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Teaching to top - 5/20/2008 9:58:09 PM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		I am going to take a stab at this here, and hope to get some helpful feedback. I have been asked by a former pet to help him learn to top his new girlfriend. The situation:
Kitten was mine over the summer, and left for school in september. We have remained good friends, but we no longer pla with one another. He is extremely submissive, and cant see himself as being comfortable being demanding at all, even when it comes to simple things like preferences for dinner plans.
While he is away at school he met this amazing girl. They are perfect together, socially. They like the same music, even the obscure stuff. They enjoy the same sort of movies and even the same literature... they met in English class. One day after class on their way to lunch, she mentioned to him that she was a sexual submissive. She admitted that vanilla sex doesnt get her anywhere and that most of the relationships she had been in had failed becasue the guys just couldnt be dominant enough in the bedroom. He knows the feeling, it was the same reason his relationships dont work, the girls he has been with werent dominant enough until he met me.
Fast forward to the week before summer break... they go back to his place and watch a movie. She kisses him, and they proceed to make out for quite a while. He is leaving to come back to Nashville the next day, so it doesnt go past the kissing. Now, though, he knows she is interested in going somewhere with him. He also knows he is FAR from sexually dominant, and doesnt even know where to begin. He asked me for help.

My problem... and what I want advice with... is where on earth to start! I have a few weeks with him around to give him a crash course in soft bedroom domination. Not normally a problem, but I have never actualy done anyting soft bedroom dom before, and I dont know how far is too far. I know he wants to learn how to pul hair without it being TOO painful. so i have that covered. He wants to learn to talk dirty... which might be a chalenge to kep him from sounding like the script of a bad porn. I am thinking cuffs or rope bondage for hands and ankles... but what else? Or anything else? He wants to give the impression he has aclue, when he really doesnt. He doesnt want her to know he is actually ebing very submissive and only learning to do this becasue she has mentioned it. He wants her to be happy... and I want him to be happy. I just dont know what would be the proper "starter course".

DV


_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
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RE: Teaching to top - 5/20/2008 10:03:45 PM   
slavelet


Posts: 42
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: offline 		as a sub... i would say... he needs to think about the way he would want to be treated in her position... and concentrate on doing to her what would make him happy. Those might be nice places to start.

slavelet

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RE: Teaching to top - 5/20/2008 10:12:33 PM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline 		Perhaps some "orders" for her to follow?...."crawl to me"...etc.....

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RE: Teaching to top - 5/20/2008 10:16:05 PM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		I dont know how well orders would be recieved. I think its just a sex thing, which is what I am having trouble with. I ahve never separated it...



_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

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RE: Teaching to top - 5/20/2008 10:25:58 PM   
softandshy


Posts: 297
Joined: 5/10/2005
Status: offline 		Would he be comfortable administering a light spanking?  Has the use of blindfolds and things like ice or fur or feathers for sensation play come up?  Sensation play might be a good area on which to focus, along with restraint and sensory deprivation.

Edited to add:  You may want to check into some books designed for vanilla people wanting to spice up their sex life.

DiurnalVampire, it isn't my intention to be rude, and you probably have already done this, but have you asked him if he believes he can be happy filling this role for his partner over time?  If he chooses not to speak to her and explain that he actually is submissive and trying to please her, she may, well, expect him to top regularly, think it is an integral part of him.  If he is deeply submissive... i keep thinking that if i were in his place, i probably could do this for a while, but eventually it would start feeling very bad inside for me.  It may be worth an extended discussion.

< Message edited by softandshy -- 5/20/2008 10:27:42 PM >

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RE: Teaching to top - 5/20/2008 11:12:32 PM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		Ive already discussed the possibility that he will be in the top role permamently. He thinks he can learn to enjoy it, especialy if she does, as long as he is comfortable with it. He knows he might eventualy have problems with it, and he will have to take them up with her, but he really wants to do this and I am not in a position to try and talk him out of it. I want to support him, and maybe he has a dominant streak he doesnt know about that will emerge over time.
Blindfolds i hadnt thought of since i never use them. Ice is something i might suggest. I am thinking the suggestion of what would you like inthis situation might work, but he is a masochist, and i dont think she is... so it might be a tad off base.


_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

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RE: Teaching to top - 5/21/2008 12:47:42 AM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		With the caveat that he may or may not have a top side in there yearning to come out ...

I would suggest he start with some of these:
* simple bedroom orders eg Undress me. Hang my clothes. Fetch me some iced water (he may choose to do something interesting with the ice later of course!). Wash my back. Give me a backrub etc etc ... pampering can be good fun
* simple bondage ... cuffs are much easier than rope for a novice. They can be quickly connected with the dogleash-style clips. I found dog choker chains of varying lengths to be very handy when clipped to say ankle cuffs for loose shackles. The challenge to the sub is not to let the chain touch the floor! Or clip a chain to both wrist cuffs and the D ring on a collar. Cuffs can also be combined with rope to tie someone to a bed safely. Adult shops also sell bondage tape which sticks only to itself and not to skin, a few wraps around with that can be surprisingly effective. And it's reusable if you wrap it back on the roll when you take it off. Could go as far as mummification in plastic wrap if desired as long as he is cautious about overheating etc and has safety scissors on hand to cut it off.
* sensation play ... hot and cold, harsh, tickly, soft, furry, feathery, thuddy etc! Look for pervertables, simple things around the house that can be used on the skin. Combining this with sensory deprivation such as blindfolds and ear plugs ... can be very effective play without being threatening and requiring items that may seem scary.
* gentle impact play ... play spanking, starting gently to warm up and not going beyond a rosy glow initially can be a lot of fun.
* can consider some role play if that makes him feel more comfortable ... choose a pair of roles they feel comfortable in eg headmaster and student, boss and secretary etc. In the same light, puppy or kitty play can be huge fun if the 2 of them are animal lovers.
Any or all of these could be a prelude to some good sex!

Good luck to kitten and how lucky he is to have a caring friend to guide him! It speaks volumes of Your nature too DV that he feels comfortable with asking this.
Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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RE: Teaching to top - 5/21/2008 1:06:29 AM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire
He wants to give the impression he has aclue, when he really doesnt. He doesnt want her to know he is actually ebing very submissive and only learning to do this becasue she has mentioned it. He wants her to be happy... and I want him to be happy. I just dont know what would be the proper "starter course".


It seems he has found a person who shows promising compatibility for general companionship and I wish him well.

I believe one can be taught how to top and, even, how to dominate. The bigger question is can one learn how to enjoy the dominant role when one prefers the submissive role. Even there there is hope. I think everyone falls somewhere on a spectrum between dominance and submission, and where one falls is also related to the other person involved. And there are different reasons for why different people enjoy a dominant role, amongst which is the satisfaction of knowing one has taken their partner to a wonderful space. I expect this reason will be his primary reward in assuming a dominant role.

What makes for dominance comes fairly easy to me from what I experience as a submissive. My advice to any submissive wishing to try a dominant role is to think about what affects him as a submissive, and see if that also applies with the person at hand.

By taking this dominant role, he is not necessarily being submissive but instead a compassionate partner; an act of service can represent submission, affection, or both. While for submissives the romantic expression can be intertwined with submission expression, I see his wish to be dominant to her to be more a romantic expression than submissive expression.

The question that I am pondering is whether it is a good idea for him to hide what he is hiding, or is it better for him to say that he also enjoys or has enjoyed sexual submission but is willing and interested to try dominance with her.

Cheers,

Sea


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RE: Teaching to top - 5/21/2008 4:40:14 AM   
malloves69


Posts: 913
Joined: 9/15/2006
Status: offline 		just wondering isnt it supposed to be dude-et for a lady .oh ok doesnt sound very good

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RE: Teaching to top - 5/21/2008 5:17:28 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire

I dont know how well orders would be recieved. I think its just a sex thing, which is what I am having trouble with. I ahve never separated it...




I can see some issues that he (and she by the way) must address long before he learns to be a top.

First, does she know that he considers himself submissive as well? Personally, I find it very unfair if he were to cater to her desires and needs but she gets to ignore his. So once she knows he has a similar orientation, they need to work out a schedule where they can satisfy each other's needs. Frankly if he can learn to top for her, she can learn to top for him.

Second, do they understand the difference between topping and dominating? A person who is submissive may not be able to do the domination but can very well do topping. A person who desire domination may not be happy with just topping -- regardless of if it's sexual and bedroom only or other times. Until they know this about each other they can't learn to please each other.

Third, how important is being monogamous to them? If that's a must then they must compromise above. If not, they can always get some of their desires met in other dynamics. However, I really caution against opening up a pair until they are on firm ground first. From my personal experience that has been at least a one year period and each new person is another new year of time to get everyone firmly on board.

Fourth, which might be better at #1, what the heck does she mean by "submissive in the bedroom"? A lot of people toss around BDSM terms these days but mean quite different things. They have to know exactly what this all means or they can't start to learn and you certainly can't help him learn.

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RE: Teaching to top - 5/21/2008 6:00:41 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		Oh DV I see red flags on this and only because my submissive wore a Dominant mask for many years and it ruined not only his life, but a couple of the women he got involved with as well. Its really tough to pretend to be something that your not and eventually it will eat a person up inside. But thats a total side issue from what your asking here so let me change gears.

However, if he wants to be honest with her that he's not actually Dominant but does have the ability to Top, thats cool. And who better to teach him than you? I would teach him some bondage techniques (in different positions), flogging, wax play, massage, some light tit torture with clothespins maybe. Also I'd teach him how to setup a scene and how to use his voice in a commanding way.

I don't know how you feel about this but maybe let him practice on you? and see how it goes. But I think the most important thing is for him to be honest with her and let them develop and grow at their own pace. You can teach him the basics but you can't put his heart into it for him, that is something he will have to do.

~Lashra


_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”






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RE: Teaching to top - 5/21/2008 6:34:53 AM   
Madame4a


Posts: 2045
Joined: 2/4/2008
From: Washington, DC area
Status: offline 		Is it just me, or does this sound to others like... square peg, round hole?

Aside from teaching, I'd also give him some good advice about not trying to be something just for a relationship.. not good in the longterm...

I'd be more inclined to believe he might like topping if he came to it on his own and then found someone to top...

< Message edited by Madame4a -- 5/21/2008 6:35:29 AM >

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RE: Teaching to top - 5/21/2008 6:36:56 AM   
khem


Posts: 300
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline 		Bondage and orders weren't the first things that came to mind.  Usually when I hear that someone is submissive (but not into the lifestyle or BDSM, yet), I usually translate that into them liking rough, forceful sex.  I'm not sure he even needs to break out the rope yet - simply pushing her face into the pillow while he fucks her or pulling her hair a little might be plenty for this girl.  Heck, just him standing while she kneels to give him a BJ can seem very submissive to some. 

If he's having a hard time getting into the mental space, maybe explain the concept of service topping?  If he feels like he is providing a service and making her happy, it might be easier for him to translate his submissive behavior into topping.

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RE: Teaching to top - 5/21/2008 6:54:52 AM   
LadyLynx


Posts: 1098
Joined: 7/24/2007
Status: offline 		light spankings, scarves for restraint, lots of nibbling, teasing/pleasing. (maybe have him give her lots of orgasms.) Other then that, I dunno without knowing what her interests are. 

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RE: Teaching to top - 5/21/2008 6:59:50 AM   
LadyLynx


Posts: 1098
Joined: 7/24/2007
Status: offline 		using scarves for bondage would be a good start, light spankings, teasing/pleasing, giving her alot of orgasms. then depending on how both of them feel about that afterwords, continue, getting into wax play, and what not.

_____________________________

Our community maybe openminded as a whole, but it is still made up of individuals who bring in their own opinions,baggage and agendas!

Known as SwitchWitch in my local community,and on IRC Bondage.

I also go by the nic SwitchWitch on MDS.

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RE: Teaching to top - 5/21/2008 7:06:23 AM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		The problem is this is what he WANTS to do. I am trying to teach him, and he has assured me that he plans on telling her that he is submissive or was one at least. Until he met me, he had never been anything but vanilla. He doesnt honestly know if he can be dominant or not, he has never tried. He wants to top her, during sex play only, but nothing before or after the scene (for now, I did tell him that might evolve later). I think what is worring him more is the difference in experience, since she is an expereinced bedroom sub and he has little top or bottom. Neither of them, from what I understand, want this to be any part of thei life past the sex sceneing.
AS far as I know, they are in a completely open relationship at the moment. I dont personally see long term possibilities in it when his main focus is the sex part. But, I am also going to help him learn that since he asked to learn it.
He cannot practice on me. Having nothing to do with being topped, I would never put myself in that position with anyone when my relationship with Fox and Angel is not an open one. If he were not just ooking to learn about the sex parts, I might have considered it.
She already knows what she is doing and what she likes. He wants a basic understanding of what to try on a spur of the moment first time and a basic idea of afew things to do later. He will be telling her he is a beginner, but doesnt wan to appear completely clueless. I understand that.
I appreciate all the pointers, too, and the opinions. I taked to him last night after he got home, and after I had read some of this. We wil be chatting again about it, with more of the community concerns for him to mull over before he ges back and sees her after the summer.


_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

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RE: Teaching to top - 5/21/2008 4:56:40 PM   
petdave


Posts: 2479
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire
She already knows what she is doing and what she likes. He wants a basic understanding of what to try on a spur of the moment first time and a basic idea of afew things to do later. He will be telling her he is a beginner, but doesnt wan to appear completely clueless. I understand that.


That's good... at first it sounded like he was planning to come on as having significantly more experience than he actually was, and not only is that unpleasantly deceitful, it can even be dangerous.

If she is fairly experienced, then knowing what she's interested in is really going to be key... If he's going to be acting as a "service Top" (i think i'm using that correctly), then there's no reason to go into, say, rope bondage, if all she's interested in is rough sex or OTK.

i think the biggest thing to cover is going to be safety, especially if she doesn't have a lot of practical experience. Is he the sort that, if she says she really wants to be choked, will go ahead and choke her without doing any kind of research? Just as an example. But also things like not leaving someone alone when they're bound and gagged, monitoring blood flow in bound limbs, communication, safewords, etc. It kinda sounds like he'd be prone to getting carried away with wanting to be The Dom For Her, and maybe not think things through as much as he should.

As far as technique, i would cover things like how to swing a flogger, basic use of clamps, some basic bondage, and lots of sensation play stuff, including something along the lines of using dildos and vibrators on a woman without annoying or hurting her... i'd suggest inexpensive cuffs over rope, just because rope can be complicated, and avoid scarves because it's too easy to end up needing to cut them off.

Just a few thoughts... i can understand where he's coming from, it's just hard to be specific without knowing what she's looking for.

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