An anatomy of surrender? (Full Version)

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Level -> An anatomy of surrender? (4/28/2008 4:03:55 AM)

quote:

Islam divides the world into two parts. The part governed by sharia, or Islamic law, is called the Dar al-Islam, or House of Submission. Everything else is the Dar al-Harb, or House of War, so called because it will take war—holy war, jihad—to bring it into the House of Submission. Over the centuries, this jihad has taken a variety of forms. Two centuries ago, for instance, Muslim pirates from North Africa captured ships and enslaved their crews, leading the U.S. to fight the Barbary Wars of 1801–05 and 1815. In recent decades, the jihadists’ weapon of choice has usually been the terrorist’s bomb; the use of planes as missiles on 9/11 was a variant of this method.

What has not been widely recognized is that the Ayatollah Khomeini’s 1989 fatwa against Satanic Verses author Salman Rushdie introduced a new kind of jihad. Instead of assaulting Western ships or buildings, Kho­meini took aim at a fundamental Western freedom: freedom of speech. In recent years, other Islamists have joined this crusade, seeking to undermine Western societies’ basic liberties and extend sharia within those societies.

The cultural jihadists have enjoyed disturbing success. Two events in particular—the 2004 assassination in Amsterdam of Theo van Gogh in retaliation for his film about Islam’s oppression of women, and the global wave of riots, murders, and vandalism that followed a Danish newspaper’s 2005 publication of cartoons satirizing Mohammed—have had a massive ripple effect throughout the West. Motivated variously, and doubtless sometimes simultaneously, by fear, misguided sympathy, and multicultural ideology—which teaches us to belittle our freedoms and to genuflect to non-Western cultures, however repressive—people at every level of Western society, but especially elites, have allowed concerns about what fundamentalist Muslims will feel, think, or do to influence their actions and expressions. These Westerners have begun, in other words, to internalize the strictures of sharia, and thus implicitly to accept the deferential status of dhimmis—infidels living in Muslim societies.

Call it a cultural surrender. The House of War is slowly—or not so slowly, in Europe’s case—being absorbed into the House of Submission.


http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_2_cultural_jihadists.html

[sm=beatdeadhorse.gif]..... but interesting, nonetheless.




Rule -> RE: An anatomy of surrender? (4/28/2008 5:24:23 AM)

It is all lies. There were no planes used as missiles on 911.  Van Gogh was murdered by a muslim driven nuts, but that had nothing to do with islam which was used as a tool only. That Danish cartoonist is fishy as well. All these cases have been blamed on muslims and used to get them agitated as well as to agitate against them, whereas in fact the muslims are perfectly innocent.




kittinSol -> RE: An anatomy of surrender? (4/28/2008 5:54:21 AM)

Knock knock, quizz time: what has been the single-handedly most belligerent culture on the planet for decades? Bonus point if you guess its predominant religion [8|] .




LadyEllen -> RE: An anatomy of surrender? (4/28/2008 6:01:02 AM)

I once heard that there was a football match over here between Chelsea and the B team of a local pub. Chelsea came out as one, whilst the King’s Arms’ Sunday League Division 4 B-Team were running all over the place and got beaten all around the pitch every time. The regulars of the King’s Arms admired the unity, discipline and skill of their opponents even as they were time and again outmanoeuvred in midfield.

Chelsea brought 10,000 fans to the match – each one in the new team shirt and a mine of team information, determined to see their team win, whilst outside the ground in the everyday world hundreds of thousands of others, whilst it wouldn’t have ruined their day otherwise, wanted to see Chelsea win. From the pub there were two-dozen other regulars watching the match – none of them paying as much attention to the match as they were to discussing the merits of the beer, the weather and the latest BMW, whilst the rest of the country was totally disinterested in the match, and focussed on Buy One Get One Free offers and the mindless blurb from yet another game show or Big Brother broadcast.

After the match, some said that The Kings Arms’ B-Team and its followers had best sharpen up quickly for the return match. But they didn’t. They sat and pondered and came up with a myriad of excuses as to why they lost. They blamed the bias of the referee, the professional fouls of the Chelsea players and the wetness or dryness of the pitch, the absence of support for them and the floodlighting. They then took to blaming one another, when in every way, the reason they lost was that they had no clue whatsoever about what they were facing and no will or ability to make any appropriate change to cope with it as a team.

When the time for the return match came around, Chelsea won by forfeit. The regulars of the King’s Arms had blamed one another so vociferously for the result of the first match that they had all fallen out badly about football and not one of them had turned up. Yet they were found in the bar, blithely discussing the merits of the beer, the weather and the latest BMW and boasting about the Buy One Get One Free offers on beer and snacks they’d taken advantage of as the ideal accompaniment to some mindless game show they planned to watch this evening.

E




meatcleaver -> RE: An anatomy of surrender? (4/28/2008 7:25:01 AM)

 
'Call it a cultural surrender. The House of War is slowly—or not so slowly, in Europe’s case—being absorbed into the House of Submission.'
 
I don't buy it. The only way I can come to terms with the right's paranoia about mainstream Islam is assume all they are interested in is starting a war for imperial reasons. Nothing else makes sense. The west created militant islam with its foreign policies and its maintaining militant islam through continuing foreign policy. With concentration camps like Gaza and illegal wars like Iraq, there will always be angry and frustrated young men with no future that will be manipulated into being willing to die for some spurious cause by fanatics.




Archer -> RE: An anatomy of surrender? (4/28/2008 10:30:52 AM)

So the "West" created the Moors and issued the Edict to spread Islam with a convert or die mentality?
The original cause was the fact that Islamic Faith made the same choice that Christianity made many years before.
After that the seeds of resentment simply keep sprouting on both sides for the most recent slap.




Bethnai -> RE: An anatomy of surrender? (4/28/2008 11:40:28 AM)

In 1953, at the request of England, the US staged a coup to overthrow Mossedegh in Iran.  Why? Because Mossedegh was trying to nationalize the oil.  The problem was that the Iranians had created a constitution much earlier and Mossedegh had been elected by the people.  Talk about some pissed off people.  It brought about the 1979 Islamic Revolution.  Khomeini made a comeback.  That is a way extreme Shiite sect. So extreme that Iran today no longer wants to export its religion, even in Iraq, because of the severe economic consequences. 

The Wahabbi sect, from Saudi Arabia, had been busy lobbying in the US. People submitted to the almighty petro-dollar. Even universities played a part. Everybody got cash. The majority of the muslims in the US and the West are Sunni. This started in the 1970's.  All that was required of the major corporations were that they could not hire anyone who was Jewish, and like it or not it still rolls today.

The Arc of Islam theory finally got to be set in motion during the 1980's, the US willingly, knowingly, and consciously used Wahhabism to create a jihad to break the Soviet Union. Saudi Arabia met the US dollar for dollar utilizing what is referred to as the Peshawar Seven.  By the way all of that couldn't have been achieved without the aid of Pakistan.

People can stand around and shred the Quran.  When people start talking about liberty it usually is the liberty to divide conquer and take whatever someone else has, oil for instance.




meatcleaver -> RE: An anatomy of surrender? (4/28/2008 11:59:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

So the "West" created the Moors and issued the Edict to spread Islam with a convert or die mentality?
The original cause was the fact that Islamic Faith made the same choice that Christianity made many years before.
After that the seeds of resentment simply keep sprouting on both sides for the most recent slap.



Well, I thought it somewhat pointless going back so far but muslims are no more cruel and vicious than christians. I was rather thinking of the imperial and post imperial age where first teh European powers and then the US exploited and manipulated the ME to their own perceived advantage. The ME is just biting back. I doubt religion is that relevant but just a symbol to rally around in face of ourside interference.




Archer -> RE: An anatomy of surrender? (4/28/2008 12:11:47 PM)

We talk about their convert or die they talk about us having a new crusade. We talk about religious imperialism they talk about economic imperialism. I'm simply saying that it's all about who got slapped hardest last.
They see it from their persepctive we see it from ours.

My point is that unless and until folks say OK time to consider this a reset moment it will continue.




Alumbrado -> RE: An anatomy of surrender? (4/28/2008 4:16:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bethnai

In 1953, at the request of England, the US staged a coup to overthrow Mossedegh in Iran.  Why? Because Mossedegh was trying to nationalize the oil.  The problem was that the Iranians had created a constitution much earlier and Mossedegh had been elected by the people.  Talk about some pissed off people.  It brought about the 1979 Islamic Revolution.  Khomeini made a comeback.  That is a way extreme Shiite sect. So extreme that Iran today no longer wants to export its religion, even in Iraq, because of the severe economic consequences. 

The Wahabbi sect, from Saudi Arabia, had been busy lobbying in the US. People submitted to the almighty petro-dollar. Even universities played a part. Everybody got cash. The majority of the muslims in the US and the West are Sunni. This started in the 1970's.  All that was required of the major corporations were that they could not hire anyone who was Jewish, and like it or not it still rolls today.

The Arc of Islam theory finally got to be set in motion during the 1980's, the US willingly, knowingly, and consciously used Wahhabism to create a jihad to break the Soviet Union. Saudi Arabia met the US dollar for dollar utilizing what is referred to as the Peshawar Seven.  By the way all of that couldn't have been achieved without the aid of Pakistan.

People can stand around and shred the Quran.  When people start talking about liberty it usually is the liberty to divide conquer and take whatever someone else has, oil for instance.


Nice.




BrineEyes -> RE: An anatomy of surrender? (4/28/2008 4:47:32 PM)

Okay I know better to debate this, but a resourse for you all:  On the Managment or Savagery for those of you that see the threat as a threat and aren't going to bantr about if we deserve the fire while the house is burning down, for those of you who will read chapter one for thier arguments, even if we make an enemy we still have to fight them, this is a intrestung look into the resolve of those who want to be our enemies.
Abstract on Wiki:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Management_of_Savagery
Link to the full book: (translate) http://www.wcfia.harvard.edu/olin/images/Management%20of%20Savagery%20-%2005-23-2006.pdf





Level -> RE: An anatomy of surrender? (4/28/2008 4:50:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrineEyes

for those of you that see the threat as a threat and aren't going to bantr about if we deserve the fire while the house is burning down


Translator, aisle 9!




BrineEyes -> RE: An anatomy of surrender? (4/28/2008 5:54:16 PM)

Pardon the mixed metaphor.  People who blame radical jihadism on economic imperialism are misssin the point that these are still people that want to kill them.  It's never resonable to let somone kill you: only honorable, and honor isn't worth the freedoms of our civilization.  Personally I'd argue our responabaility, but the shear blindness of the argument allways suprises me.




Level -> RE: An anatomy of surrender? (4/28/2008 6:04:18 PM)

Well, the ones that blame imperialism and the like do so partially to try to get us to rethink our actions, in an attempt to head off any more violence. Now, very little in life is simple, and this certainly is not. Some of the terrorists are just monsters, and are on a one-way trip to whatever clusterfuck they can land.




thornhappy -> RE: An anatomy of surrender? (4/28/2008 6:28:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Motivated variously, and doubtless sometimes simultaneously, by fear, misguided sympathy, and multicultural ideology—which teaches us to belittle our freedoms and to genuflect to non-Western cultures, however repressive—people at every level of Western society, but especially elites, have allowed concerns about what fundamentalist Muslims will feel, think, or do to influence their actions and expressions.

I'm personally tired of seeing the demons of multiculturalism being waved about any time someone gives an explanation of another's culture and its good & bad points.  There's good and bad about any culture - no one's perfect or pure of heart.

The second thing I'm tired of is "elites".  Most folks in congress, including the ones on the right who frequently rail about the evil doings of the elites, are elites themselves, having gone to prominent law schools.  Fer crying out loud, Bush 43 is an elite (Andover, Harvard, Yale).

thornhappy

edited to correct the quote formatting





Level -> RE: An anatomy of surrender? (4/29/2008 3:06:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

I'm personally tired of seeing the demons of multiculturalism being waved about any time someone gives an explanation of another's culture and its good & bad points.  There's good and bad about any culture - no one's perfect or pure of heart.


Except me. [:D]

quote:

The second thing I'm tired of is "elites".  Most folks in congress, including the ones on the right who frequently rail about the evil doings of the elites, are elites themselves, having gone to prominent law schools.  Fer crying out loud, Bush 43 is an elite (Andover, Harvard, Yale).

thornhappy


True.





meatcleaver -> RE: An anatomy of surrender? (4/29/2008 3:39:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrineEyes

Pardon the mixed metaphor.  People who blame radical jihadism on economic imperialism are misssin the point that these are still people that want to kill them.  It's never resonable to let somone kill you: only honorable, and honor isn't worth the freedoms of our civilization.  Personally I'd argue our responabaility, but the shear blindness of the argument allways suprises me.


I'm wondering how you would argue away the west's responsibility for the terrorism we have formented when it is western powers that were dabbling in the ME, not the ME countries dabbling in the west.

And no, people who hold my view are not missing the point. Imperialism and macho politics is what created the terrorist problem and more macho politics only creates the next generation of terrorists, this is not a theory, it is demonstrably true.

What defeats terrorism is to divide a host population from the terrorists and you do that by giving the host population hope in the future. Of course there is always the opposite view of fighting terrorism like Israel does which takes hope away from people, replaces it with despair and regularly breeds another generation of terrorists.




Termyn8or -> RE: An anatomy of surrender? (4/29/2008 5:11:41 AM)

"Knock knock, quizz time: what has been the single-handedly most belligerent culture on the planet for decades? Bonus point if you guess its predominant religion"

Not with a ten foot pole kit. I am taking the fifth.

T




philosophy -> RE: An anatomy of surrender? (4/29/2008 10:22:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

We talk about their convert or die they talk about us having a new crusade. We talk about religious imperialism they talk about economic imperialism. I'm simply saying that it's all about who got slapped hardest last.
They see it from their persepctive we see it from ours.

My point is that unless and until folks say OK time to consider this a reset moment it will continue.


...there is much truth in this. Both sides bear equal though different reponsibilities for this war of cultures.




BrineEyes -> RE: An anatomy of surrender? (4/29/2008 2:14:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
I'm wondering how you would argue away the west's responsibility for the terrorism we have formented when it is western powers that were dabbling in the ME, not the ME countries dabbling in the west.


Foriegn policy  involves both war, the big stick we are called on to use now and then, and other sticks, go to the gas pump and you can see the combined effect of 1. ME countries meddling, and other factors (China's push for superpower status, various green policies limiting energy independence ect.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
And no, people who hold my view are not missing the point. Imperialism and macho politics is what created the terrorist problem and more macho politics only creates the next generation of terrorists, this is not a theory, it is demonstrably true.

What defeats terrorism is to divide a host population from the terrorists and you do that by giving the host population hope in the future. Of course there is always the opposite view of fighting terrorism like Israel does which takes hope away from people, replaces it with despair and regularly breeds another generation of terrorists.

There are pro's and cons to both strategies: IIsrael has not yet been able to negotiate from a secure position of stregth, despite the seven days war IMHO, but what do you consider to be Macho politics, and while were on the topic what did you think of what ADM(R) Fallon said in the Esquire article (the quotes not the commentary mind you?

Edited as allways for those major typos that might make you miss-parce me.  The minor ones can stand for my lazytyping.




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