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RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 8:36:20 AM   
subbie333


Posts: 86
Joined: 9/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordskitten
I never was trying to say that being outted isnt bad, it is i'm sure. Especially if you have a lot of ties you dont want to loose. All i'm asking is why you can loose a job over sexual prefrence? Are there legal options you can take to fight back?


Of course, but, these things take time and money, and, sometimes people don't have enough of both to make it worth the fight. Plus, sometimes people lie. If it comes down to your word against your boss's word, and, the boss has somebody lie for them in court, guess what happens?


subbie_333

(in reply to Lordskitten)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 9:11:33 AM   
FTopinMichigan


Posts: 571
Joined: 7/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordskitten

I'm not sure i understand the concern over being outted...While humilating and horrible i'm sure, why the panic? I've heard stories of people loosing their jobs, family, friends, home, everything. I can understand about the family and friends but the rest?
<snip>
Now down to my question, WHY would being outted as a Dominant/submissive Sadist/masocist in a relationship cause one to loose their job?


I'm at a loss to understand this post, in that when you lose your "jobs, family, friends, home, everything"....there is nothing more to lose. What is the "rest?" What more could one possibly lose then.

Michigan is an "at will state" where you can be fired for no reason at all. I could wear a pink blouse one day and be fired cause my boss didn't like it, and that's okay, according to the law. I'd probably get a raise if my boss new I was a Domme.

K

Edited for an OOPS!

< Message edited by FTopinMichigan -- 10/15/2005 8:31:02 PM >

(in reply to Lordskitten)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 9:36:22 AM   
ShadeDiva


Posts: 1005
Joined: 3/31/2004
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline 		California is also an "at will" state. Meaning any employer can fire an employee for ANY reason. If they have a good attorney they pretty much don't have to worry.

California is also VERY open - even in the small towns - as compared to the Bible belt when it comes to transgendered and gay relationships and a lot of other things. So though you saw that the fellow was able to trans, the fact is that in California that would be met with usually not much shock or surprise as compared to if you were trying that in say rural Kentucky.

In regards to this question:

quote:

I'm at a loss to understand this post, in that when you lose your "jobs, family, friends, home, everything"....there is nothing more to lose. What is the "rest?" What more could one possibly lose then.


The poster actually said this:

quote:

I'm not sure i understand the concern over being outted...While humilating and horrible i'm sure, why the panic? I've heard stories of people loosing their jobs, family, friends, home, everything. I can understand about the family and friends but the rest?


Meaning that they could understand about the family and friends, but not understand the home, jobs, and everything part. At leats that is how it reads literally from the words that they chose to use.

Let me add in health. Some places in the world you could be facing beingmade into a target. A target for hate groups, Christian activist groups (they have picketed kinksters that were outted at home or their employment), or for actual physical harm in the form of beatings or displays of aggression.

A man trying to trans in again say rural Kentucky might face being made a target for the good ol' boys after they have had a few beers and decide to go "have some fun with the girlie man". Things like that can quickly esculate espeically if there is drinking involved and they are out in the boonies.

And hell it's not just isolated to rural areas. Urban folks have faced vandalism, sometimes vicious acts like bricks through windows, tires slashed, buring things, dead animals in yards, targeting the children (did you know your mommy and daddy are sick little girl? They are doing nasty things), trying to TAKE the children away, all sorts of things.

Humans can be very ugly little critters especially if they fear or don't understand something, and/or believe that all humans should conform to the same things and live the same way they live.

_____________________________

~ShadeDiva
My projects of love:
theFetishForums
HumanFauna
Kinked
DommeWorld

(in reply to FTopinMichigan)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 9:38:32 AM   
realsumissive


Posts: 73
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		This subject I have some knowledge and experience, so I will relate my experience. I met a dominant woman on a lifestyle site, and we got along quite well. We talked online, and on the telephone over a two month period. I was anxious to meet her. Then the bomb. She was married. I immediately ceased all contact. Over the course of our getting to know each other, I told her of my job, and where I worked. I was quite surprised when my photos (all vanilla) and some of the messages describing in detail my desire to serve and play with a domme enfemme. My desire to be placed in inescapable bondage, and my desire to be chastised were also included.

To make a long story short, I was in a senior management position, and was actually a consultant, so I was uncerimoniously terminated. It was a six figure job. The astounding part of the story that most people find very hard to believe is that the president of the company, who happened to be a fantastically beautiful blonde female, called me the next week to offer her appologies for the termination. She stated that she had to protect her job, and the board would ask questions if I wasn't terminated. Then she invited me to her home for a quiet dinner. I'm kicking myself in the ass to this day because I refused her request.

I no longer send photos to anyone one these sites. I do however immediately send photos to any domme that asks to a private email address along with a very vanilla message. Since we use stage names on this site, it would be impossible (or at the least, very difficult) to associate a private email with messages sent here. I do understand that most dommes are not like this, and many want to establish a serious relationship with a submissive man, but in the future I will protect my identity on these sites. There is a huge difference between being a gas station attendant, and being a business professional when being outed.

(in reply to Lordskitten)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 9:42:43 AM   
Phoenixandnika


Posts: 748
Joined: 4/22/2005
From: Aberdeen Maryland
Status: offline 		To a point I agree, larger corperations and certain professional jobs are more than likely the ones that will have issues with someone being in the lifestyle,however; loss of a job is simply that regardless if you make min. wage or $25 an hour.

Not only that the loss of trust is there regardless.

Nika{Phoenix}

_____________________________

"Life is neither a bed of roses nor a carpet of thorns, it's just what you make of it."



(in reply to realsumissive)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 9:59:25 AM   
RainGod


Posts: 230
Joined: 7/11/2005
From: Hendersonville, NC
Status: offline 		I hope I am not posting too much to this thread, but the further it goes, the more interesting this discussion seems to grow.

As I said before, if an employer wants you fired for a reason that is forbidden by law... race, religion, creed, nationality, age, sexual orientation, or any other protected areas... they will, and do find another reason for the dismissal.

Okay, let's say someone is outed for their lifestyle. If the discovery was made outside the job, meaning you never mingled your preferences on the job, or were found to be in infraction of company internet rules regarding porn related sites... it would be a very sticky legal issue for the company to fire you for that. It could also cause a media stink or other unsavory publicity for the company.

What I have witnessed happen was the Personnel Department of a certain firm simply dug into a woman's work record with a fine tooth comb. She had been employed there fifteen years. A lot can occur over a period of time. She was fired over "excessive tardies": Ten of them. Over fifteen years. They fired her because she came out as a lesbian. It only took one month after that (I might add she was not late ever in that last month, either) for them to cook up this plot and get rid of her.

Another case I witnessed was over a Caucasian man who married an African-American woman. He did nothing out of order at work after his marriage. In fact, to My knowledge, he was an exemplary model of a law enforcement officer... professional, extremely cool under pressure, and had a few letters of commendations in his service record for bravery, and duty above and beyond the call of his job. The agency he worked for could not fire him over his inter-racial marriage, and nothing was said to him directly about it. Sadly, in a workplace where courage, valor, and bravery are upheld as the finest character traits, Some of his fellow officers and superiors passed around much scuttlebutt (Navy term for rumors, malicious gossip, and character assassination) behind his back.

As a result of the ill-will toward that man, he was continually placed on rotating shifts more often than others. He was assigned tedious and boring details such as school zone monitoring for days at a time, instead of being where he once was... in the heat of action. He was passed over for certain critical schooling made available to other officers (always with a 'good' reason) and denied requested days off.

As a result, he finally quit his job he once loved and moved out of state to work for another agency. In essence, he was forced out. Treachery is a devious tool used by cowards and bigots who lack the courage and backbone to either stand accountable for their true actions, or simply shut the hell up and be a bit more tolerant.

_____________________________

Love is a razor & I walk the line on that silver blade... slept in the dust with His daughter her eyes red with the slaughter of innocence... The evil that men do lives on & on.
~ Iron Maiden

(in reply to realsumissive)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 10:01:00 AM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordskitten

Now down to my question, WHY would being outted as a Dominant/submissive Sadist/masocist in a relationship cause one to loose their job?



I've never worried over-much about being outed, but then again, I've never really hidden who and what I am. I've discussed in a previous post about why I've chosen to be as open as I am about my lifestyle choices (not just BDSM, but alternative spirituality, polyfidelity, GLBT, and body-mod as well). I actually think that being open without being "in your face" about the way I live has made life easier for me in everything from the smallest, liberal tech company to one of the most bureaucratic, HUGE, and overwhelmingly conservative health-care facilities in the Bible Belt.

On the other hand, I know, intimately, individuals who are not as open with their lives, and who are afraid that if they were, the people around them would find -some- reason to get rid of them. The problem with living in an alternative lifestyle (especially in a "right-to-work" state like the one in which I live) is that your boss doesn't -need- a reason to fire you...xhe just needs to not like you, and be able to provide enough evidence to justify having to replace and train someone else for your position to hir bosses. While this may not be an issue in states with more ... equitable employment laws, it is a real possibility in some states. Especially for individuals who have families that are dependent on them, anything that could jeopardize their current job -and- (through the rumor mill) damage their chance of getting another job is a -reasonable- thing to be concerned about.

We never tell our property that they have to be -out-, and in fact, we tell them that, if they want to stay quiet, they will refer to themselves by the name we provide them with within the household and will not let too many people know they know me (because I am so out, it wouldn't be hard to put two and two together). Being out to the general public is a risk -- it is a -real- risk...and it has to be up to each individual whether or not he or she is going to take that risk.

I can give many good reasons for being out. At the same time, I understand that some people aren't ready for the risks that come with it. To me, the benefits outweigh the risks, but it is a fact that others may not be in the same situation.

Lady Zephyr

(in reply to Lordskitten)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 10:09:29 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Again, lots of very good answers, and this is the one I identify with most.

I work on long-term contracts. If the other party of one of these contracts decided to void it or not renew it because they found out about my sex life, I would spare little effort in trying to get them fucked under the law. But that's a once-in-a-lifetime campaign. Why would I want to bring on a whole affair like that when I don't have to?

quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

But I am not sure what you don't get about people wanting a fairly calm stable connected life versus drama and lack of income and possibly having everything torn away from them and having to fight forever to get it back?


(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 10:46:08 AM   
KittenWithaTwist


Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		Actually, it's only illegal to fire you if you're gay. If you're anything other than gay (like BDSM for instance), it's all well and legal to fire you on the spot. The Equal Opportunity Employment Act only protects you based on a few key components, including age, and sex, and a few other ones. But whether or not you're a BDSM'er has zip to do with it.

I was outted by my mother. She snuck into my room and looked through my computer while I was at work. She even read my snail mail from the Society of Janus. She verbally attacked me one day while I was getting ready to leave for work, and screamed and yelled at me until she was blue in the face. She didn't listen to me when I tried to calmly explain to her that there was nothing wrong with my choices. She wouldn't even look at me.

I would never have chosen to come out to my family, but she did it for me.

I now work in a childcare facility. I have a feeling that if anyone knew, I would be fired on the spot. I would probably be fired before the woman who is a bartender at a strip club, and the woman who was in rehab for drugs and alcohol. Because having a strange sexuality is wrong in our society. And frankly, I like my job.

Being outted is not fun. It's usually a very negative and heartbreaking experience and can sever major ties between friends and family, not to mention coworkers and supervisors.

It may not be a concern to you, but for me it certainly was not a good experience.

(in reply to Lordskitten)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 10:49:19 AM   
realsumissive


Posts: 73
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks for the support, but I made twice that on my coffee break. Try over $100 an hour.

(in reply to Phoenixandnika)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 10:51:21 AM   
KittenWithaTwist


Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordskitten

I wasnt saying that loosing your home and assests wouldnt be a terrible thing...i'm saying WHY would you loose them? Yes people are close minded and as a group panic driven creatures. Yes they could harrass you to the point that you flee town. Yes you could give in and let everything happen exactly the way you say but why not stand up, and fight back? Hire a lawyer and sue the company that fired you for harassment and creating an unsafe workplace. Yea it might be hard to find a lawyer to represent you but not impossible i'm sure.

I never was trying to say that being outted isnt bad, it is i'm sure. Especially if you have a lot of ties you dont want to loose. All i'm asking is why you can loose a job over sexual prefrence? Are there legal options you can take to fight back?


Because some employers are not required to give you a reason. Or they can come up with some random stupid reason and not tell you the real one. And then, how do you prove it in court?

(in reply to Lordskitten)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 10:52:38 AM   
MasterHyde


Posts: 127
Joined: 4/10/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedjulia

Yes you could lose your job.

Certain employeers (I'm thinking Government here) WILL fire you if they think you could be open to blackmail or intimidation.



Interesting, don't you think? You keep it a secrect, because if people know you have a secret, then you get fired. It would stand to reason then, if you don't keep it a secret, you aren't susceptible to blackmail. So there would be no reason to fire you, eh? In the scenario you just described, one has to wonder if you're susceptible to being fired because you live an alternative lifestyle, or if you're susceptible to being fired because you kept it a secret. But the real reason kinky people lose jobs isn't secrecy.

The real reason kinky people lose their jobs is "morals." If you work with children. If you work with religious people. If you just work for some intolerant shit, or someone who's spineless enough to cave in to pressure from some other intolerant shits. The truth is, people make judgments about other people. It's normal, and to some degree, it's even healthy. But if an employer makes a judgment about an employee, and doesn't feel comfortable having that employee around anymore, someone's going to lose their job. And sometimes, they won't tell you why. Because if they did, you might have grounds for an unlawful termination lawsuit.

The other thing. An spiteful or intolerant ex-spouse might use "sexual deviance" as evidence that you're an unfit parent. People are always dragging sexual activities into divorce court and custody battles. And, if you've been indiscreet in front of the children, this might actually be a good thing that they are bringing it up. In most cases, though, I think it's bullshit. What I do in the bedroom doesn't necessarily affect my abilities to raise a child. But everything is related in some ways. This might be one detail in a larger picture that some people interpret as you being emotionally ill. In the case of some people I've met, this perception would be accurate. But again, sexual preference is only part of the picture. Some sexual deviants are prefectly healthy, upstanding citizens who I would gladly trust with my children. Most of them, like most vanilla people... no fucking way.

I guess it's a good thing I don't have kids. Huh?


_____________________________

Master Hyde
A self-righteous, poly, dominant, possessive control freak with strong paternal tendencies and a sadistic inner child

(in reply to ownedjulia)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 10:53:08 AM   
erebus


Posts: 169
Joined: 1/15/2004
Status: offline 		The problem with having anything in the closet isn't that the government would fire you if they found out, it's that the person themselves would do a lot of things to stay in the closet. So that's the risk.

(in reply to Lordskitten)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 11:00:57 AM   
erebus


Posts: 169
Joined: 1/15/2004
Status: offline 		Actually, before one fires someone, they have to be very careful to use one of the acceptable ways to accomplish that. It's not cowaredly or lack of backbone. It's following the letter of the law.

In California, it is extremely difficult to fire someone unless you document everything. And if someone is fired, they have an excellent chance at getting unemployment anyway.



quote:

Treachery is a devious tool used by cowards and bigots who lack the courage and backbone to either stand accountable for their true actions, or simply shut the hell up and be a bit more tolerant.

(in reply to RainGod)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 12:16:51 PM   
Wolfie648


Posts: 600
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Now down to my question, WHY would being outted as a Dominant/submissive Sadist/masocist in a relationship cause one to loose their job?


Do you remember the Spanish Inquisition?
Witch hunts?
Philadelphia (the movie)?

People fear being outted because of ignorance or predjudice on the part of others (I am not suggesting we in the community are perfect either) either by family, friends, in the workplace or even by strangers. Even if they have the law on their side, they may not have the knowledge or resources to take advantage of what is available to them. Even if they don't lose their job, they may find themselves passed over for promotions, shunned, ignored, etc. Not a fun work environment.

Personally I don't care who knows (but then I do own a sex store ;-) and at the same time I don't run around telling everybody either. Everyone's comfort level and situation is unique.

D (owner of j)

(in reply to Lordskitten)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 12:31:21 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		I think it depends on where you work and how out you all ready are.

I publish my erotica under the same name I work into a classroom using or a present a paper at an academic conference under.

I don't wear leather to work and I don't lead my slave around town on a leash -- neither of those are my thing though.

I'm just me all the time.

Have I had a threat against my academic career? Yes, I have. A nasty tenured professor didn't want me on a search community (our department has one advanced graduate student on each search) and threatened to out me. When she went and told the chair of the committee this, the chair said, "Yes, TammyJo has been my course assistant before, I know all about this. What does it have to do with the search." When it came down to it the rest of the faculty told this tenured professor if she didn't like me, get off the committee, I was the best graduate student for this search. We got an excellent professor out of it and since then, no problems that I know of.

Could my being out affect my job search next year? Maybe but then I'm lucky I have both a spouse and a slave with jobs, I have my writing (not a lot of income but some), I don't have to take a job somewhere I can't be myself.

Right now I really like just being able to be me wherever I go.

Something bad could happen in the future but I notice a lot folks target those who aren't out more than who are very out. I mean, if you are out, how much more out can you be or outed can you be.

This is in no way suggesting that everyone should be out. Each person must make that decision for him/herself. Its a complex issue that should not be taken likely. Once out, it would be mighty difficult to go back in.


_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Lordskitten)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 1:30:18 PM   
Stunning


Posts: 76
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen68
...We live in America (the majority of us on this site)... one of the most uptight countries when it comes to missionary, lights off kind of sex...

You're kidding, right? Ever been to the middle east? There is a big world out there.


quote:

ORIGINAL: sting516
Unfortunately, here in the US many states are considered 'at will' states with regard to employment. What that means is one can be fired for just about any reason, so long as it doesn't affect a 'protected class' simply for their being a protected class...

If you owned your own business you'd thank God for at will employment so you could actually fire lazy people without being sued. And your recitation of the law is somewhat innacurate, though its much better than most here. The protection is stepped in levels and state action must be involved. Unless you want government to regulate free enterprise. We call this fascism and fought a rather large war to stop it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
One of those protected classes in religion, which is a federal statute.

What in the world are you talking about? Religion is a statute? The euqal protetion classes have to do with common law jurisprudence, anyway.

quote:

However, lack of religion is not protected and you can be (and I have been) fired for being an athiest...

Just like you can be fired for being a southerner in California, or for having a beard, or for not bathing, or for saying "groovy" a lot, or for not liking sports, or for having long hair, or for having short hair, or for having red hair, or for having blue hair... ad nauseum.

quote:

...as an athiest I'm part of one of the smallest minorities in America.

Please tell me your statistics. Did you just make that up and throw it out for people to believe?


Why do poeple keep castigating the "Bible Belt"? It's obviously a euphamism for the South. Do you think there is no prejudice for this elsewhere in the US and the world, or that it's not as strong in other places? Where was that gay man tied to a fence and murdered? Colorado? Do you think the factory workers at the GM plant in Michigan wouldn't harass a man to death who was outted this way? Do you think it's ok in upstate NY to tell everyone you discipline your sub with a crop? Is Ohio so open-minded that a man can slap a woman in the face and call her a dirty whore at a restaurant and not be arrested? How about seeing the mote in your own eye before pointing out the beam in your southern neighbor's.

Or I'll slap you in the face and call you a dirty whore.

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 1:46:45 PM   
ShadeDiva


Posts: 1005
Joined: 3/31/2004
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline 		Calling it the Bible belt isn't necessarily castigating it when it's been fairly true for most of this country's history. And it isn't neccesarily an euphemism for the South, that's its literal definition:

Main Entry: Bible Belt
Function: noun: an area chiefly in the southern U·S. whose inhabitants are believed to hold uncritical allegiance to the literal accuracy of the Bible; broadly : an area characterized by ardent religious fundamentalism

If you don't like it talk to the dictionary people, lol. Kind silly to get angry at somoene for using a term as it is defined, IMO.

Ohio? Open-minded? The state that tried to censor museums?

LOL. Sorry I just found that really funny.

As for the slapping in the face and calling someone a dirty whore - one you say that like it's a *bad* thing, lol, and two, as long as it's consensual, sounds fine to me.

LOL.

_____________________________

~ShadeDiva
My projects of love:
theFetishForums
HumanFauna
Kinked
DommeWorld

(in reply to Stunning)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 1:51:07 PM   
KittenWithaTwist


Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		Actually, as far as I know, the Bible Belt consists of most of the states that grow our crops, including most of the Midwest (from the Dakotas and Montana down to Oklahoma, Texas, and Alabama, etc).

I guess I didn't really notice anyone pointing out specific areas (besides the OP) where there are "more" prejudice people. However, it is a bit easier, I think, to live out one's life in a more liberal area or blue state, as opposed to Nebraska or Texas or Tennessee.

And you're right, there's a lot of prejudice all over the world, but D/s, as far as I know it, seems to be more prevalent in free societies, like the US, Canada, parts of Europe, and Australia. I don't see quite as many consensual D/s relationships in Afghanistan, China, or Ethiopia.

I think this may me because people in some of those countries have more problems (starvation, religious persecution, war, death, HIV) than being outted about their sexuality. Not that that isn't a significant problem, period. But sometimes finding enough food to feed your family is a tad more pressing.

(in reply to Stunning)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 2:01:03 PM   
Stunning


Posts: 76
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stunning
Why do poeple keep castigating the "Bible Belt"? It's obviously a euphamism for the South. Do you think there is no prejudice for this elsewhere in the US and the world, or that it's not as strong in other places?


I was simply saying that people are impugning the South and shouldn;t because prejudice is everywhere and not any worse in the South. I recognized they were talking about the South because they were referring to the Bible Belt, which is a euphamism for the South. What's the confusion?

Come 'ere so I can slap you, ya dirty whore.

(in reply to Stunning)
Profile   Post #: 40
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