red, cloven-footed beast most likely won't jump up behind me. I think the more you study the Tarot, as well as other methods of divination, the more you will understand. They shouldn't be taken literally and most certainly shouldn't be a sole basis for someone's judgements. They are merely a spiritual aide, if you will, to better your life and your path through it. Most of the misconstrued notions that people foster about the Tarot stem from a slightly skewed view fostered by the Catholic church in the early 1400's. The pope went so far as to call them "the calling cards of the devil". Anyway, I surely won't tell you that your opinion is wrong, but I believe we all expect the same of you. You choose not to believe it. We do. And we should all respect that.

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to SadistDave)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Ever - 10/15/2005 9:09:01 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

Okay, anyone who seriously believes in this stuff, raise your hand...

Theres a guy named James Randi that will give you 1 million dollars to prove you can tell peoples futures...

Any of you "psychics" who want to take the challenge can find out the details here.

I for one am looking forward to hearing how you plan to spend your newly aquired wealth... ROFLMAO!
-SD-




Like someone else said, not telling the future. Focusing. Similar to meditation or prayer. A way to focus my mind and the minds of others on problems and give them ideas of how they should best proceed.

I'm not psychic. I have no psychic gifts at all and don't know where i stand on them. I -am- a witch. As such, reading tarot is part of my worship practice. It's a way for me to connect with the divine and ask for divine help in my life.

So in that sense, I believe in it very much. It is an act of worship, and as such I know that I am able to recieve help from the divine.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to SadistDave)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Ever - 10/15/2005 9:50:08 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

I'm not psychic. I have no psychic gifts at all and don't know where i stand on them. I -am- a witch. As such, reading tarot is part of my worship practice. It's a way for me to connect with the divine and ask for divine help in my life.


Here here! I agree wholeheartedly, as a witch and a firm believer in the divine myself.

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Ever - 10/15/2005 11:53:49 PM   
MasterBenedict


Posts: 309
Status: offline 		Yup!!
But which 'cards' are U referring to?
I've got 2 separate decks-- the Ryder waite
and (my ABSOLUTE favorite) the Viconti-Sforza duplicate that SOMEbody gave me!
So, which ones did U mean?

_____________________________

If you can LAUGH at it you can live WITH it!

(in reply to angelic)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Ever - 10/16/2005 4:19:28 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I have to wonder about that "challenge," because it's clear from the website that most preliminary applicants have refused to accept the test protocols that the "James Randi Educational Foundation" insisted on. That makes me doubt that they would ever accept a test allowing the applicant a real chance of success. Of course, I'd have to know the specifics of each case to be able to judge that question. But I'm not at all convinced that JREF administers this "challenge" fairly.

Take dowsing, which the website lists as the first example of a paranormal phenomenon. I've SEEN dowsers. I can't explain how they do it, but they do it, and corporations spend good money for their services. Corporations are not in business to waste money on hucksters. How can a dowser ever prove that he's relying on a skill, not luck or foreknowledge? I don't believe there is such a thing as a fair test for dowsing. But that doesn't mean you can just assume that all dowsers are bullshit-artists.

(in reply to SadistDave)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Ever - 10/16/2005 6:36:11 AM   
smilezz


Posts: 2156
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline 		Several years ago The Man and i...two of my dearest friends C & P went to our annual trip to Mardi Gras. We happened to be walking around mid morning and walked by the house of Laveau. I am not into any of the reading stuff...horoscope...etc. P had said that she wanted to go in and wanted me to be read...i chuckled of course and said: 'oh what the hell'.

There are a few women who do readings i found out....but what i found out that day changed more than a few thoughts i had. I can not go into it, for anyone that knows the house of Laveau and the ancestory knows what i mean. *grinz*
I am still not going to say that i am a believer of all this stuff, but i will say that i had a very pleasant time that day with a wonderfull descendant of the Laveau family.


Happy Sunday!

~smilezz~

(edited to add that lack of caffeine this time of morning has spelling errors..*laughs*)

< Message edited by smilezz -- 10/16/2005 6:47:58 AM >

_____________________________

=It's not my fault that when I was a baby I was dropped in a box of Glitter & I have been shinin' ever since=

�*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,-:* �

(in reply to angelic)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Ever - 10/16/2005 11:56:46 AM   
SadistDave


Posts: 801
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I have to wonder about that "challenge," because it's clear from the website that most preliminary applicants have refused to accept the test protocols that the "James Randi Educational Foundation" insisted on. That makes me doubt that they would ever accept a test allowing the applicant a real chance of success. Of course, I'd have to know the specifics of each case to be able to judge that question. But I'm not at all convinced that JREF administers this "challenge" fairly.


You're right! It's just not fair that the applicants can make their claims to JREF, then help design their own test to prove those claims. That hardly seems fair at all.

All you have to do is what you say you can do. Under the conditions you set yourself. At a site you choose. You can even use your own equipment.

This is from the JREF FAQ page.
quote:

Your claim casts you in the role of the defendant, and the only thing the JREF asks of you in defending your claim, is to demonstrate it. No theories, no stories, no anecdotal evidence, no photographs, no tape recordings; just a simple demonstration. Nothing more is required. The Challenge rules may seem complicated upon first glance, but they are not. You have a paranormal claim? Great! Demonstrate it successfully, and the Million Dollar Prize is yours. It's really that simple.


What could possibly be more fair than that?
-SD-




(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Ever - 10/16/2005 12:15:43 PM   
pinkpleasures


Posts: 1114
Status: offline 		My girlfriend and her mom read my cards as often as possible; it is always a spiritual experience....but i rarely get any answers or directions from the reading. i cannot put into words how it feels; i am transported to someplace very calm and lovely.

pinkpleasures

_____________________________



(in reply to SadistDave)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Ever - 10/16/2005 1:02:35 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		That's not what the site says. In fact, the site says the opposite: most applicants have refused to take a preliminary test because they have not accepted JREF's test protocols. (Besides, it can't be true, because if what you're saying were really all that's required, any number of dowsers would have passed the test by now.)

As I said, without knowing the specifics of any of these cases, I can't really judge whether these protocols are fair or not. But that doesn't sound like a site that's truly interested in testing paranormal phenomena. It sounds like a site that's interested in debunking them.

(Anyway, I wouldn't even use the word "paranormal." I would simply say "unexplained.")

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

All you have to do is what you say you can do. Under the conditions you set yourself. At a site you choose. You can even use your own equipment.


(in reply to SadistDave)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Ever - 10/16/2005 1:54:49 PM   
SadistDave


Posts: 801
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Actually that IS what the site says. I cut and pasted it directly from the JREF FAQ page. The FAQ page also mentions that there are usually between 40-60 applicants at any given time. Most drop out because they cannot properly fill out the application forms...

In answer to your question on the application process, I've cut this directly from the same page.

quote:

Well, the prize is for a million dollars, after all.

A lot of it has to do with the nature of previous applicants. The JREF, through much experience, has realized that most of the people who apply are either under the mistaken impression that they actually have a paranormal power, or similarly deluded into believing that they can pull a fast one on the JREF and thus win the prize money. While you may be neither mistaken nor a cheater, the JREF will always assume that you are one or the other. Most applicants may feel that this is hardly fair, but that's how it is, and you need to prepare yourself for that reaction.

As Randi states, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."


Interestingly enough, dowsing is specifically mentioned as an example on the FAQ page...

quote:

The Base Line Test may or may not be required, depending on the nature of your claim.

If, for example, your claim is that you can dowse for water in covered wooden buckets, a brief Base Line Test would be conducted as follows, prior to the actual preliminary test:

Several buckets will have water in them, and several others will not. No covers are placed upon the buckets. You are then asked to dowse for water. This gives you the opportunity to be sure that your dowsing gear is not malfunctioning, as well as insuring that the test area is free of all corrupting influences. Once you have demonstrated to yourself and to the observers that everything is working properly, the preliminary test may begin.

Obviously, if you are unable to successfully demonstrate that you can dowse for water when you are fully aware of its location, this demonstrates that you do not possess the claimed ability, and the test is then cancelled.

The Base Line Test, should it be required, may be conducted at the preliminary test site just prior to the testing, or in advance of the preliminary test at an agreed upon site.


And yet since no dowsers can get past finding water in an open bucket, then of course the problem must be JREFs test, right?

How is asking someone to dowse for water in an open bucket, with their own equipment, at a location they choose, and with the dowser being able to agree that there are no "corrupting influences" in any way unfair?

-SD-

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Ever - 10/16/2005 5:22:51 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Because it assumes that dowsing works in a certain specific way, and since dowsing is by definition unexplained, such assumptions are wholly unwarranted. I mean, really, what's this nonsense about the dowsing gear malfunctioning? If no one knows how dowsing gear works, how can anyone test whether the gear is malfunctioning?

I can see that we're not going to agree about this. I personally don't think it's possible for a human being to predict the future, and I'm profoundly skeptical of most so-called paranormal abilities. But that doesn't mean I put much stock in the JREF challenge. It's a stunt to make dowsers and psychics look like frauds.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 10/16/2005 5:23:35 PM >

(in reply to SadistDave)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Ever - 10/16/2005 10:55:02 PM   
gypsysoul


Posts: 70
Joined: 7/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

thank you for your response. i am having mine read for the first time tonight and i'm a bit nervous about it. If she shows up in a 'gypsy' costume, i'm outta there.


LOL, what exactly is a gypsy costume?


(in reply to angelic)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Ever - 10/16/2005 11:41:23 PM   
gypsysoul


Posts: 70
Joined: 7/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic


quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

Okay, anyone who seriously believes in this stuff, raise your hand...

Theres a guy named James Randi that will give you 1 million dollars to prove you can tell peoples futures...

Any of you "psychics" who want to take the challenge can find out the details here.

I for one am looking forward to hearing how you plan to spend your newly aquired wealth... ROFLMAO!
-SD-




Like someone else said, not telling the future. Focusing. Similar to meditation or prayer. A way to focus my mind and the minds of others on problems and give them ideas of how they should best proceed.

I'm not psychic. I have no psychic gifts at all and don't know where i stand on them. I -am- a witch. As such, reading tarot is part of my worship practice. It's a way for me to connect with the divine and ask for divine help in my life.

So in that sense, I believe in it very much. It is an act of worship, and as such I know that I am able to recieve help from the divine.


My grandmother read cards. Her English was terrible, and she probably couldn't distinguish between the Major Arcana and the picture cards in a Bicycle deck (no disrespect intended, Mariushka). Ah, but playing cards were probably derived from the tarot, and gambling on playing cards...I'm not getting into that here.

Different people will use the cards differently. For perverseangelic, they are a part of her spiritual practices. For some of my gypsy ancestors and contemporary relatives, the cards may have been or are merely a source of income, whether in the harmless sense of charging for readings at a carnival, or conning someone out of their life savings.

Oddly enough, the bible and other Christian religious icons are similarly used to attain different ends. Some people study the bible to use it as a moral compass, while others use scripture to con people out of money. Some would say that all people who thump bibles are out to scam people out of money.

People in every walk of life run scams; google "Enron" to see an example.

Perhaps "fortunetellers" do not play the winning lottery numbers because they can "see" the havoc that monetary wealth would wreak on the lives of their families.

My grandmother probably never turned down money for reading cards. She "magically" communicated with her neighbors in her multilingual neighborhoods. She probably read people, and used cards as a prop to offer them solace.


(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Ever - 10/17/2005 12:50:07 AM   
SadistDave


Posts: 801
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Yeah, you're right, I doubt we're going to agree on this, LOL. Thats okay though. Whats the point of having an open forum if everyone agrees on everything?

Some advice for the OP: Educate yourself in the practice and history of mysticism in general. Then educate yourself in con techniques like cold reading and hot reading. Learn about Barnum statements and watch a few psychics work before you waste your money. If you still decide to have a reading done, video tape it, so you can look at it with a more critical eye afterwards.

Look, I'm a pagan. Been one for 22 years. That doesn't mean I've got to buy all the hogwash that goes with having a belief. There are things I do as part of my faith that are relevant to my faith. None of those things include running con games like divination on impressionable people, and claiming it's okay, because it's part of my religion.

Incidentally, it's been several days since angelic was going to have her cards read. I'm curious about the outcome. Was it everything you hoped it would be?

-SD-

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Ever - 10/20/2005 12:11:36 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		To help clear things up on the James Randi issue, here is a direct quote from his book, Flim Flam! Psychics, ESP, Unicorns and other Delusions, Prometheus Books © 1982, which resides forlornly in my library at home. It's interesting to hear his opinions, abrasive as they are, and though I don't agree with him, I've read it cover to cover.

"It was fourteen years ago, during a heated discussion with a member of the parapsychology elite, that I was challenged to 'put my money where my mouth is,' and I've done just that. I am always in possession of a check in the amount of $10,000, payable to any person or group that can perform one paranormal feat of any kind under the proper observing conditions. Not one nickel has ever been forfeited; my money has never been safer, though many have tried to collect the prize. To date, more than six hundred people have offered to submit to tests, and only fifty-five have gotten by the preliminaries." (Chapter 1, page 3)

He shows an obvious unwillingness to believe anything out of the ordinary, though he does claim he once found something inexplicable in normal terms later in the book. I'll find the exact quote some other time, but he claims that he ran into a true psychic that did not want to undergo the test and that simply wanted to lead a normal life, yet Randi admits the paranormal element in this man's abilities. On a side note, his investigations will always prove that nothing paranormal exists because his criteria for testing includes that nothing is paranormal, because somewhere it can all be explained in scientific terms. However, it hinges on many scientific discoveries that have not been made or even thoroughly investigated yet.

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to SadistDave)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Ever - 10/20/2005 12:13:00 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		Oh, neat! You have the Viconti deck too? I picked mine up for $20.00 at the Feast of the Hunter's Moon. They're a gorgeous gold liefed deck. My other favorite is the Robin Wood deck. The illustrations are gorgeous.

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to MasterBenedict)
Profile   Post #: 36
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