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Marc2b -> RE: 27 April 1940 (4/29/2008 8:23:38 AM)
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What simplistic ideological bullshit? Believing in self governance is not simplistic ideological bullshit, it is what most people aspire to. You live in a country that has it, why would you deny it to other people?
Um... you do realize who you are talking to here, right? Mister Marc-get-government-out-of-peoples-lives-2b. Since when have I ever argued against self government? Hell, I'm so in favor of individual rights that I’m the guy who rails against the government setting a minimum wage!
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It is the attitudes of the right, their imperial ambitions, their exploitation and their unwillingness to let people govern themselves that has brought about the situation we have today.
It is the attitude of the human race. The right has no monopoly on it and left wing governments have shown themselves to be just as imperialistic as right wing governments. You are once again ascribing evil to one side and one side only.
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Let's go back to the crusades. One of the main reasons for fighting the crusades was booty and fighting for the pope and christianity merely an excuse! That was why the fouth crusade ended up sacking Christian Constantinople. The Crusaders on the whole weren't that bothered who they fought as long as their was booty to be won. In the first crusade the crusaders fought the Jews and Muslims in the siege of Jerusalem and ended up slaughtering the entire Jewish and muslimj population of the city. The crusaders never showed mercy and often the muslims did.
Booty is almost always the underlying reason for a war (most wars are nothing more than an act of robbery writ large) but you cannot discount the political and religious motivations. The Christians saw their world shrinking before a Muslim onslaught and fought back. And while we are on the subject, what were the Muslim motivations for their invasions of Europe – to make the world a better place? Well, they probably believed that, same as the Christians who fought in the Crusades thought they were making the world a better place but ultimately both sides were motivated (sub-consciously if not always consciously) by the same thing. The same thing that humanity has been motivated by throughout its history – gain for us at the expense of the other.
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What you are saying is, we have a right to be vicious because they are vicious.
I have said no such thing and am truly perplexed as to how you have derived that from anything I have said. I thought you were the one making that argument (the West is responsible for all their problems therefore they are justified in any response).
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A rather tawdry moral stance that is.
Yes it is, isn’t it. And it is one I have argued against frequently on these boards.
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I don't know if you are Christian but that is the normal christian response.
For the record: I consider myself a Christian with a small "c" not a capital "C," by which I mean that I do not believe the Bible is the word of God or in the divinity of Christ or even Heaven or Hell (I refuse to believe that God is a sadistic prick). I do, however, accept the fact that I was born into and raised in a culture shaped by Christian thinking.
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Very rarely do we see christians acting upon christian values,
Very rarely? Well, at least you didn't say never. You have either had little contact with average day-to-day Christians and/or you are coming to this conclusion based upon a prejudice (or both). I know many deeply religious Christians and they are some of the kindest, most generous people you would ever want to meet (but those kind of people don’t often make the news, do they?).
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they never did in the crusades but then the crusades were about money and conquest which brings me back to where I came in.
They never did? This is what brings me back to the beginning. First you stated that the West was responsible for all of the Middle East’s problems. Now you are stating that the Christians never showed mercy? These are absolutist statements and it is that which rankles me. I detest absolutism. It is a form a moral cowardice that absolves people from having to think. It allows people to justify discrimination, oppression, tyranny, and atrocity.
Now, people do tend to use absolutist terms when describing "known" (which doesn’t necessarily mean accurate) generalities. I do it myself. It is a perfectly normal part of human conversation and most of the time when we do it people understand that we don’t really mean all, or every, etc. We mean the majority. But since this isn’t really a conversation and therefore lacks the subtle body language and vocal tones that we use to convey meaning, I was uncertain if this was the case in your statement. That is why I asked wether you really meant that the West was responsible for all of the Middle East’s problems and not just most of them (which I still might not agree with but at least it is not an absolutist position.
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No looking in the mirror then?
This is the true irony of your last post – I thought that I was the one holding the mirror up for you.
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