RE: Proprietary Interest (Full Version)

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SirJohnMandevill -> RE: Proprietary Interest (5/19/2008 3:14:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Here's the scenario for the Master types:

It is in your best interest that you keep your slave. It is in your slaves best interest that you release them. What, if any, sort of situation would need to be taking place in order for you to override what is best for you and do what is best for your slave? Do you feel that by doing what's best for you, as a Master, that that is what's best for your slave as well? Something else?


My .02 zlotys: If it's over, it's over. I would exhaust every avenue trying to find out what was making my submissive lady unhappy and what I could do within boundaries to change that, but ultimately, why remain committed to someone who is no longer willing to serve? It would indeed be in my best interests to release her and find someone who will be happy to serve me.
 
Les (Purveyor of Fine, Handcrafted Kink)
 
 



SleepyDom -> RE: Proprietary Interest (5/19/2008 3:16:49 PM)

If the slave really believed or knew that it was in her interest to leave, then she would since I wouldn't keep her from doing that.  But perhaps she can't, you can be so thoroughly conditioned that the action is practically impossible--there are accounts of slaves who've packed up their suitcases, all set to go, but just can't make their feet go out of the house.  But in that case, if it's really that hard, it's not clear if it would be in her interest to leave--she's going to have some serious issues once she's separated.

On the other hand if she doesn't believe that it's in her interest to leave or doesn't even really think about it because she's completely trusted me to make that sort of call, then we're talking about an internal dilemma of sorts where I might feel I'm being a little selfish for keeping her when in fact she'd be better off otherwise.  This is interesting in the abstract, but I have a hard time thinking up an example.  But I have to say that if the disparity is great enough, I WILL release her because I do care about her and love her (I can't imagine owning a slave that I didn't love as a person, not necessarily romantic love) and want what is in her interest.  It would be like letting a daughter go off to another state for college.  I would really miss her but if it's clearly in her interest, I don't want to hold up her progress.



Prinsexx -> RE: Proprietary Interest (5/19/2008 3:18:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

For the Slave types:

If your Master would not release you even if it was in your best interest that he do so, would you walk anyway or do you feel that as the slave, your duty is to fill your Master's interests before your own, so you would stay? Something else?


I walked.....
Much later he phones and talks ....
I stay walked.
He doesn't understand that there is a what's best for me separate from a what's best for him.



Evility -> RE: Proprietary Interest (5/19/2008 3:44:08 PM)

How could it possibly be in my best interests to keep someone who defies their own best interests by staying with me? I simply cannot see how those to circumstances can exist one aside the other.



BitaTruble -> RE: Proprietary Interest (5/19/2008 4:02:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael


I want someone at my side who cannot imagine any other place they would want to be and strive to create that, as imperfect as my attempt may be. 

Now, if I felt her reasoning was wrong, I would attempt to discuss it with her, I might even use a bit of force in a "yank her chain" sort of way but ultimately, I would let her go.  I might hide in the wings to ensure she is safe from whatever mistake she is making but some lessons need to be learned the hard way.

So, I just can't see both happening at the same time.


[sm=agree.gif] Excellent post. Thank you, Michael.

From the other side of the kneel, I wouldn't want to be with someone who didn't want 'me' either. I'm not fungible and if I was with someone who thought I was, I can't imagine that either of us would be well served. I don't think of Masters as fungible either. It seems to me that such thinking would make for a very rocky foundation that would eventually crumble. It would make shopping for a partner a lot easier though!

"Where do I find dark haired slaves? Aisle seven.. but, we've got a special going on till Saturday for red-heads!"

"Great, I'll take two!" 

Celeste



MadRabbit -> RE: Proprietary Interest (5/19/2008 4:10:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

It is in your best interest that you keep your slave. It is in your slaves best interest that you release them. What, if any, sort of situation would need to be taking place in order for you to override what is best for you and do what is best for your slave? Do you feel that by doing what's best for you, as a Master, that that is what's best for your slave as well? Something else?


I tend to give what I need and what the people who have been with me need equal weight. After that, what I want get next priority with what they want coming after that.

With such a question like that, where what both of us need come into conflict, then I would encourage them to leave and find someone else, because my feeling of responsibility towards their well being and happiness overrides my selfishness.

However, I also consider the idea of "releasing a slave" to be completely inane and in direct conflict with the reality of "consent" that binds the relationship together. I am too pragmatic to think that I have any real authority over that issue.

"No, you cannot be released!"
"Fuck you, I am going!"
"...."

You just kind of look like an ass at that point...



KnightofMists -> RE: Proprietary Interest (5/19/2008 4:26:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

It is in your best interest that you keep your slave. It is in your slaves best interest that you release them. What, if any, sort of situation would need to be taking place in order for you to override what is best for you and do what is best for your slave? Do you feel that by doing what's best for you, as a Master, that that is what's best for your slave as well? Something else?



I don't see this a viable scenario with any lasting permanence for the relationship.  For me, it is the relationship that takes precedence over the individual interests.  However, for the relationship to be viable it would be in the best interests of all indivduals in the relationship.  This is not to say that moments of scarifice or challenge can not occur here and there... but the bottom line is that it's in everyone's interests for the relationship to continue.  Now if it is in just one person's interests to end the relationship... then fact is... it's in everyone's interest in the long run to end the relationship.  I think Bounty captured in very good when he express the idea of diminishing returns.  We opposing interests of the viability of the relationship... Some tend to try to squeeze every drop out of the lemon before we are ready to move on.  While others rather not expend excessive energies for an end-game and rather place their energies to new opportunties.

In the long run... if it is the best interests for the slave to be released... then it is my best interests as well.  It only a question of when. 



ownedgirlie -> RE: Proprietary Interest (5/19/2008 5:22:01 PM)

What an interesting thread.

Bounty, MadRabbit and KoM (unless I missed anyone else) were the only ones who didn't assume the slave wanted to be released in your scenario.  There could also be a scenario in which it was the best interest of the slave to be released, while both the slave and the Master want to stay together. 

There have been times in my own relationship when I thought it might be in my best interest to go, contrary to what my heart wanted.  In those times, I trusted my Master's direction, and I was always glad that I did, in the long run.



gypsygrl -> RE: Proprietary Interest (5/19/2008 5:26:58 PM)

Whats for the best and what people want aren't always the same thing.



Leatherist -> RE: Proprietary Interest (5/19/2008 6:45:52 PM)

It would depend on what the issue was-inpossible to say without knowing.



DesFIP -> RE: Proprietary Interest (5/19/2008 6:47:54 PM)

Refusing to release someone who doesn't want to be with you is plain foolish. He could say he wasn't letting me go, but if I wasn't there anymore, wasn't taking his calls etc, then it would be wishful thinking at best.

But I can't imagine a situation in which what was best for one of us was the exact opposite of what was best for the other. Even if he got offered a job out of town that he couldn't turn down, he wouldn't have to release me. We'd just have to return to being LDR.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Proprietary Interest (5/19/2008 8:06:52 PM)

The first question would be- is there love between us?  If there is, then I would need to release them immediately.  For me love is the experience of encouraging someone to be true to themselves, EVEN if that means not being with me.  To deny that would be to deny our love and that would just be so completely against who I am and what we created together to be unimaginable.

No love?  Then it would be a bit more serious to consider.  I might indeed not immediately grant release to make sure things were going right.  Big changes should be done in small doses whenever possible I think (life always forces quick ones no matter what you do).  Ultimately though, if we could not come to an understanding that it was best for our own personal fulfillment to be in that dynamic with eachother at the time, I can't imagine forcing it.

That being said, if I or they left anyway, I would not blame them or put them down for it.  That's not an easy choice and one they may never fully recover from.  But I wouldn't literally prevent them from making it or make it more difficult on them because of it.



TemptingNviceSub -> RE: Proprietary Interest (5/19/2008 8:28:50 PM)

If I am asking for release, then I have an absolutely well thought out reason for doing so.. hence maybe not physically,but definitely, mentally, I am gone.If he is releasing me, and explains his reasoning, then what more can I do but accept that he is doing what he thinks is best..so again, I am gone...IMO, if one or the other is of a release mindset, then what are you holding on to? After all it takes 2 for a relationship to even exist.....Tempting



AtlantisKing111 -> RE: Proprietary Interest (5/19/2008 8:42:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OmegaG

I'm thinking that if the slave feels her best interests are served being released, sooner or later the Master will agree with her.  I can't imagine one actually maintaining a decent attitude when she is in a relationship she doesn't want to be in.


What she said



Padriag -> RE: Proprietary Interest (5/19/2008 8:52:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

It just wouldn't be in my interest to keep someone who didn't want to be with me.

That pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter.



Skully7000 -> RE: Proprietary Interest (5/19/2008 9:54:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DS4DUMMIES

"What, if any, sort of situation would need to be taking place in order for you to override what is best for you and do what is best for your slave?
 
This is easy. Once her consent is withdrawn, trying to do with her, what I'd done when it was consensual, may be construed by the local folks with the badges and guns and pretty lights on the car, as a felony. In my admittedly limited, yet painfully practical view of the world - I have no desire to be nonconsensually subbing to a lot of smelly, sexually deprived, and rather stupid men in prison. Therefore, I subscribe to the theory that once a woman wants out......nothing I want from her could possibly be important enough to me to cause me to go to prison to not get it.

DS4

I agree with this...

the one possible exception would be if its the heat of the moment type of situation. I may say something along the lines of: I won't release you now. "Go ________ , and in the morning we will discuss things and if you still want to you will be released"



MasterFireMaam -> RE: Proprietary Interest (5/20/2008 12:39:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Here's the scenario for the Master types:

It is in your best interest that you keep your slave. It is in your slaves best interest that you release them. What, if any, sort of situation would need to be taking place in order for you to override what is best for you and do what is best for your slave? Do you feel that by doing what's best for you, as a Master, that that is what's best for your slave as well? Something else?


It is my duty as the leader and Master of the household to put what it best for my household first, individual slave second and myself third, with the rare exception. To deliberately inhibit the growth of another person by keeping them is immoral, in my world. Doing what is best for the slave is doing what is in my best interest as their Master and spiritual guide.

What overrides this and can lead to the rare exception is if doing such will damage me in some irreparable way. I don't see that happening, though...if someone no longer feels as if they fit in the household or with me, I highly doubt I'd try to force them to stay. I can't force anyone to do anything they really don't want to do anyway, so to try would be fruitless.

Master Fire



BitaTruble -> RE: Proprietary Interest (5/20/2008 1:19:19 AM)

Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful, wonderful responses. When I posed the question I hadn't really thought about a slave who was requesting release because she no longer desired to serve or was unhappy, but I didn't make that clear in the OP and, well, how come ya'll aren't mind readers? ::grins::

SleepyDom got pretty close to what I was thinking about when I posed the OP.

On the other hand if she doesn't believe that it's in her interest to leave or doesn't even really think about it because she's completely trusted me to make that sort of call, then we're talking about an internal dilemma of sorts where I might feel I'm being a little selfish for keeping her when in fact she'd be better off otherwise.  This is interesting in the abstract, but I have a hard time thinking up an example. 


I don't know whether that clarified my question for everyone but if there are further thoughts, I'd love to hear them.

I'm a bit torn on the issue (one of the reasons I brought it to the boards in the first place was for differing perspectives). On the one hand, from my slave perspective, his best interest is more important to me than my best interest. The idea of him putting me first kind of squicks me. For him to release me because it's in his best interest would be much easier for me to understand and embrace. On the other hand, again from my own slave perspective, the decision is his to make and if he decides to put my interests ahead of his, then by my own definition of slave (which I try my best to live by) I would accept that decision and, I guess, go away if that's what he told me to do even if I didn't want to leave.

Yanno .. what day is it? I think I must be hormonal because even though I posed the question, writing out the idea of it is making me kind of sad and it's just a hypothetical.

Gawds.. I'm a fucking mush. [:'(]

Celeste






SleepyDom -> RE: Proprietary Interest (5/20/2008 4:10:28 AM)

Oh I know why I'm having such a hard time coming up with an example.  It's because I feel that she's part of me, an extension of me.  Owning a slave (in this lifestyle) is not like owning a slave in the Roman times or owning a stereo.  You come to know them very well (perhaps better than themselves in some ways) both mind and body and since she's under your control, your will, really the only thing separating you two is space.  Releasing her would be a little bit like letting go of my right arm.  Maybe more than a little bit, as the emotional, spiritual, and sexual unity is very strong.  I love her very much in a way different from romantic love (though it can include it), a kind that endures as long as the M/s dynamic is there and as long as there's true appreciation of each other as slave and master.  It would crush me to let her go and it would crush her to be let go.  If it doesn't (for either), then in an important sense she's not a slave any more, but a slave in name only, only technically.  As long as she's truly your slave, as long as this peculiar kind of unity still exists, there's no more HER interest and MY interest, but OUR interest or MY interest (where 'my' here extends to her because she's part of me).  It's not a complete unity, it's not a complete dissolution of two people because there's still another person capable of their own will and their own life should they go off on their own, but there's a strong enough sense of unity that thinking of my interest vs her interest is very difficult to think about.

As long as she loves me in the complementary way that I love her, what's in her best interest and what's in my best interest is for us to be together.  This is not too hard to understand as it exists even in vanilla relationships where two people love each other.  They stick by each other even when one is sick, even when one loses their job, even when tragedies strike.  They don't go, "Oh, he's got cancer and will die in a few years, so it's in my interest to leave him and find another partner" or "Oh he lost his job and I'd be better off finding a better provider" or "Oh she can't have a baby, it's in my interest to find another mate who can since I really want one" etc.  They don't because they love each other and this love makes it in their interest to stay together despite all hardships of life.  I guess I'm saying the same thing for a true M/s relationship, one where a strong love exists (one that I've been trying to describe).  Might there be M/s relationships without such love?  Maybe.  But I wouldn't understand those.  I doubt a slave could be a slave (truly) if she didn't love her master.  And a master who truly owns her, truly owns her mind and body, well I can't imagine him NOT loving her.

Whew, I feel like I've just written a paper, an Ode to M/s Love. [:D]



slavegirljoy -> RE: Proprietary Interest (5/20/2008 4:58:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
 
For the Slave types:

If your Master would not release you even if it was in your best interest that he do so, would you walk anyway or do you feel that as the slave, your duty is to fill your Master's interests before your own, so you would stay? Something else?
Very interesting question, although i don't really like hypotheticals because there are so many possible ifs involved.  But, here's my thoughts on this. 
 
How could it possibly be in my Master's best interest to keep a slave that is not fully functional in carrying out her duties?  And, i guarantee you, that if there was such a situation that caused me to feel the need to leave my Master, it would be something that would be so dire to me that the weight of it on my mind would make it difficult to function the way that i should.  Oh, i would get the work done but, not in the same way that i do now.
 
So, even if He physically kept me with Him, He wouldn't really have me with Him.  Not completely, any way.  And, He really doesn't have any need for keeping a non-functioning or low-functioning slave around.  Most of the work i do for Him could easily be done by someone else.  He could hire someone to do those things, if He wanted to.  He doesn't need to have a free laborer to take care of Him. 
 
As for the other things i provide, such as companionship, well, i wouldn't be much of a companion if my mind were on things that were making me feel i needed to leave.  You can't force someone to be cheerful and talkative and funny and, basically, good company.  Not that i am those things always but, He does enjoy my company and, He wouldn't have it, if my mind were elsewhere and i were feeling compelled to leave.

So, i would say that if the Master and slave have a relationship that is working, that is fulfilling both of their needs and, the problem is being created by an outside factor then, i think it would be in both the Master's and the slave's best interest to work to resolve whatever it is that's creating this situation.
 
If, on the other hand, the reason the slave feels a need to leave is due to something that is within the relationship or within herself and the relationship just isn't working for her, then it's probably in the best interest of both (in the long run) to just let the slave go.
 
But, if the situation is something entirely different then, i really don't know what the answer might be.
 
Like i said, too many possible ifs involved with hypotheticals.  But, this is generally how i look at it.
 
Edited to add:  The relationship i have with my Master, while structured as an Owner/property type of relationship, is still a voluntary one.  Neither of us was forced to be in this relationship and neither of us is forced to remain it.  It was formed because we both felt it was in our mutual best interest to do so.  And, if at any time, either of us felt it was in our individual best interest to end the relationship, we would do so. 
 
He and i formed this relationship voluntarily and for the sole purpose of fulfilling both of our needs.  The needs of the relationship don't take precedence over the needs of each of us.  It is the purpose of the relationship to satisfactorily meet the needs that each of us has, not the purpose of each of us to meet the needs of the relationship.  Hopefully, that makes sense.

joy
Owned servant of Master David



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