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Spanish Flu - 10/20/2005 7:23:50 PM   
LaMalinche


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http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,3605,1585977,00.html

US scientists have succeeded in resurrecting The Spanish Flu - the flu that killed an estimated 50 million people and has not been seen on the planet for 85 years. Think of a real world example of the science of Jurrasic Park. They then published its genome.

This means that anyone wanting to biological terrorism could (for large sums of money) order up its DNA sequence from a commercial laboratory and start a new epidemic.

On the other hand scientists are learning a lot about the Bird Flu that as killed 60 in Asia.

So, what are the thoughts - do we face a new epidemic of the Spanish Flu or will scientists get the Bird Flu under control before the predicted pandemic occurs?
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RE: Spanish Flu - 10/20/2005 9:22:20 PM   
ModeratorOne


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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/13/AR2005101301783.html

Here is part of Krauthammers column on it. You can find the rest at the above link.

quote:

Now that I have your attention, consider, with appropriate trepidation, the third element of this story: What to do with this knowledge? Not only has the virus been physically re-created, but its entire genome has also now been published for the whole world, good people and very bad, to see.

The decision to publish was a very close call, terrifyingly close.

On the one hand, we need the knowledge disseminated. We've learned from this research that the 1918 flu was bird flu, "the most bird-like of all mammalian flu viruses," says Jeffery Taubenberger, lead researcher in unraveling the genome. There is a bird flu epidemic right now in Asia that has infected 117 people and killed 60. It has already developed a few of the genomic changes that permit transmission to humans. Therefore, you want to put out the knowledge of the structure of the 1918 flu, which made the full jump from birds to humans, so that every researcher in the world can immediately start looking for ways to anticipate, monitor, prevent and counteract similar changes in today's bird flu.

We are essentially in a life-or-death race with the bird flu. Can we figure out how to preempt it before it figures out how to evolve into a transmittable form with 1918 lethality that will decimate humanity? To run that race we need the genetic sequence universally known -- not just to inform and guide but to galvanize new research.

On the other hand, resurrection of the virus and publication of its structure open the gates of hell. Anybody, bad guys included, can now create it. Biological knowledge is far easier to acquire for Osama bin Laden and friends than nuclear knowledge. And if you can't make this stuff yourself, you can simply order up DNA sequences from commercial laboratories around the world that will make it and ship it to you on demand. Taubenberger himself admits that "the technology is available."

And if the bad guys can't make the flu themselves, they could try to steal it. That's not easy. But the incentive to do so from a secure facility could not be greater. Nature, which published the full genome sequence, cites Rutgers bacteriologist Richard Ebright as warning that there is a significant risk "verging on inevitability" of accidental release into the human population or of theft by a "disgruntled, disturbed or extremist laboratory employee."

Why try to steal loose nukes in Russia? A nuke can only destroy a city. The flu virus, properly evolved, is potentially a destroyer of civilizations.

We might have just given it to our enemies.

Have a nice day.

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RE: Spanish Flu - 10/20/2005 11:37:34 PM   
FangsNfeet


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You became a member of Collarme.com just to make a post about a virus very few give a damn about?

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RE: Spanish Flu - 10/21/2005 1:21:38 AM   
LaMalinche


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No, I have been reading CM for a while without becoming a member. I just thought that the idea of possible good versus possible pandemic might be an interesting discussion.

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RE: Spanish Flu - 10/21/2005 3:58:58 AM   
darkinshadows


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Well, Fangs - not 'giving a damn' is how all this occurs in the first place and is rather naive. Good to know which table you sit at though.

Peace and Love


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RE: Spanish Flu - 10/21/2005 4:50:23 AM   
frenchpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

Well, Fangs - not 'giving a damn' is how all this occurs in the first place and is rather naive. Good to know which table you sit at though.

Peace and Love

Fangs was a bit extreme, but I also think that the people who say that there's going to be millions of people killed by the H5N1 are either stupid or just trying to advertise for tamiflu ( (R) Roche ...). In 1918 the conditions were absolutely perfect for H1N1 to spread. The comparison is stupid; Since this time medicine and hygiene have progressed a lot, and the dynamics of epidemies have been studied. My only concern is about all the chickens that are being killed and the farmers who will be affected, not that this epidemy could kill more people than tobacco, malaria, hunger, cars, AIDS or alcohol kills on a single day.

Seriously, when I see that some people claim the epidemy will kill 100 million people (I even saw that a report claimed 1 billion), I'm really wondering what's the point of such stupid estimates... selling paper ?
I'm really much more worried about the fact that rich countries are not doing what they could to stop hunger and malaria in most countries than about H5N1. Note that Bill Gates alone probably did more than any country, against malaria ($100M...and I'm really not a big M$ fan).

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RE: Spanish Flu - 10/21/2005 5:48:09 AM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: frenchpet
Seriously, when I see that some people claim the epidemy will kill 100 million people (I even saw that a report claimed 1 billion), I'm really wondering what's the point of such stupid estimates... selling paper ?


In a recent South Park episode, there was a flood after a beaver dam was broken and they had a great segment with a "newsman" saying something like "Estimates are there are hundreds of thousands drowned in this little community of 7,000 souls."

As a former journalist and rabid disadmirer of TV "news" it cracked me up.

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RE: Spanish Flu - 10/21/2005 5:36:42 PM   
WickedKev


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AH AH AH AH AH Cluck

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RE: Spanish Flu - 10/22/2005 6:43:16 AM   
mystictryst


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I work at an R&D facility, one our business units specializes in this type of issue...

At lunch this past week, we were discussing it. What the major concern about is if the H5N1 mutates so that it can be easily transmitted from human to human... I believe it was mentioned that the mutation is starting, however, it is unclear if it will fully develop into the much feared pandemic.

One interesting point of note was that the 1918 flu spread around the world in three weeks, which I found amazing. It is estimated that if the full mutation of the bird flu happens, it could be world wide in 3 days.


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RE: Spanish Flu - 10/22/2005 5:14:37 PM   
somewhatsub


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The 1918 flu was able to spread so quickly through Europe because of wartime conditions--stress, famine, and lack of medical care. It spread even more quickly through the military because they had all of those conditions in spades along with exhaustion, crowding, and lack of proper shelter. Americans were also more vulnerable because of poorer wartime nutition and stress. Most people who died did so from secondary infections--this was pre-penicillin.

We're in much better shape today in developed countries, so it is very unlikely to reach the severity of the early 20th century pandemic. It could certainly ravage the third world, though.

I do think the media is using it to sell papers and air time--just like the "10,000 dead" expected in New Orleans they were trumpeting. I also think the US government is trying to use it to further erode civil rights--there is talk of repealing the Posse Comittatus Act so that the military can police US citizens in the event of civil unrest. Wouldn't training as man soldiers as medics and being ready to set up as many MASH and DMORT teams as possible make more sense if they were expecting mass illness and deaths?

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RE: Spanish Flu - 10/22/2005 7:43:43 PM   
LaMalinche


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Could someone please explain what penicillian or any other antibiotic is supposed to do for a virus? I thought that they were anti-bacterial. Secondary infections, yes, but bird or spanish flu?

La Malinche

- or I could just be the dumb bunny here

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RE: Spanish Flu - 10/22/2005 9:17:05 PM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaMalinche

Could someone please explain what penicillian or any other antibiotic is supposed to do for a virus? I thought that they were anti-bacterial. Secondary infections, yes, but bird or spanish flu?

La Malinche

- or I could just be the dumb bunny here


I had that reaction too, but then I noticed that the poster seemed to be referring to opportunistic infections of the person who had the flu. Many of these, like tuberculosis, are bacterial and could be treated with antibiotics.

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