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Conditioning - 5/17/2008 3:15:00 AM

Queencie

Posts: 6
Joined: 11/20/2005
From: Israel
Status: offline

Ivan Pavlov's description on how animals (and humans) can be trained to respond in a certain way to a particular stimulus, has drawn a my interest for quite some time.

We have all heard about Pavlovian conditioning, where repeated presentation of a neutral stimulus evokes an innate, often reflexive, response.

In the past I have tried this when I conditioned the arousal of my submissive (even when he was chastized) to the scent of my perfume. The conditioning was performed by letting him smell my wrist and at the same time stimulating him sexually. Other activities we had did not involve direct sexual stimulation of him, or when it did it was always linked to the scent of my perfume.
After a short while his arousal was very obvious whenever I had my perfumed wrist (or in other cases, a piece of cloth) against his nose.

I wonder if such conditioning could have been taken further to have him, for example, orgasm in reaction to smell (or any other neural stimulli)…

Would others that experienced conditioning would you be kind enough to share their experiences and techniques?

Post #: 1

RE: Conditioning - 5/17/2008 3:23:24 AM

chezzy71

Posts: 412
Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline

I will answer this as best i can although it has never happened to me.I am very much into a fetish called handgagging or if you prefer,a hand clamped over the mouth during play.I have talked with other sub males who are big on this as well and from what i gather for some,they have an orgasm from the scent their partners are wearing along the wrists and also on a cloth when used during a chloroform fantasy.So it is very possible.

(in reply to Queencie)

Post #: 2

RE: Conditioning - 5/17/2008 7:24:06 AM

chamberqueen

Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline

I find that I can be immediately aroused by certain phrases, and have an almost instant orgasm to others (Cum for Daddy). However, in the case of orgasm, there has been some stimulation first - I can't just go from unaroused to orgasm.

There are many types of conditioned responses though. I know that if the paddle is taken to me that the area will next be rubbed. The number of strikes without the rub is growing, but my body knows the pleasant part is coming and starts to move in a way showing that it is ready to accept that longed for rub.

This can work both ways. One of my duties is to remove my Master's pants. He knows that when I do this I kneel in front of him, and as the pants are dropping I begin to please Him orally (my choice, not His command). Thus, even if I am to remove His pants within a minute of Him walking through the door, He is already as hard as a rock.

_____________________________

(in reply to chezzy71)

Post #: 3

RE: Conditioning - 5/17/2008 9:37:37 AM

TermsConditions

Posts: 446
Joined: 11/13/2007
Status: offline

This is a fascinating topic; stimulus / response condition is base and powerful. And the sense of smell is wired deep.

Many, perhaps most or even all, of us are far more conditioned to react to such stimulus than we would care to think or admit.

In the United States, for example, almost everyone is conditioned to stop at a red traffic signal. Or to not pass a school bus with stop sign extended. A police officer directing me to pass such a school bus had to resort to colorful language to get me to go against that conditioning.

The above are pedestrian examples. Sensory / sensuous / sexual conditioning would seem to have a much deeper capacity for control and direction.

Perfume can combine with an individuals own scent and chemistry resulting in an olfactory signature that is necessarily unique. Chanel is Chanel is Chanel. But Chanel on Michelle might differ from the resultant application to Molly.

I once totally screwed a calculus final in part because a young woman wearing the scent of an old girlfriend came in the room and sat behind me. After a brief struggle I had to excuse myself and take an incomplete until negotiations for a retake were successful.

That fragrance had not crossed my nostrils for 5 years prior and it still had the power to disarm. 20 years later I suspect it would still have a powerful effect.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Queencie

Ivan Pavlov's description on how animals (and humans) can be trained to respond in a certain way to a particular stimulus, has drawn a my interest for quite some time.

We have all heard about Pavlovian conditioning, where repeated presentation of a neutral stimulus evokes an innate, often reflexive, response.

In the past I have tried this when I conditioned the arousal of my submissive (even when he was chastized) to the scent of my perfume. The conditioning was performed by letting him smell my wrist and at the same time stimulating him sexually. Other activities we had did not involve direct sexual stimulation of him, or when it did it was always linked to the scent of my perfume.
After a short while his arousal was very obvious whenever I had my perfumed wrist (or in other cases, a piece of cloth) against his nose.

I wonder if such conditioning could have been taken further to have him, for example, orgasm in reaction to smell (or any other neural stimulli)…

Would others that experienced conditioning would you be kind enough to share their experiences and techniques?

_____________________________

TnC
Married, Novice Subbish-Type Person
and rider of the Drama Llama.

(in reply to Queencie)

Post #: 4

RE: Conditioning - 5/17/2008 4:24:48 PM

Queencie

Posts: 6
Joined: 11/20/2005
From: Israel
Status: offline

Thank you for your input and I appreciate your sharing of experience.

Chezzy the main difference of what you describe to the situation I was referring to is that you are referring to a fetish, which is directly linked to arousal, and therefore is not a form of conditioning. My guy didn't have a fetish to my (or any other's) perfume, not to the activity if smelling my wrist or perfumed cloth.
It was a reaction achieved thru this repeated activity of stimulation conditioning.

chamberqueen, thanks for sharing, you certainly made me realize something…
I always enjoy the alternation between applying pain (spanking, whipping, scratching, etc.) and gentle forms of touch like rubbing and caressing. I never looked it as conditioning, but come to think about it – it probably is, and could be at least part of the reason for my sissy-sub who does not consider himself as a pain-slut or a masochist to be aroused by my application of pain to him…

TermsConditions, what you described is very similar to what I was aiming to achieve with my guy (not that I hoped he'd fail calculus final, LOL), thanks for sharing. It is amazing however, how our memory works in that the stimulation and sensation was burnt in your memory unconsciously after so many years.

I'd love to read more of your experiences with conditioning!

(in reply to TermsConditions)

Post #: 5

RE: Conditioning - 5/18/2008 3:21:10 AM

chezzy71

Posts: 412
Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline

Oh contrare mein heir..my fetish has everything to do with conditioning..it is still stimuli/reaction and that is the entire purpose of the pavlov principle.

(in reply to Queencie)

Post #: 6

RE: Conditioning - 5/18/2008 5:19:28 AM

subden

Posts: 16
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline

when i was married and my wife ws very domante, She would sometimes wake me in the morning by placing the panties she wore the day before over my face and secure them with a scare or some such item. then i was to service her orally and after she had her first release i was allowed to masterbate to release. i should mention, she enjoyed chastity training. by the time we were devorced, i decovered it was very, very difficult for me to have a release without the use of her panties, which were now long gone. it took several months before i could get back to normal, so to speak, and release on my own.

_____________________________

(subden) zenda destiny
was given temporary name by Mistress that invited me to join this comunity

(in reply to chezzy71)

Post #: 7

RE: Conditioning - 5/18/2008 10:50:44 PM

Shawn1066

Posts: 987
Joined: 10/7/2007
Status: offline

Well, my Owner's other pet Angel is, I believe, conditoned to the point that he can only reach orgasm with the smell of baby oil. I do believe this took quite a while to cement firmly. I do not know details. If I remember, I'll link this to her to see if she'd care to comment.

I don't know if I'm conditioned or not, honestly. I do believe my Owner has created a ton of different little physical/mental triggers on me, but I"m not sure if it'd fit into what you're speaking about. Nothing even totally reaches the level of Angel's conditioning, I'd say.

DV's Fox

< Message edited by Shawn1066 -- 5/18/2008 10:53:47 PM >

(in reply to subden)

Post #: 8

RE: Conditioning - 5/19/2008 8:40:41 AM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

Fox is correct, Angel is conditions not to reach orgasm every time he smells the baby oil, but to be unable to do wso without it. This has taken almost 2 years to fuly condition, becasue making it possible for his bidy to endure the teasing and stimulation but yet not get anywhere took a lot of work. Now, I only need to uncap the bottle in the room with him, not even use the oil itself on him, and he an cum for me.
Fox has no conditioning simply becasue I dont see a point. With angel, our play is so very specific and predictable that the conditioning enhances that beautifully. Fox Fox, our play varies widely, and so working a conditioned response in would be more work than it would be pleasure.

DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to Shawn1066)

Post #: 9

RE: Conditioning - 5/19/2008 6:00:44 PM

pixelslave

Posts: 1444
Joined: 8/19/2006
Status: offline

I'd like to comment is that conditioning of the type being discussed here can result in long term emotional damage to the sub. Before engaging in it, I strongly urge Dommes and subs alike to consider how the sub will be affected should the relationship end. If/when that happens, undoing the conditioning may not be an easy task and could leave the sub in a condition where he's sexually dysfunctional or otherwise impaired.

- pixel

Updated Journal today: Wyatt still missing, now over 4 weeks.

_____________________________

Chivalry isn't dead! It's for those who have it in their hearts & are willing to be taught. It's a way of life, a code of honor; this one's armor still needs some polishing!

(in reply to Queencie)

Post #: 10

RE: Conditioning - 5/19/2008 6:33:56 PM

CoasttoCoast

Posts: 71
Joined: 5/22/2007
Status: offline

I haven't read this thread thoroughly yet, but you may want to look into Neural Linguistic Programming, (NLP) and a book called "monsters and magical sticks"

It's a form of hypnotism that sometimes utilizes a technique called "anchoring"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring_(NLP)

(in reply to pixelslave)

Post #: 11

RE: Conditioning - 5/26/2008 10:03:41 PM

pollux

Posts: 657
Joined: 7/26/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Queencie

In the past I have tried this when I conditioned the arousal of my submissive (even when he was chastized) to the scent of my perfume. The conditioning was performed by letting him smell my wrist and at the same time stimulating him sexually. Other activities we had did not involve direct sexual stimulation of him, or when it did it was always linked to the scent of my perfume.
After a short while his arousal was very obvious whenever I had my perfumed wrist (or in other cases, a piece of cloth) against his nose.

*fans self*

Wow. THAT is hot.

_____________________________

Oppressed by massive structural violence.

(in reply to Queencie)

Post #: 12

RE: Conditioning - 5/26/2008 10:17:20 PM

Leatherist

Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Queencie

Ivan Pavlov's description on how animals (and humans) can be trained to respond in a certain way to a particular stimulus, has drawn a my interest for quite some time.

We have all heard about Pavlovian conditioning, where repeated presentation of a neutral stimulus evokes an innate, often reflexive, response.

In the past I have tried this when I conditioned the arousal of my submissive (even when he was chastized) to the scent of my perfume. The conditioning was performed by letting him smell my wrist and at the same time stimulating him sexually. Other activities we had did not involve direct sexual stimulation of him, or when it did it was always linked to the scent of my perfume.
After a short while his arousal was very obvious whenever I had my perfumed wrist (or in other cases, a piece of cloth) against his nose.

I wonder if such conditioning could have been taken further to have him, for example, orgasm in reaction to smell (or any other neural stimulli)…

Would others that experienced conditioning would you be kind enough to share their experiences and techniques?

I've kept female subs in diapers in the past over periods of time. They eventually began feeling a strong urge to urinate as soon as they were in them-but not out of them. It was sort of strange, but thier reactions to what thier bodies were doing was amusing.

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

(in reply to Queencie)

Post #: 13

RE: Conditioning - 5/26/2008 10:54:17 PM

cyberdude611

Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline

Sex therapists frequently use classical conditioning to help women achieve orgasms during sex who have trouble achieving them. And the therapy is quite successful.

This is also how many think fetishes develop and reinforce themselves.

(in reply to Queencie)

Post #: 14

RE: Conditioning - 5/27/2008 11:52:16 AM

Wheldrake

Posts: 477
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Queencie

Chezzy the main difference of what you describe to the situation I was referring to is that you are referring to a fetish, which is directly linked to arousal, and therefore is not a form of conditioning. My guy didn't have a fetish to my (or any other's) perfume, not to the activity if smelling my wrist or perfumed cloth.
It was a reaction achieved thru this repeated activity of stimulation conditioning.

Actually, I've seen something like conditioning put forward as an explanation for the psychological origin of fetishes. A young man in an impressionable frame of mind goes to a party... spots from across the room an attractive and sensual woman, towering in red stiletto heels... feels a sudden rush of passion... and associates red stiletto heels with sexual arousal for the rest of his life, if the experience has a sufficient impact. Maybe imprinting would be a better word for this than conditioning, since it's based on a just a single chance event, but there's still the basic idea of an artificial connection between a stimulus and a seemingly illogical response.

Of course, I don't know if this explanation has any validity, or if it's just pop psychology. But it sounds intuitively plausible.

(in reply to Queencie)

Post #: 15

RE: Conditioning - 5/27/2008 6:09:33 PM

cyberdude611

Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheldrake

quote:

ORIGINAL: Queencie

Chezzy the main difference of what you describe to the situation I was referring to is that you are referring to a fetish, which is directly linked to arousal, and therefore is not a form of conditioning. My guy didn't have a fetish to my (or any other's) perfume, not to the activity if smelling my wrist or perfumed cloth.
It was a reaction achieved thru this repeated activity of stimulation conditioning.

Actually, I've seen something like conditioning put forward as an explanation for the psychological origin of fetishes. A young man in an impressionable frame of mind goes to a party... spots from across the room an attractive and sensual woman, towering in red stiletto heels... feels a sudden rush of passion... and associates red stiletto heels with sexual arousal for the rest of his life, if the experience has a sufficient impact. Maybe imprinting would be a better word for this than conditioning, since it's based on a just a single chance event, but there's still the basic idea of an artificial connection between a stimulus and a seemingly illogical response.

Of course, I don't know if this explanation has any validity, or if it's just pop psychology. But it sounds intuitively plausible.

That's actually one of the main theories with fetishes. For whatever reason the brain makes a connection between two unrelated things. Fetishes also tend to be reinforcing. So by appeasing the fetish over and over again, you only make the connection stronger. In some people this connection can become so strong they cant achieve orgasm without the fetish stimulus.

The issue of course is that the connection has to be made sexually. Whether the brain's unconscious makes the connection is a question mark. Most of these connections seem to just happen spontaneously out of the blue. Charces are you would not be able to connect the perfume to sexual pleasure in the person's unconcious.

Now you may be able to teach arrousal to it. As the original idea behind perfume was that it contains a scent that creates arousal. Of course that isnt always the case. Ive walked into a party before with too many women wearing too much perfume and it wasnt very stimulating...it was more like chemical warfare.

(in reply to Wheldrake)

Post #: 16

RE: Conditioning - 5/27/2008 7:29:00 PM

CuriousPuppy

Posts: 120
Joined: 6/20/2004
Status: offline

It's much easier for a female to learn/train to have an orgasm in response to some stimulus (word/smell/certain touch/etc) than a male simply because from a very young age males associate and link orgasm with ejaculate. One thing that can help significantly, is if both you and him unlink "orgasm" from "ejaculate". Someone already mentioned monsters and magical sticks, which is an excellent book, but Look Into my Eyes by Peter Masters (free legal download) is probably a slightly better place to start since it's a bit more basic. It might not all make sense when you read through it, and most of the example scripts he provides are probably outright turnoffs for most people... but I think it's probably part of the point to make readers adapt basic things for their own interests and uses while still allowing the book to have been publishable. After you run through look into my eyes, monsters and magical sticks will be a great read and many of the cogs will start to fall into place where things that were fuzzy before begin to make sense.

(in reply to cyberdude611)

Post #: 17

RE: Conditioning - 5/27/2008 7:36:26 PM

ThundersCry

Posts: 892
Status: offline

Isn`t that just one of the risks you take when you get into relationships where those kind of dynamics within that relationships are going to occur?

I will agree..its takes time...it took me alot of time to overcome some of the conditioning I had submitted...to.

A few years...painfull years...agonizing...years.

To bad...

Cowboy up or stay home...

(in reply to pixelslave)

Post #: 18

RE: Conditioning - 5/27/2008 7:41:50 PM

pixelslave

Posts: 1444
Joined: 8/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousPuppy

It's much easier for a female to learn/train to have an orgasm in response to some stimulus (word/smell/certain touch/etc) than a male simply because from a very young age males associate and link orgasm with ejaculate. One thing that can help significantly, is if both you and him unlink "orgasm" from "ejaculate". Someone already mentioned monsters and magical sticks, which is an excellent book, but Look Into my Eyes by Peter Masters (free legal download) is probably a slightly better place to start since it's a bit more basic. It might not all make sense when you read through it, and most of the example scripts he provides are probably outright turnoffs for most people... but I think it's probably part of the point to make readers adapt basic things for their own interests and uses while still allowing the book to have been publishable. After you run through look into my eyes, monsters and magical sticks will be a great read and many of the cogs will start to fall into place where things that were fuzzy before begin to make sense.

Can these types of practices be readily used by an untrained person to undo conditioning that someone has experienced or otherwise recondition them to have a difference response to the same stimuli? As an example, in the case of a male who's been conditioned not to ejaculate until given permission and then eventually finds it difficult to ejaculate at all, even when given permission to by/with his a partner. Would this be helpful in undoing the damage that's been done to him through the previous conditioning to hold back & wait for permission to have his release when with a partner?

- pixel

< Message edited by pixelslave -- 5/27/2008 7:43:34 PM >

_____________________________

Chivalry isn't dead! It's for those who have it in their hearts & are willing to be taught. It's a way of life, a code of honor; this one's armor still needs some polishing!

(in reply to CuriousPuppy)

Post #: 19

RE: Conditioning - 5/27/2008 8:10:39 PM

CuriousPuppy

Posts: 120
Joined: 6/20/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pixelslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousPuppy

It's much easier for a female to learn/train to have an orgasm in response to some stimulus (word/smell/certain touch/etc) than a male simply because from a very young age males associate and link orgasm with ejaculate. One thing that can help significantly, is if both you and him unlink "orgasm" from "ejaculate". Someone already mentioned monsters and magical sticks, which is an excellent book, but Look Into my Eyes by Peter Masters (free legal download) is probably a slightly better place to start since it's a bit more basic. It might not all make sense when you read through it, and most of the example scripts he provides are probably outright turnoffs for most people... but I think it's probably part of the point to make readers adapt basic things for their own interests and uses while still allowing the book to have been publishable. After you run through look into my eyes, monsters and magical sticks will be a great read and many of the cogs will start to fall into place where things that were fuzzy before begin to make sense.

Can these types of practices be readily used by an untrained person to undo conditioning that someone has experienced or otherwise recondition them to have a difference response to the same stimuli? As an example, in the case of a male who's been conditioned not to ejaculate until given permission and then eventually finds it difficult to ejaculate at all, even when given permission to by/with his a partner. Would this be helpful in undoing the damage that's been done to him through the previous conditioning to hold back & wait for permission to have his release when with a partner?

- pixel

Look into my eyes is pretty basic in what it shows people how to do, erotic fantasies of the mind for the most part (which work very well with a bit of practice). To be honest I would say monsters and magical sticks and some others (many of them mentioned and covered in an overview of sorts in monsters and magical sticks) would be more useful for undoing that sort of thing you mention. An awful lot of things that can be done come down to the person wanting or believing something to be the case. Without reinforcement the conditioning would eventually fade and drop on it's own similar to the feeling of absolute wrongness that goes with driving in the US after living in the UK (left/right side driving) or viceversa will eventually go away. A lot of people think that hypnosis, various conditioning methods, NLP, and whatnot is either some sort of magical technique or absolute tripe; one of the good things about monsters and magical sticks is that the second half of the title is "there's no such thing as hypnosis". For the most part, the book is about getting people to relax and lower barriers in various ways for you to help them push buttons, pull strings, and turn dials to get desired effects.

As long as the person who's been conditioned wants to change and there isn't something physical in the mix (i.e. trained incontenance and needing to build up the muscles/skills for potty training again), it's a relatively simple matter to undo what's been done. There are even sites & communities out on the internet that cater to that sort of thing and have downloadable deprogramming recordings simply as a matter of conscience. Also I sent you a PM once I finish typing it :)

(in reply to pixelslave)

Post #: 20

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