RE: Zero Sum Game?

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Zero Sum Game?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Zero Sum Game?

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 7:37:07 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

It's not a 'zero sum game' because ideally the individual 'scores' give way to a team effort.

Taken outside the context of 'play' - role-play or scene; 'punishment', or the cause/need of punishment, should be viewed as failure. Implementation should be as difficult to experience to the punisher as it is to the punished; because it represents a failure in the relationship.

Similarly there should be no feeling of insecurity if your relationship standard doesn't match up to someone else. You should go into a relationship with enough self confidence to bring your own standard and 'dogma' that makes you and your partner happy and content. A 'score' not only becomes immaterial with each other, but with others. It is a representation of the sum of the two parts being greater than the raw total of the individual parts. There is a good reason for that. Without a complimentary partner, regardless of your 'score' you aren't 'winning'.

After finding and joining with a partner, if you are keeping an individual score you'll relationship will ultimately lose and the sum will be zero.

quote:

I am tired and this isn't perhaps as clear as it should be but there it is.

Ahh, Michael - sounds like you had a GREAT weekend huh? Good for you guys! See you in June.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 21

RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 7:37:48 AM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Some people prefer not winning.

Can you expand that a bit?

Everyone's heard the phrase "fear of failure." I have also seen a lot of "fear of success." The fantasy is better than the real-life human being who comes with surprises, criticisms and flaws. Or -- I am only willing to do what I am comfortable doing, regardless of goal.

You must have seen this, even in woodworking. "I know how to use a bullnose and a planer, so that's what I'm going to use," instead of keeping the OBJECTIVE in mind at all times, and doing whatever it takes, big or small, to create a functional work of art.

Lots of people have not yet gotten tired of losing.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 22

RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 8:45:49 AM

Leatherist

Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline

Agreed.

Insecurity is not power.

Too many think of what they want-not enough of what they give. I blame consumerism.

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 23

RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 9:04:42 AM

Missokyst

Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline

But Michael...
If people look at things like that and communicate their needs.. how can they think that this stuff we do is the magical cure for all their ills?
That would make it like a relationship, where both partners might have needs. That would mean that someone may not be quite as selfless as they want to show they are. Or that someone cannot intuitively read their minds and know when some thing is not working.
My goodness, that would mean that we are human!
Holy smokes, what a concept.

Kyst

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 24

RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 12:44:32 PM

StrangerThan

Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

ANDI FUCKS UP ALMOST DAILY!!! This is NOT an exageration, But we are working on it. Why?? Well because SHE IS FUCKING WORTH MY TIME, That is why we started dating in the first place. You see I finally cared about something more that I cared about myself and to this day that has made all the difference.

Some of the best words I've read in a long time. This lifestyle is about people. All the toys are just that, toys, regardless of whether it's the finest piece of leather in the world or the prettiest collar in the world. None of it means shit without the people who come together to make it work between them.

Because she is fucking worth my time.... What else needs to be said?

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 25

RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 1:58:20 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah
First off, No one here no matter how experienced can speak for someone else because the Dynamic is different, which means all you arrogant types will stop reading now and start to make your comments based on this one sentence.

Your constant claim to humility and non-superiority would seem more true if you wouldn't spend so much of your posts referencing your self enlightment, preaching, and bashing unnamed masses of people who clearly aren't as superior as you in your non-superiority.

There's my one comment. I hope it was constructive for you..

To the OP...

Thanks for something to think about.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 26

RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 2:29:06 PM

hejira92

Posts: 2272
Joined: 10/27/2005
From: Palm Beach County, Fl
Status: offline

I agree that "point-keeping" is totally counter-productive to intimacy and trust. Unfortunately, I see it all too often (D/s and vanilla).

The paradigm I like to use for a healthy relationship is the "love bucket". I forget what book this comes from.

Everyone has a love bucket that they are trying to fill (think needs- love, intimacy, trust, caring, companionship, etc.). The unhealthy couple says to one another "Fill me up! Fulfill my needs and then I'll give to you!" They demand and are never happy.

The healthy couple looks for ways to fulfill the other "How can I fill your love bucket today?" By thinking of the other's needs first, both get their needs met. This eliminates insecurity and the being taken for granted and complacency that can set in.

It kind of reminds me of the old saw about heaven and hell. Someone dies and gets to see hell. There is a huge banquet room, table loaded with food and delectibles, but no one is eating, As a matter of fact everyone is starving. Why? All the people have no elbows and cannot get the food to their mouths.

The next room is heaven. Same banquet, same food, same deformity- no elbows. But the people are happy, laughing, well fed. Why? They are feeding each other.

Relationships are about feeding each other. Keep points on the other and you all starve.

(Ok, I've now mixed about 3 different metaphors. I think I'm still recovering from the bondage tape, nipple clamps and clothes-pins from last night

. Sigh. Bucket Full.)

_____________________________

Property of Cuffkinks

Member:
The Pimpettes
MoGa's IN-Crowd

"You're the gleam in my eye, the smile on my face and the bulge in my pants" - Cuffkinks

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 27

RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 2:32:47 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

Relationships SHOULD be a team against all comers. Some teams have captains, some don't, but the point is that you should look to each other for support and feel that you only win if you all win.

It bears repeating......

_____________________________

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 28

RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 3:21:41 PM

TreasureKY

Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

... So many of the posts you can see the little score card each partner is keeping on who is getting what and collecting resentments along the way.

In Stephen Covey's book, "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People", he discusses the concept of an emotional bank account...

quote:

... When it comes to improving and maintaining our relationships with others, Stephen Covey’s metaphor of the Emotional Bank Account is probably one of the most powerful ideas ever created for the development of interpersonal relationships. If you’ve never heard of this, it basically means that anyone with whom we have a relationship with, whether it be our coworkers, family or friends, we maintain a personal “emotional” bank account with them. This account begins on a neutral balance. And just as with any bank account, we can make deposits and withdrawals. However, instead of dealing with units of monetary value, we deal with emotional units.

The emotional units that Covey speaks of are centered around trust. When we make emotional deposits into someone’s bank account, their fondness, trust, and confidence in us grows. And as a result our relationship develops and grows. If we can keep a positive reserve in our relationships, by making regular deposits, there will be greater tolerance for our mistakes and we’ll enjoy open communication with that person. On the contrary, when we make withdrawals and our balance becomes low or even overdrawn, bitterness, mistrust and discord develops. If we are to salvage the relationship, we must make a conscious effort to make regular deposits...

This idea is similar to the scorecard you've mentioned, though the scorecard sounds a bit more adversarial and promotes the idea of win/lose.

As far as the "emotional bank account" concept, I agree with it on the whole, but I've found that when it comes to developing an intimate partnership with someone, it works better to leave behind the idea of having a personal "emotional bank account" and develop a joint account instead. Each partner has an equal vested interest in the well-being of the account and as a team, both partners should strive to make deposits to keep the relationship's balance healthy.

It takes the win/lose idea and changes it into win/win.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 29

RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 4:12:25 PM

Prinsexx

Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

Perfectly clear to me, Michael...and a very good point. But, you have to realize that most people operate on a day to day basis from a base of fear. Most of what they do, they do because they are working to reassure themselves they are of value....at another's expense.

Master Fire

This I absolutely have empathy with.
Most of, if not all of. my early socialisation: parents, family, teachers, school, religion (or rather absence of because that was such a totalitarian system I just refused to go), early jobs and even higher education, was COMPETITIVE NOT CO-OPERATIVE.
Now I do believe bdsm power exchange differs fundamentally from thsoe early enforced socialisation patterns and so my desires in sexuality I call my sexual politics. I am, by my own score, a feminist slave....I know I get my sense of power from serving/submitting BUT it is only a sense of power IF my service/submsiion is also valued by my partner....otherwise well I just may as well play by myself.
I came away from the previous relationship knowing that I constantly had a feeling that 'it' (my status) wasn't enough, what I did wasn't enough, who I was wasn't enough. Now if at any point there had been healing along with the pain, if there had been praise along with the punishment, or recognition/joy/emotional connection love even? of me, for who and what I was, then I could have sustained it. But NO. It simply reminded me, it simply aped, well it simply was reminiscent of power over, fuck overs, knowing-better-overs, authority over me.
Strangely enough he phoned me last week. feeling very depressed. It was a conversation about how he felt!!! Remarkable as for the first time there seemed to be a feeling human being emerging BUT it was a conversation outside the dynamic which I had freed myself from.
What he didn't realise was that he wasn't losing face by admitting to feeling depressed. I felt real pleasure that, as a friends, he phoned me. but there was no sense of him saying he had phoned me either because he felt depressed because I was no longer serving him, or that he felt depressed because he was missing me. Just a 'I feel' call. It was again like I have the right to phone you anytime I want and tell you how I feel (but I will never answer the phone ifyou call me). It was still part of the scoring game. I have stopped playing.
What I have to maker sure of is that I don't blame him for being an 'unexpected' or worse still blame others because blaming him didn't change him and didn't get me anywhere.
Which brings me back to the beginning again which is: it's very difficult not to get pulled back into those early roles I learned when we were kids and tryimg to survive against a world that felt as if everyone else knew better.
Paradoxically those who are on the outside of any relationship based on bdsm as power exchange least see its greatest potential as sexual politics and when I say that I mean sexual revolutionary politics outside of the no-win power struggle that the world at large survives upon.

_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 30

RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 7:42:31 PM

derfrewop

Posts: 74
Joined: 5/10/2007
From: Vancouver
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

It's not a zero-sum game, but it is a prisoner's dilemna metagame....So you pretty much have to trust that both partners will NEVER see a reason to defect - which is not going to happen - which ITSELF is a reason to defect, which is one of the reasons WHY it's not going to happen. So what do you do?

Heres your true dichotomy, you are using logic on an emotional problem. People are not logical. People are the sum of genetics plus everything that has happened to them plus what they have learned plus the rules they have made up to help them cope. They have no chance of ever accurately communicating the meaning to others of something simple like the color red . The multilayed meanings of something complicated like "do you enjoy anal sex?" are completely beyond logic.

Yet somehow, beyond all logic, people can connect.

For me, the formula has always been to be myself as completely as I can and always strive to find the unexplainable spark of magical sensible nonsense that fills all of the space where a person stands.

It only requires one person in a relationship to reject the zero sum game for the relationship to survive and prosper. But only if the one who is not keeping score is honestly convinced of the worth of the player and can also honestly see that the player can learn to stop if given a real life example. A submissive can keep score without permanently harming a relationship because the Dom can always lead by example to teach that it is not a competition between them. A Dom who keeps score isn't much of a Dom in my book, its not about accounting, its about getting where you are going. Which after all is supposed to be about the exploration of the connection you have with the most incredibly fascinating thing in the whole universe: the person you are with.

_____________________________

I only flog good girls. I don't reward bad behavior.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

Post #: 31

RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 9:06:50 PM

TemptingNviceSub

Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline

Nice sentiment, and makes perfect sense....point is that the relationship you describe is most certainly doable if both work,think and react in just that way..sad thing is that many a time only one may be trying to do just that, while the other is still in ME mode and not US mode.I see in many of my friends relationship the score card mentality, you can just see the destruction and the weariness that it creates...then I look at my parents relationship of 57 years, the good and bad times..and always..it was them together working hard every single damn day to keep this marriage viable,happy,it was them against the world..and to my eyes they always won because no matter what life threw at them, they came out of it together, stronger and whole and still in love...but you see my mother confided to me that marriage was the hardest job in the world, but well worth the effort, and to pay attention to the littlest things for they seem to matter the most in the long run....Tempting

_____________________________

I have greatly enjoyed the second blooming...suddenly you find at the age of 50, that a whole new life has opened before you.........Agatha Christie.

You must make tracks into the unknown~~Thoreau

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 32

RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 9:26:56 PM

Leatherist

Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline

The best relationships come when you begin thinking of the accomplishments that WE made together-not individually.

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)

Post #: 33

RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/11/2008 11:02:31 AM

UncleNasty

Posts: 1108
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I read the greatest little thing yesterday, and oddly enough, I see it applying here. Rather simple. really. It went something like this: "Love is a strange game. Either both people win or nobody does."

LP, that is wonderfull.

I talk with people about the competitive attitude some have in regard to love and relationshisps. That doesn't work for me. In competition someone always looses, and in that both people loose. Unfortunately I've been on both sides of that kind of loss. Your phrase is more of "glass half full" perspective on the same thing.

My profile speaks of love needing to not be a competion. And my journal has an entry about how we respond to others (not just our lover/partner but anyone): Are our responses in support, or retort? The retort/support question and comparison is so quick and easy to make - I utilize it frequently. It has had a major impact on the thins I say to others, the ways I say them, and the ways we get along. All good.

Also a quote from a friend of mine that I love: Noncompetitive responses are worth their weight in gold.

So I love your phrase. I plan on using it too.

Uncle Nasty

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 34

RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/11/2008 2:30:55 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

What many people don't realize is that neither they nor their partner should come first, what is best for the relationship is what comes first. Hopefully what is best for the relationship is what is best for both of you, most of the time I find that to be the truth but sometimes either or both of us must sacrifice something for the health of the relationship.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 35

RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/11/2008 7:13:52 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

actually Michael, I found it rather clear.

I think the only scorecard should be for the Relationship.

We did well on this... but We did not do so well here. For me... We make choices for the betterment of the relationship. sometimes we don't do so well... it doesn't matter who... because it's always WE.

My family motto... "The Three are ONE.... and that ONE is US" We do what is best for us...

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 5/11/2008 7:20:58 PM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 36

RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/11/2008 7:22:57 PM

Leatherist

Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline

And I bet you are the only "alpha" in the triad as well, am I correct?

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 37

RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/11/2008 7:26:57 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

And I bet you are the only "alpha" in the triad as well, am I correct?

define Alpha.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Leatherist)

Post #: 38

RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/11/2008 7:35:46 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I read the greatest little thing yesterday, and oddly enough, I see it applying here. Rather simple. really. It went something like this: "Love is a strange game. Either both people win or nobody does."

LP, that is wonderfull.

I talk with people about the competitive attitude some have in regard to love and relationshisps. That doesn't work for me. In competition someone always looses, and in that both people loose. Unfortunately I've been on both sides of that kind of loss. Your phrase is more of "glass half full" perspective on the same thing.

My profile speaks of love needing to not be a competion. And my journal has an entry about how we respond to others (not just our lover/partner but anyone): Are our responses in support, or retort? The retort/support question and comparison is so quick and easy to make - I utilize it frequently. It has had a major impact on the thins I say to others, the ways I say them, and the ways we get along. All good.

Also a quote from a friend of mine that I love: Noncompetitive responses are worth their weight in gold.

So I love your phrase. I plan on using it too.

Uncle Nasty

Uncle N, thank you. I wish I could take credit for writing it, but I didn't.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to UncleNasty)

Post #: 39

RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/11/2008 7:37:27 PM

Leatherist

Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

And I bet you are the only "alpha" in the triad as well, am I correct?

define Alpha.

You don't have a girl designated as "first"

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 40

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Zero Sum Game?

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.109