Wrong Presentation, but some good stuff (Full Version)

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MistressOfGa -> Wrong Presentation, but some good stuff (5/3/2008 8:23:53 PM)

I know that the thread "Deceptions" was basically sabotaged by the OP, but I feel that he brought up some interesting points, that I think would make great discussions for those who are willing to look at the thread with a new look.

Level wrote to me and asked me what I wanted to discuss about the thread, and would I mind sharing with him my thoughts. I sent him back this email, which I asked what he thought of my posting it on the boards. So once again...here is the thread that started it, minus the OP's nasty comments. He is more than welcome to join in, but if he does not want a decent conversation, then I will put him on block. He would be the first one on my block list, BTW.

The following are my opinions only. I would love to hear what y'all have to say about these topics.







His is in italics and bolded. I also used spell check on his OP.

Even if/when submission is given ?
It does not mean acceptance is guaranteed.
For a Dom has a gift too. And to receive that gift ?
Ones submission needs to be earned with their obedience,
and devotion proven.

I rather like this line. I find it true. I would want my
sub to earn my acceptance, but I suppose that is why
*I* don't collar someone two days after I meet him.
He, like I, must prove to me, and I to him, that we
are both worthy of the acceptance that we are both
giving and receiving.


It's a 2 way street in a BD/SM world that is 'subliminally,
and deceptively, being created/influenced by so called
submissives who are trying to modify the definitive respect
for the lifestyle so it can cater to their fun and games
fad time play.
And although it is a 2 way street ?

You have to almost agree with this. How many times do we see
new subs come on and talk about it being about playtime and
about how they will not do this, or do that? It IS almost like
a fad to some. Both subs and Doms.

The Dom is to be Dom enough to understand that
they are to be the one with the ultimate control.
Unfortunately there is a severe shortage of
Real Male Doms out there who are truly able to
create a real submissive women.

We could have talked about who it is that is ultimately in
control. Also, can a Dominant create a submissive in real life?
*I didn't have an opinion to this when I wrote it.
I would however, love to hear your opinion of it.*

Yet just as unfortunate is the fact that there are more
submissive women out there with the sincere desire to
submit, but have lost the confidence in doing so because
of there being so many Male Dom WANNABEE Idiots out
there ruining the sincere desired intent of so many sub
women who just need to be what they were genetically
designed to be.

Wow, we could have had some real fun with this. It is true,
that there are idiot Dominants out there, both male and
female who ruin a nice submissive who's only desire is to
serve. and...wow...are sub women really genetically designed??

Cool subjects, both of them

Never has there been a time in history where so many
women are willing and wanting to be who they oh so
naturally desire to be. Submissive to Man.

Now, this I just found silly lol...BUT, there was a time that
this could have been true. Before the age of sufferage...?
Maybe? Something to think about at least.

Yet there has never been a greater level of abuse in this knowledge of womens needs by Dom wannabes who
are just trying to cure some desperately dangerous
case of loneliness by following a fad to those who they
believe may be just as desperate. What a dangerous
mix that is huh ?

Yes, it is a very dangerous mix. It is so dangerous that
women have been raped and murdered going to meet
a wannabe Dom who promised her whatever she wanted
to hear.

Just as poisonous is that there are so many so called
subs out there with the sneaky intent to Top from the
bottom with their insistence to promote the one side
being a bigger/better/only gift on the table of
consideration. It is a rude awakening when they realize
otherwise.

Absolutely there are. Sheesh the forum is filled with subs
who try to top from the bottom.

A Real Dom knows this psychological ploy.
He won't be fooled and walk away from any such attempt identified.
There are so many subs these days top from the
bottom because of the fact that they know there are
so many panty waste Dom wannabes out there that
they can get away with it.
Chances are? You're one of either ?

OK, his choice of words were wrong, but his idea was right.
Again, it is almost a battle of wills when it comes to
negotiations with subs now days. At least it is for me lol

Or you know what I'm talking about, and know those
who play this game.
D/s is not a fetish to be played with like feet.
For those of us who respect it definitively ?
Know it as our life.

True, true. In my OP, I made fun of this statement. But it
is true, a caring Dominant knows the difference and knows
it is their life, at least I do. I suppose that is why I took
his post so seriously. I looked past his condescending ways
and his slander, and picked out the things I found interesting.

Female Domination is nothing but the reaction of an
extreme fear to the extent of their own submissive
desires so they counter/fight it with by being just
the opposite. Resistance created by fear in being
who they really are in the name of self preservation.
I've confronted Dommes with this theory only to receive
blushes before their head bowed in respectful submission
to the fact.

Well we have all pretty much thrown this shit in the toilet.
Not worth discussing, even though the main gist of my post
was on this quote. *Again, if you wish to discuss this one,
feel free :) *

When one is confronted with shameful truths identified, and shared with them ?,,,, Their reaction is sure to be denial.

Well...Maybe in his world. Certainly not in mine.

Thank you Level, for giving me the chance to voice what
I wanted to say. You are such a dear heart. God bless you,
I want to give you a big hug!!

MoGa

 




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kiwisub12 -> RE: Wrong Presentation, but some good stuff (5/3/2008 9:56:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa







Even if/when submission is given ?
It does not mean acceptance is guaranteed.
For a Dom has a gift too. And to receive that gift ?
Ones submission needs to be earned with their obedience,
and devotion proven.

its true - just because i submit doesn't mean he accepts my submission.


The Dom is to be Dom enough to understand that
they are to be the one with the ultimate control.
Unfortunately there is a severe shortage of
Real Male Doms out there who are truly able to
create a real submissive women.
 
i don't think you can "create" a submissive woman. You may be able to brainwash someone into believing that one way of behaving is the right way, but that isn't true submission. Submission to  me it having two or more options of behaviour, and voluntarily, and consistantly choosingthe path becausethat is where i am most comfortable. Created submissives would be like the women in the Texas church compound, who parrot the party line, wear the party clothes and have the party hairstyle. They appear to have little choice in who they are.
I on the other hand,have multiple options, and choose submission. My Sir may be able to mold my behaviours to those that please him, but it was my choice to learn those behaviours, and my choice stems from something very basic in my makeup.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Yet just as unfortunate is the fact that there are more
submissive women out there with the sincere desire to
submit, but have lost the confidence in doing so because
of there being so many Male Dom WANNABEE Idiots out
there ruining the sincere desired intent of so many sub
women who just need to be what they were genetically
designed to be.
I don't believe that i am genetically predispositioned to be submissive. I firmly believe that this pattern of behaviour was imprinted on me as a child by my parents- abet subconsciously. I think i was "taught" by them how to please them, and act as they wished me to.  I also think that none of this was conscious, but a pattern of behaviour passed on from generation to generation.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Just as poisonous is that there are so many so called
subs out there with the sneaky intent to Top from the
bottom with their insistence to promote the one side
being a bigger/better/only gift on the table of
consideration. It is a rude awakening when they realize
otherwise.

don't think i have ever tried to tftb. Not sure how to go about it. Maybe i need lessons from all those sneaky bottoms.




O
Female Domination is nothing but the reaction of an
extreme fear to the extent of their own submissive
desires so they counter/fight it with by being just
the opposite. Resistance created by fear in being
who they really are in the name of self preservation.
I've confronted Dommes with this theory only to receive
blushes before their head bowed in respectful submission
to the fact.

Well we have all pretty much thrown this shit in the toilet.
Not worth discussing, even though the main gist of my post
was on this quote. *Again, if you wish to discuss this one,
feel free :) *
I find this interesting , because the corrollary would be that all submissive men are submissive from fear of their own inherent dominate natures. Hmm. Doesn't ring true to me.
 

 




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MistressOfGa -> RE: Wrong Presentation, but some good stuff (5/3/2008 10:08:38 PM)

kiwisub,
I just want to thank you for being the first to respond. I was beginning to think that no one would due to the questions being from the "other guy" lol
quote:

I don't believe that i am genetically predispositioned to be submissive. I firmly believe that this pattern of behaviour was imprinted on me as a child by my parents- abet subconsciously. I think i was "taught" by them how to please them, and act as they wished me to.  I also think that none of this was conscious, but a pattern of behaviour passed on from generation to generation.
I also believe that we are a product of our raisin', but that we do have the opportunity to change things as we grow up. But..once submissive, it is hard to switch to Dominance (my opinion only), especially if you have been conditioned to be submissive to your elders all of your life.
 
quote:

I find this interesting , because the corrollary would be that all submissive men are submissive from fear of their own inherent dominate natures. Hmm. Doesn't ring true to me.
 
And I adore how you turned this around. If the shoe fits on both sides, than both sides should wear them. I happen to think that I will never bow down to any Dominant, because I see myself as equals to them.
 
MoGa



Wickad -> RE: Wrong Presentation, but some good stuff (5/3/2008 10:38:16 PM)

fast reply

Greetings,

Thank you for quoting this but unfortunately all I can say at the moment about what you have quoted (not about your comments on said quote) is ... what a bunch of misogynistic tripe.

Wickad

PS - when I'm a bit less tired I'll stop back and elaborate on your wonderful comments and questions



StormsSlave -> RE: Wrong Presentation, but some good stuff (5/4/2008 12:52:46 AM)

Moga...thanks for reposting this.  I think his intent may have been good, though his approach was dreadful.  To me it sounded like the usual condescending preaching from the BDSM pulpit that those who have "been in the lifestyle" and "know all the rules" are passing on down to us lowly nobodies who only seek to engage in BDSM for our own kinky desires, and not the great noble tradition that has been passed down from generation of male dom to generation of male dom. 

The dom and sub are equal in the partnership.  It takes two consenting adults to create any relationship, even one engaging in BDSM, so the idea that the sub has the only gift to give is foolish.  On that I agree.

Can a dom(me) of any sex ruin a sub?  Sure, if promises aren't kept, boundaries aren't respected, and dominance turns to abuse, sure, I believe any sub would run for the hills and never look back.  I don't think it's a gender issue, so much as an abuse issue.  As for being genetically predisposed to submission due to being a female?  HUH?  So, what, if I was domme, that's a genetic mutation?  I'm not sure he's a geneticist, and has the authority to declare this.  Does he have a PHD?  Does he work in a lab?  Has he studied this?  I'm thinking probably not, but I'm open to him proving otherwise.  In the meantime, I'm going to say, I like the way it feels, he likes the way I do it, hey, it works for us, but it may not work for others.  I doubt genetics has a thing to do with it.

quote:

Or you know what I'm talking about, and know those
who play this game.
D/s is not a fetish to be played with like feet.
For those of us who respect it definitively ?
Know it as our life.

True, true. In my OP, I made fun of this statement. But it
is true, a caring Dominant knows the difference and knows
it is their life, at least I do. I suppose that is why I took
his post so seriously. I looked past his condescending ways
and his slander, and picked out the things I found interesting.

Since a fetish, by definition, is a sexual fixation on an object or body part, then no, it's not a fetish.  This statement on his part bothers me because it implies that unless one takes BDSM as the "serious, incredibly important thing that you all must know that it is" then you are not a twue dom/sub.   For many it is a lifestyle choice.  For many, it is sex and fun. One is not more valid then the other, or more important.  Just because My Lord does not treat me like a 24/7 slave doesn't mean I don't submit when it matters.  Just because BDSM is not the sole focal point of our existence together makes it no less real in our lives.  This attitude ranks up there with the other "twue dom" discussions that get shouted down as soon as they start.  I don't judge your kink, please stop judging mine.

quote:


Never has there been a time in history where so many
women are willing and wanting to be who they oh so
naturally desire to be. Submissive to Man.
 
I think this may be like most other things that people say never happened before in history.  We just didn't talk about it.  It's true.  Can you imagine the mothers of the 50's, or the 1800's, or especially colonial times sitting around the knitting bee or bridge game, and saying,
"Hey, Marge, do you like it when Joe ties you down to the bed, beats you with a cane, and then fucks you up the ass without lube?  Tom did that the other night, and I thought I was never going to stop cumming!  I just love it when he treats me like a whore!  Pass the potato salad, please?" 
Never in history has it been more acceptable to be sexually open, which is probably why there are seemingly so many more women who want to submit.  I believe it's just because we have the internet, we can now talk to people thousands of miles away, and we can stay reasonably anonymous while we do it.
 
Anyway, these are my thoughts.  Hope this helps.



peppermint -> RE: Wrong Presentation, but some good stuff (5/4/2008 1:26:21 AM)

quote:

Real Male Doms out there who are truly able to
create a real submissive women.
 
quote:

sub women who just need to be what they were genetically
designed to be. 
 
Created by a Dom or genetically designed....he should make us his mind cause he can't have it both ways.
 
quote:

Never has there been a time in history where so many
women are willing and wanting to be who they oh so
naturally desire to be. Submissive to Man.
 
For this silliness i demand statistics.  Don't quote history unless you can prove your point with real numbers you compiled or know of a study that did the work for you. 
 
quote:

Just as poisonous is that there are so many so called
subs out there with the sneaky intent to Top from the
bottom 
 
The old evil of topping from the bottom is now presented again.  I know of many instances when topping from the bottom is desired and required for the type of play.  It was debated on the forums just last week. 
 
quote:

D/s is not a fetish to be played with like feet.
 
Does this mean D/s can't be fun?  Does this mean that D/s can not be a turn on?  Why does he care so much as to the motives of those who play?  Does he wish to be a bedroom supervisor?   Perhaps watching and bedroom supervision are his fetishes...or are his morals just so high above me that he likes to rub my nose in it?  This is supposed to be fun, and if it stops being fun them count me out. 
 
MoGa,
 
I only selected a few quotes to comment upon.  Most of what he wrote i find incomprehensable...and not worth the time to even try to translate into a form of English i can comprehend.  Other quotes are such cliches that i do not feel the need to make a comment.  I will also admit, i found his rantings so badly written, so holier than thou that his quotes still make me angry.  I am not able to separate the message from the messenger.
 



eyesopened -> RE: Wrong Presentation, but some good stuff (5/4/2008 2:28:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa

Even if/when submission is given ?
It does not mean acceptance is guaranteed.
For a Dom has a gift too. And to receive that gift ?
Ones submission needs to be earned with their obedience,
and devotion proven.

It is for this reason i begged for my collar and state in my profile i have been collared and accepted.

It's a 2 way street in a BD/SM world that is 'subliminally,
and deceptively, being created/influenced by so called
submissives who are trying to modify the definitive respect
for the lifestyle so it can cater to their fun and games
fad time play.
And although it is a 2 way street ?

i agree that at some level, BDSM has become fashionable.  That something i do or wear or feel becomes the fad doesn't take anything away from my relationship.  i had this before it became fashionable and i will have it after the fad has faded.

The Dom is to be Dom enough to understand that
they are to be the one with the ultimate control.
Unfortunately there is a severe shortage of
Real Male Doms out there who are truly able to
create a real submissive women.

To clarify the at-odds statements that Dominants create submissive women and that submissive women are genetically designed.... i have always been a submissive woman.  i craved a Dominant man to allow me the freedom to realize my true self.
 

Yet just as unfortunate is the fact that there are more
submissive women out there with the sincere desire to
submit, but have lost the confidence in doing so because
of there being so many Male Dom WANNABEE Idiots out
there ruining the sincere desired intent of so many sub
women who just need to be what they were genetically
designed to be.
 
Never has there been a time in history where so many
women are willing and wanting to be who they oh so
naturally desire to be. Submissive to Man.

Now this has no basis in fact and really, if the OP examined this more closely, it may be the FAD (His opinion) that creates an illusion that in no other time in history have so many been willing...because it's a FAD (in his opinion).  There was a single time in history when when men found the 'shelf ass' highly attractive and that time was when bustles were the fad... Just sayin'

Yet there has never been a greater level of abuse in this knowledge of womens needs by Dom wannabes who
are just trying to cure some desperately dangerous
case of loneliness by following a fad to those who they
believe may be just as desperate. What a dangerous
mix that is huh ?

Predator + prey = dangerous mix.  Doesn't have to be D/s related.

Just as poisonous is that there are so many so called
subs out there with the sneaky intent to Top from the
bottom with their insistence to promote the one side
being a bigger/better/only gift on the table of
consideration. It is a rude awakening when they realize
otherwise.

Absolutely there are. Sheesh the forum is filled with subs
who try to top from the bottom.
 
i have nothing to add to this observation.

A Real Dom knows this psychological ploy.
He won't be fooled and walk away from any such attempt identified.
There are so many subs these days top from the
bottom because of the fact that they know there are
so many panty waste Dom wannabes out there that
they can get away with it.
Chances are? You're one of either ?

i'm so sorry but i'm ageless enough to know it's supposed to be panty-waist. (which is an old-timey version of a baby's "onesee")  Panty waste is the result of a good knife scene and in that context i think a panty waste Dominant is a huge turn-on.

Or you know what I'm talking about, and know those
who play this game.
D/s is not a fetish to be played with like feet.
For those of us who respect it definitively ?
Know it as our life.

True, true. In my OP, I made fun of this statement. But it
is true, a caring Dominant knows the difference and knows
it is their life, at least I do. I suppose that is why I took
his post so seriously. I looked past his condescending ways
and his slander, and picked out the things I found interesting.
 
I have nothing to add.

Female Domination is nothing but the reaction of an
extreme fear to the extent of their own submissive
desires so they counter/fight it with by being just
the opposite. Resistance created by fear in being
who they really are in the name of self preservation.
I've confronted Dommes with this theory only to receive
blushes before their head bowed in respectful submission
to the fact.

i can't imagine this to be true. 
 
When one is confronted with shameful truths identified, and shared with them ?,,,, Their reaction is sure to be denial.

Well...Maybe in his world. Certainly not in mine.

Thank you Level, for giving me the chance to voice what
I wanted to say. You are such a dear heart. God bless you,
I want to give you a big hug!!

MoGa
 
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and opening up discussion.
 



DominantJenny -> RE: Wrong Presentation, but some good stuff (5/4/2008 4:26:31 AM)

Female Domination is nothing but the reaction of an
extreme fear to the extent of their own submissive
desires so they counter/fight it with by being just
the opposite. Resistance created by fear in being
who they really are in the name of self preservation.
I've confronted Dommes with this theory only to receive
blushes before their head bowed in respectful submission
to the fact.
 
I didn't actually read the original post, so I didn't see this till now. Pardon me while I roll my eyes. I TRIED to submit. You know how it made me feel? VERY VERY BAD. Not in a good way bad, in a VERY BAD way bad. I wanted to shower afterwards, I felt violated....and this was with a very good friend, a very gentle guy, that I trusted and chose specifically because of those things. AND it wasn't even REAL, but in the safety of cyber (though highly skilled and realistic cyber.) That taste was more than enough for me. On top of that, there was a very brief period in my relationship where I put myself in a totally submissive position. I'm married to this guy, I loved him then as I love him now, and it took EVERYTHING I had to do that (and only ultimately happened because I was literally trying to save my relationship), and doing it again is not something I would ever be interested in. It was shatteringly difficult and hurt me. It was worth doing the once, just to show him that I'm not asking for more trust than I am capable of giving, to prove to MYSELF that I'm not asking for more trust than I'm capable of giving, but...no. That's a very, very, very, VERY hard limit for me and always will be.
 
No, I hate to break it to you, but some women are just as dominant to the core as some men are.
 
As for everything else, MoGa, I, for once, don't have anything to add to what's already been said. :)



Level -> RE: Wrong Presentation, but some good stuff (5/4/2008 5:07:46 AM)

MoGa, this is a case of someone making chicken salad out of you-know-what *grins* Well done, lady.
 
The original OPs comment:

quote:

The Dom is to be Dom enough to understand that
they are to be the one with the ultimate control.
Unfortunately there is a severe shortage of
Real Male Doms out there who are truly able to
create a real submissive women.


.....is one that caught my eye.
 
Do dominants (I'm sorry, "Real Dominants") create "real submissives"? Does he mean that a dominant, through their actions, create the space where a submissive can blossom? Grow? Feel safe enough to be themselves?
 
Interesting questions. As is the one about "ultimate control". If the submissive can get up and walk out the door, then THEY have the ultimate control.



MladyHathor -> RE: Wrong Presentation, but some good stuff (5/4/2008 5:41:54 AM)

quote:

Female Domination is nothing but the reaction of an
extreme fear to the extent of their own submissive
desires so they counter/fight it with by being just
the opposite. Resistance created by fear in being
who they really are in the name of self preservation.
I've confronted Dommes with this theory only to receive
blushes before their head bowed in respectful submission
to the fact.


spews her coffee---that is the most arrogant, supercillious, ignorant, backwoods statement I've heard in a long time---I'd bet My pay check this came from someone at "the compound".  For that comment I have two words---"bring it".
 
quote:

Never has there been a time in history where so many
women are willing and wanting to be who they oh so
naturally desire to be. Submissive to Man.


Right, thats why women in societally mandated submissive countries are losing their lives to break the cycle and experience freeedom.
 
I believe comments like those quoted, MoGa, show a deliberate psychological confusion between submission and oppression, dominance and domineering.
 
quote:

Or you know what I'm talking about, and know those
who play this game.
D/s is not a fetish to be played with like feet.
For those of us who respect it definitively ?
Know it as our life.

True, true. In my OP, I made fun of this statement. But it
is true, a caring Dominant knows the difference and knows
it is their life, at least I do.
 
Here is where I disagree with both of you, because you have implied or stated that only "real' or only "caring Dominants" can be found living the life ( what does that mean actually anyway)---I think that is an unfair generalization and a dangerous one--because it also implies that all the ones who profess it as their  life are the only good ones, or real ones. Nope, sorry, you can find crap everywhere--there are those that are "sceners" who are very caring and good,( are they not in the life then because they only engage in one aspect?) but just because they dont choose to engage in 24/7 doesn't mean they are posers---and there are those who have 24/7 that are lousy in their relationships.  IMHO We really need to be careful when we make comments about real,true, and only those who do this are really real.  There is no roadmap in this WIITWD, sure there are books of suggestions, techniques, couples who have lived it and been happy--but there is no Bible, no definitive--there are a mutltiude of variations on a theme-and like art---one person's trash is another persons treasure.
 
quote:

Yet there has never been a greater level of abuse in this knowledge of womens needs by Dom wannabes who
are just trying to cure some desperately dangerous
case of loneliness by following a fad to those who they
believe may be just as desperate. What a dangerous
mix that is huh ?

Yes, it is a very dangerous mix. It is so dangerous that
women have been raped and murdered going to meet
a wannabe Dom who promised her whatever she wanted
to hear.
 
Again, we need to look at reality-- as long as we have humanity, we will have crimes, granted,  people in this life have met foul ends at times--however, in the grand scheme of things---people are getting murdered MORE everyday for a variety of reasons-----statistically speaking, this is far less a preying ground than your own mall.
 
 
quote:

many Male Dom WANNABEE Idiots out
there ruining the sincere desired intent of so many sub
women who just need to be what they were genetically
designed to be.
 
Women are genetically designed to have fuller breasts, ovaries, a uterus, menopause cycles and children. I don't see one statement in there about submission---someone has been drinking too much of "the compound" kool-aid.
 
 
 



MistressOfGa -> RE: Wrong Presentation, but some good stuff (5/4/2008 6:48:36 AM)

quote:

True, true. In my OP, I made fun of this statement. But it
is true, a caring Dominant knows the difference and knows
it is their life, at least I do.

quote:

Here is where I disagree with both of you, because you have implied or stated that only "real' or only "caring Dominants" can be found living the life ( what does that mean actually anyway)---I think that is an unfair generalization and a dangerous one--because it also implies that all the ones who profess it as their  life are the only good ones, or real ones. Nope, sorry, you can find crap everywhere--there are those that are "sceners" who are very caring and good,( are they not in the life then because they only engage in one aspect?) but just because they dont choose to engage in 24/7 doesn't mean they are posers---and there are those who have 24/7 that are lousy in their relationships.  IMHO We really need to be careful when we make comments about real,true, and only those who do this are really real.  There is no roadmap in this WIITWD, sure there are books of suggestions, techniques, couples who have lived it and been happy--but there is no Bible, no definitive--there are a mutltiude of variations on a theme-and like art---one person's trash is another persons treasure.
 
M,
This is the one I struggled with for a long time. I am misunderstood here. I deliberately took out "real" and put in "caring" because I cant stand the word real for the very reason's you stated. You are right, "caring" may be just as bad as "real", but for a lack of a better word I put it there.
 
You know me. I do not believe in true dominants and real dominants. *I* was saying that dominance is my life, which is to say a part of me that will be with me forever. I can not escape my own skin. I would never presume to tell one how to run their life or how to do wiitwd. You are right, there is no roadmap to it.
 
MoGa
 



MistressOfGa -> RE: Wrong Presentation, but some good stuff (5/4/2008 6:55:41 AM)

quote:

Interesting questions. As is the one about "ultimate control". If the submissive can get up and walk out the door, then THEY have the ultimate control.


I absolutely agree with this.

quote:

MoGa, this is a case of someone making chicken salad out of you-know-what *grins* Well done, lady
 
Thank you Level.  I prefer potato salad, but chicken (OP's) may be more suited for this conversation. I have taken note that the originator of these words has not responded. I find that especially amusing. It only confirms what I said from the beginning, he did not want a decent conversation.
 
MoGa





Maya2001 -> RE: Wrong Presentation, but some good stuff (5/4/2008 9:36:10 AM)

quote:

Even if/when submission is given ?
It does not mean acceptance is guaranteed.
For a Dom has a gift too. And to receive that gift ?
Ones submission needs to be earned with their obedience,
and devotion proven.

Just because we label ourselves as submissive or dominant does not mean we are compatible matches  to the opposite in every case---it is really no different than a marriage both partners have to work together to make it a success

it's a 2 way street in a BD/SM world that is 'subliminally,
and deceptively, being created/influenced by so called
submissives who are trying to modify the definitive respect
for the lifestyle so it can cater to their fun and games
fad time play.
And although it is a 2 way street ?

Could be more a matter that the sub and dom were incompatible in the first  place and not an issue of being a "so called" sub  manipulating the situation.  The "so called" sub may be perfect for a different Dom....  it all depends on  individual views.  I was with a Dom that had ask me for me views  and I had expressed my needs and reasons which he said at the time was understandable and exceptable and few months later, a few months later he was pushing me to be a full time live in slave in a 24/7 TPE  totally ignoring everything I had said I needed.. like not wanting to relocate as I wanted to remain near family and continue to work so I could remain financially independent and that I felt a 24/7 TPE would be too resistrictive being I had spent almost the past 30 years living independently as a sole support parent.  If this is what he wanted he should have been upfront with me .... yes it is a 2 way street and the direction a master in shaping a sub to fit his needs  should be spelled out up front...if I knew the expectation up front ..it would have save months of wasted time and frustration

You have to almost agree with this. How many times do we see
new subs come on and talk about it being about playtime and
about how they will not do this, or do that? It IS almost like
a fad to some. Both subs and Doms. 

Your kink my not be necessarily my kink...should I have to submit to being fucked by all your friends if what I want is a monogamous relationship???? If it is than the problem is not about not wanting to do things to submit ..but a serious issue of compatibility

We could have talked about who it is that is ultimately in
control. Also, can a Dominant create a submissive in real life?
*I didn't have an opinion to this when I wrote it.
I would however, love to hear your opinion of it.*


I am not a dog to be trained to jump through hoops it is   growth/exploration  the stems respect/trust  that creates a desire to please but if the dom ignores moral issues the sub may have it erodes the trust/respect and therefore the desire to please.   Problems also stem from what you deem a submissive to mean...it likely is  not the same definition as someone else has


Yet just as unfortunate is the fact that there are more
submissive women out there with the sincere desire to
submit, but have lost the confidence in doing so because
of there being so many Male Dom WANNABEE Idiots out
there ruining the sincere desired intent of so many sub
women who just need to be what they were genetically
designed to be.

I am not genetically designed, it is not some form of weakness ...I don't submit to every man, only to the one I am with  if he has shown  me he is worthy of my submission.  I have no problems standing up to a man if I feel he has wronged me, I will not allow people to walk all over me

Never has there been a time in history where so many
women are willing and wanting to be who they oh so
naturally desire to be. Submissive to Man.

Do you mean there are more doormats out there now or more that want to realize a fantasy to be taken by force, until it comes true and then disappear from the scene once they have lived out the fantasy and found out it is not as fun as they thought.  If anything their are more looking to live out sexual fantasies for a brief period

Yet there has never been a greater level of abuse in this knowledge of womens needs by Dom wannabes who
are just trying to cure some desperately dangerous
case of loneliness by following a fad to those who they
believe may be just as desperate. What a dangerous
mix that is huh ?

Yes, to many it is just living out a sexual fantasy  they have no serious commitment to the lifestyle for many on both sides of the coin a fantasy role play with expectations of instant gratification with bothering to educate themselves, therefore outcomes are not always positive

Just as poisonous is that there are so many so called
subs out there with the sneaky intent to Top from the
bottom with their insistence to promote the one side
being a bigger/better/only gift on the table of
consideration. It is a rude awakening when they realize
otherwise.
Is is nothing new this has always existed, the bigger /better philosphy exists in the vanilla world as well


A Real Dom knows this psychological ploy.
He won't be fooled and walk away from any such attempt identified.
There are so many subs these days top from the
bottom because of the fact that they know there are
so many panty waste Dom wannabes out there that
they can get away with it.
Chances are? You're one of either ?

The topping from the bottom term is used way to often more often than not it is nothing more than 2 unmatched partners who have different wants and needs ....there would be less dominants complaining of this problem is they spent more time communicationing and being selective in choosing  someone with similiar interests amd goal  instead of rushing to get their whips and paddles out and trying to force someone to fit into your mold

The Dom is to be Dom enough to understand that
they are to be the one with the ultimate control.
Unfortunately there is a severe shortage of
Real Male Doms out there who are truly able to
create a real submissive women.

A dom only has a much control over me as I allow him to have...I don't give over control of my children or granchildren , my finances, my business, he cannot make me relocate if I have no desire or have not agreed to, he will order me to quit my job and  throw away the 18 years I have worked toward my retirement pension.  He cannot order me to stay with him if he does satisfy my needs and wants, He cannot order me to do something I find morally unethical or offensive.   Any Dom who believes  they have ultimate power over another being ....has a few more lessons to learn and probably should avoid calling themselves a "Real or Twue" Dom



Lumus -> RE: Wrong Presentation, but some good stuff (5/4/2008 10:00:12 AM)

Before I delve [and I'll reply to your comments, MoGa; if I wanted to disect the other OP again, I'd respond to his thread] , I want to start with

*hugs*  Thanks.

To the post at hand, then.

The whole term 'gift', while I can appreciate it as "my trust, my placing of myself beneath you and giving myself to you with that trust established", otherwise vexes me as of late, mainly for overuse.  I would restructure the terminology and say that people can and may, over the course of the development of their mutual understanding, reach similar plateaus of appreciation and trust as dictated mainly by their interaction...nothing's guaranteed.  This goes back to a previous comment of mine, that it is a misleading ideal to expect that you will get out of things what you put into them.  On the whole, yes, some things must be earned; the what, how and why of it changes so wildly on interpersonal levels that I don't think it can be defined other than in a broad sense, which, sadly, invites niggling over the details.

I confess, I dislike the commentary on the whole "two-way street".  It cites an aspect we see, not the whole of things, and thus comes off too strong and ultimately inappropriate.  Sure, there's the fad aspect, anything that can be perceived as a game can and will inevitably be approached as such by some.  I wouldn't condemn the lifestyle for it.  Call it a natural consequence that has as much weight to it as you assign it.

Control is another one of those ephemeral things that the boards have nibbled on unsuccessfully.  There's just no one way to define how it's established, or the protocols thereof.  By the same token, real is subjective.  As for the creation of submission [or dominance, really], it can occur in the sense that something may be determined by examining it, where there was no examination before.  However, this lends credence to the concept that there's nothing there that didn't already exist.  It's the whole paradigm of actual invention versus discovery.  We invented the light bulb; we discovered North America.  Things that are wholly new, created from scratch, are pretty damned rare when contrasted with things that are 'merely' discovered.

Umm...as for wannabes...seen that on both sides of the fence.  I wouldn't target just one side.  I'd also note that the wannabes only get taken as seriously as they're allowed; and yes, there are times when we all but into the bullshit.  When you know the bullshit for what it is, make a mental note, move on - time is the only determining factor.  As for genetics...until the human mind is mapped out further, I doubt we're ready [let alone responsible enough] to genetically engineer anything.  Otherwise, it's all in the hands of random Mother Nature, so sure, it could exist.  Let me know when you find one...

Assuming that women are meant to be submissive is like assuming that men are meant to dominate.  Those concepts deserve equal value [for me, VALUE="0"].

The inherent dangers created by illusion are prevalent everywhere; I'd blame TV before I blame the wannabes, if we want to overgeneralize.  [I'd apply that to both sides of the kneel; note, learn, move on...harsh, but accurate.]

I've experienced power dynamic fluctuations, myself; however, vying for control isn't really an option in the end.  I think of the results as pretermined and as-yet undiscovered [see above].

Personally, I didn't take the other OP all that seriously; I couldn't, his views were too opposed to my own, and I could not break them down far enough to appreciate them in any rational manner.  Again - personal assignment to what we value makes us who we are.  Debating who is right, and validating what degree a person applies towards any one thing, is wholly too subjective.

I did discuss his concept of Dommes on his thread; I hope you read and appreciated them. [:)]

Well, I'm out for now; sorry if I rushed this a bit, I'm off to see my son.  [YAY!]  I hope I've addressed these points in a reasonable manner; and please reply with any thoughts of your own.

*outtie*






MladyHathor -> RE: Wrong Presentation, but some good stuff (5/4/2008 1:22:12 PM)

Yes My Darling, it is so hard to find the right words and not to generalize and express how one sees things---I am pleased though in all to see you feeling better and as always posting things that make Me go back and forth and really dig for My responses--I just adore you!  



DesFIP -> RE: Wrong Presentation, but some good stuff (5/4/2008 3:33:47 PM)

About wanting to submit or wanting someone to submit. Of course it's a two way street. We each get to decide who we are interested in and we are all free to reject anyone we don't like. No difference here from anywhere else, nothing special BDSMwise here that I can see.

What he called fakes and deceptives I call intelligent and strong people not willing to do things they know they aren't ready for. And in my book, smart and strong people negotiate play time to not have a bad result. The original op seemed to be saying that anyone who set limits was a fake, interested in this for a fad. However he then started nattering on about all those so-called bad doms going around abusing subs. There's a direct contradiction there. If I set limits I'm a fake, yet if I don't set limits I get hurt and he's a bad guy. IMO Neither is true. When I set limits I am doing what is needed to protect myself physically and mentally. By me setting these limits he knows what isn't safe or healthy for me and therefore won't accidentally do something that might be fine for someone else but is bad for me. He isn't a mindreader, I have to tell him what I can and can't do, and that includes on a daily basis.

When I tell him that today I can't have my head hanging off the bed during a bj, I am not tftb. Instead I'm sharing with him that my vertigo is acting up and by skipping that activity today, I may be able to do it tomorrow. Whereas if I didn't tell him, I'd be sick for four or five days and of no use to him that whole time. And he'd be rightfully pissed off at me for not mentioning the problem ahead of time. But I'm not a deceptive fake by telling him I can't do it. And he wouldn't be an abusive s.o.b. if he put me in that position unknowingly.

And that was my objection to the whole original post. It set up false dichotimies where they don't exist. It announced that any sub who set any limit whether on the first meet or after ten years together was being deliberately deceptive, and that any dom who didn't magically know how the sub was feeling without being told was an abuser. And that's all just so much manure, in my book.



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