Race and BDSM

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Voltare -> Race and BDSM (7/22/2004 9:36:01 AM)
I'll prefece this post, by saying I know that race is a delicate and hot issue. It's almost as volitile an issue as abortion, and I have no intention of engaging in a flame war for what I'm about to say. I respectfully request that anyone who chooses to respond to my post here, to do so without the use of profanity or inciteful language. Agree, or disagree - it's just a message board. I am a white male dominant 27 years of age, who grea up in a small, mostly white town. I have worked with people of many different races, colors, and religions most of my adult life, and while my personal views may appear to kowtow towards the politically correct center, I believe in them VERY strongly. An announcement regarding a real time group that meets weekly was immediately responded to by a rather aggressive post regarding the idea that there would be a BDSM group for people of color. I did not see anywhere in the announcement or website that specifically excluded whites (or other races) and, in fact, language to the effect that anyone who wished to join was welcome was included, and specifically stated you do not need to be black or hispanic to post in their newsgroup. I think there are a few issues at hand. The first, is the concern for racism, and reverse discrimination in the lifestyle. The specific announcement did not appear to be racist in nature, but rather an offer for those who have an interest in issues that specifically affect people of color to get together to talk about the issues. Pretending race does not play a role in BDSM roles, titels, or beliefs, to me, is a lot like putting a bag over your head. I believe race DOES play a role - positively and negativel. Last night, I was speaking to a white sub with a black dominant, who stated she loved the contrast in their skin colors, that it was quite erotic to her. Also, she felt more comfortable with black men, because she (in her words) had a big butt, and felt black men appreciated it more. On the other hand, the stigma of using the words 'master' or 'slave' - for obvious reasons - is worthy of discussion. I know of black women who enjoy the kink behind such racial degradation, and I know of black women who absolutely cannot tolerate the thought of calling a man Master. I see more then a few profiles advertising looking specifically for black Dominants, and equally as many seeking only a white Dominant. Obviously the combinations are endless. The second issue, in my mind, is that of racism in general, and the sense that promoting one racial, ethnic, or cultural event somehow precludes the celebration or appreciation of any other group - that by celebrating black history month or hispanic history month, we are somehow discriminating against caucasians. Personally, I don't see this as discrimination. I think any 'theme' that encourages people to learn about other types of people are fine. We have Polish fetivals, Irish parades, and celebrate english holidays to boot. In the town I grew up in, we celebrated "Danish Festival" yet it didn't matter what race you were, to enjoy the theme. The belief that celebrating one groups heritage somehow results in discrimination or exclusion of other races is where I see there misunderstanding. It's the militans, radicals, and other abusers of power on both sides of the racial card that perpetuate this sense of 'hate' if you ask me, because creating this sense of fear and paranoia is what perpetuates these people's power. I think any group that encourages people to learn more about the lifestyle is excellent. I can certainly imagine individuals who might not feel comfortable going to a typical munch, for fear of being the only black person there and being singled out (or worse) but would be more willing to attend a group specifically meeting their needs (and concerns.) I don't see growth as a bad thing, so long as the groups involved do not advocate discrimination. In this particular case, all I see is a group that seems to be committed to education and enjoyment of everyone who chooses to attend their gatherings. Stephan

GoddessJules -> RE: Race and BDSM (7/22/2004 9:43:52 AM)
Voltare, I read the post that moved you to write this particular one, and I'd like to offer to the people who find such groups offensive a perspective from a black Domina. . .Me: This is by no means a "flame" . . .but I think you are missing the whole point. It is not as if this group is trying to be "sexclusive." I think that all people involved in the lifestyle actively know that there aren't many people of color represented. I, for one, have felt like pepper in a sea of salt many times. Not that I'm looking to place blame of say that it is a bad situation. . .it is just how it is. With that being said, I find myself hard pressed to find Sistas and Brothas in the lifestyle without these types of groups and functions. I believe that within our interests in BDSM, some of us have "sub interests" that go under that blanket. For instance, some people like FemDom, some are spanking enthusiasts ( and we all know how "elitist" they can get! chuckles) I'd also like to point out that even when I attend events that are "for people of color," many times the "people of color" are still in the minority. Like the previous post stated, it is for Adult People of Color and the people who love them. People of color attent to meet people who will enjoy them for who they are. . .and others come to enjoy them. I believe in that context, no one would really find it offensive. Despite what the name of the group "sounds like" or "feels like". . . .everyone is welcome. That is my 10 cents. ~Goddess~

ScorpioMaster -> RE: Race and BDSM (7/22/2004 9:57:34 AM)
I read your message and I think we should be at a time in society we should look past one race. I my self love all women and will past the differences. I do understand the number of people in this lifestyle could be limited if you are the only one from your race. I feel this lifestyle should be the one place that should transcend all barriers. I do understand one desire to be comfortable with who they are and being the one who stands out. If we start to create groups that do not include every one then we are missing the point accepting those who they are as them selves. Were I live there is a Gay leather scene that has open it self up to every one. This is the first step creating equality for every one. I am straight but accept them for who they are. I know being gay is completely different when it comes to race but it is the best example of a differences coming together as one. ScorpioMaster

LadyShoshin -> RE: Race and BDSM (7/22/2004 10:04:18 AM)
I see no problem with people of color having their own munch. Years ago when a Domme and 2 male subs started a munch only for Dommes and male subs, there was a huge uproar about splintering the community. There were a lot of bad feelings created, but the munch has gone ahead and every month new people come out, it is a large munch with anywhere from 50 to 80 in attendance. Since the munch started I have noticed more Domme/male sub attendance at our pansexual parties, more of them playing. It seems that having the place to discuss Domme/male sub issues freely has given more people who felt like second class citizens in the community the empowerment to declare themselves and to hell with what anyone else thinks. So kudos to those who are making this new munch happen, I wish them every success!!

Voltare -> RE: Race and BDSM (7/22/2004 10:14:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ScorpioMaster If we start to create groups that do not include every one then we are missing the point accepting those who they are as them selves. That's my point. A minute of clicking on their site and reading their rules, made it apparent that this munch and group are open for people of all colors and races. By the same token, why is race so much different then - say - sexuality? We have strictly lesbian and strictly gay communities, yet nobody claims they are discriminating by not permitting memebers of the opposite sex to participate. Everyone, to some degree, discriminates. I won't be friends with just anyone off the street. They have to earn my trust, and show me that they will give something positive to my life. I don't keep friends who continuously abuse my trust or friendship. Nobody suggests I should go out and find friends who are black, by virtue of being black, or that I go find friends who are jew, by virtue of being jewish. Just a few thoughts. Stephan

MistressDREAD -> RE: Race and BDSM (8/2/2004 5:18:11 AM)
Race and BDSM I think this issue goes way deaper then whats being discussed here. Being sumone whom has traveled on a more international leval in BDSM then simply experianceing BDSM in the US and being that in the World today there still exsists a disapropreate amount of people of color not to mention Woman and children whom are still in the bounds of unconcensual slavery thru out their lifes this is where many whom are of a Race that has not had to experiance such issues with in the last 100 years or so till present day cannot possibly understand nor associate with such issues that people of color address with being in a Lifestyle that for the most part is looked apon as going back in tiime for the majority of its people as well. Of course there is always the desire to meet sumone of likeness which makes for sub groups of Cultures such as Our or any Culture group. There is a double defence that one whom is BDSM and a Race of color that must be fought for acceptance and not just the issue of the Lifestyle its self. This is true for those of same sex and Living with in the lifestyle another Double jepordy as there are many more defences that must be lived in and experianced. Of course all with in BDSM should be accepted by all but reality does not deal that kind of cards here. I have had no less then 60 emails send to Me that were racially bigoted towards Me and that tells Me that there are a heck of a lot of Racist BDSMers right here on Collarme. Do I like or accept it ? of course not. but it is a reality none the less. How many White Men or Woman have had emails send to them that showed Them hate for their race here?? Im currious........ I have also in the US been invited to a BDSM party where I was the only black person and ended up leaving it in a hurry because those whom were at the party had been racist and the freind whom was a freind of the freind I went with had no clue of the others there and thought that it was acceptable and found that My presance was not when I arrived. I left the party at the end of a gun when it was all said and done for My Own saftey and this was a publicly advertized party in the south. So situations for those of Us whom are not white happen and it is those few instances that We experiance and hope that others like Us do not and can only educate those like Us in what to watch out for and what to do in these situations to protect Our selfs and that is how the real world is today for those of Us of color. How many of You that are white have attended a BDSM Party and had to leave by the end of a gun because those at the party felt you were not allowed there because of your race? Truth Be told I never experianced Raceizzums first hand till I came to the USA. I think that says alot about a place that fights for equality but falls far short of providing it and I came from a place where I was the only light person and I was concidered the minoritiy as most all in My Country were not My color but never felt predudice against. I personally prefer the Groups where all mix but the reality of that being the norm has not reached modern society yet. We are getting there......30 years ago I nor any of My Family were allowed in certain private BDSM Societys We now belong to because of Our race. Of course We were just beginning to be allowed to drink from a public water spicket then too with out recorse or harrasment. I know those whom are younger then 40 would not know of such things first hand but there are many whom do. JMO Oh yes Im well aware that I am politically incorrect for even mentioning these facts. BITE ME!

iwillserveu -> RE: Race and BDSM (8/2/2004 3:55:35 PM)
Whenever I race I lose.[:(] Spreaderbars are like that.[:)] Ok, now I'll actually read the thread.

iwillserveu -> RE: Race and BDSM (8/2/2004 4:07:50 PM)
quote: I think any 'theme' that encourages people to learn about other types of people are fine. We have Polish fetivals, Irish parades, and celebrate english holidays to boot One knock on blacks, (or African-Americans or whatever youse want be called by a mic) is there stuff is boring. Polish festivals have keilbasa. Irish things allow everyone to get drunk. For blacks you have a screening of X followed by listening to the I have a dream speech followed by a lecture on George Washington Carver and Harriet Tubman or Fredrick Douglas. The one interseting thing, Kwanza, is going to smash its head to death against the commerciality we know as Christmas. Sorry for the rant.

iwillserveu -> RE: Race and BDSM (8/2/2004 4:17:24 PM)
GoddessJules, My perspective is biased in my searching is limited to Dominas. I've noticed that black Dominas seem to be about 10% of the Dominas out there. Does that line up with the general population? I think blacks (or whatever the PC du jour term is) are closer to 30%, but I might be remembering wrong. In anycase it does not effect YOUR fellings. Even if it was reverse racism, so? (I'm not saying it is, I'm saying "so what" to a hypothetical.) If Goddess Jules or someone wanter a place where they don't feel quote: like pepper in a sea of salt who the hell thinks it is OK to tell her not to, please, for the humanity, please!

GoddessJules -> RE: Race and BDSM (8/2/2004 4:41:18 PM)
I think that balck will be underrepresented in BDSM simply because there is a "stigma" in the black community for being "too kinky." My friends know what I do, and they don't have a problem with it per se. . .as long as I don't go into the minutae. I believe they are actually disgusted by it. ~Jules~

Sinergy -> RE: Race and BDSM (8/2/2004 6:46:20 PM)
quote: Truth Be told I never experianced Raceizzums first hand till I came to the USA. Hello, From my perspective, this does not surprise me at all. hoses off the rabid patriot act jingoists The United States historically has much deeper racial issues than our European cousins. For example, the Father Of Freeing The Slaves, Abraham Lincoln, only actually freed the slaves when Europe refused to support his war (which was economic, not racially based) with the seceding southern states unless he freed the slaves. So he freed the slaves, but only in the parts of the country who were actively in rebellion. Not everywhere until later in the war. In the Netherlands, prostitution is legal and accepted as an aspect of their country. Those who provide the service are treated decently, have a union, get benefits, and regular checkups. Yet in the United States one sees this double standard of a) wanting to have prostitutes and b) wanting to pretend we dont. In England many of the people have spouses, mistresses/misters, etc., and everybody is much more open about sex and sexuality. Here in the United States there tends to be this neo-puritan idea that sex is bad, adultery is bad, kink is bad, but it if we never admit it happens we are all ok. Personally, I think a lot of it is a built in intolerance to difference that is an aspect of US culture stretching back to our earliest ancestors fleeing Europe NOT because they were not tolerated, but because their intolerance was not tolerated. Just me, could be wrong, but there you go. Sinergy

jillwfsub4blkdom -> RE: Race and BDSM (8/2/2004 9:09:31 PM)
i have joined online BDSM groups for people of color and have never felt ostracized in them. i also can understand why there is a need for them too. jill

Estring -> RE: Race and BDSM (8/2/2004 11:07:48 PM)
quote: From my perspective, this does not surprise me at all. hoses off the rabid patriot act jingoists The United States historically has much deeper racial issues than our European cousins. You have to be kidding. Our European cousins who killed at least 6 million Jews? Our European cousins who still practice Anti-Semitism in many of the countries there? Our European cousins who do much immigrant bashing? Our European cousins who are killing each other in Bosnia? And does it really matter what the real reason Lincoln freed the slaves was? He still did it at great peril to himself. And destroyed an evil institution in the process. The results are all that matter.

jillwfsub4blkdom -> RE: Race and BDSM (8/2/2004 11:15:09 PM)
Estring, i think it is important that people do remember that Lincoln didn't free the slaves because of any religious or moral issues. It makes a huge difference in regards to how people view him. jill

Estring -> RE: Race and BDSM (8/2/2004 11:41:17 PM)
Why should that make a difference? We have so many politicians who won't wipe their ass if they think it will cost them votes. Lincoln did a great service at great risk to himself. His decision was not a popular one. And lest we forget, he was assasinated because people were angry at him. I care about results. Many good intentions have resulted in horrible results. I happen to believe that part of Lincolns' decision was because of his revulsion to slavery. But whatever the motivation, the results helped many people.

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