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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/23/2008 9:14:09 AM

soul2share

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Irishknight....

to quote GT......

*SNORT!*

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/23/2008 9:23:36 AM

GreedyTop

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OT..

Soul.. I love the quotes in your sig :)

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/23/2008 10:12:34 AM

DomAviator

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While I am not anti-gay and do have gay and lesbian friends and support gay marriage (why should straights be the only ones to suffer?)- I do AGREE with the military ban on them serving. Not because I think its right to discriminate against them because I dont, but because I think that it is prejudicial to good order and discipline. Ie the good of the service over the good of the individual.

I have seen what happens when a sailor is suspected of being gay and let me tell you it was a major fucking headache to me that resulted in my having to deal with incident after incident after incident in which I was getting my ass chewed by the XO for not fixing the problem, and I had a sore throat from screaming at the chief to get it fixed. The kicker to this whole mess was that the sailor in question WAS NOT even gay - he was simply a soft spoken, extremely religious man loyal to his girl at home who he ultimately married.... Nonetheless the other sailors were SURE he was "a fag" so there were blanket parties (wrap him in a blanket and beat him with bars of soap in socks), accidents in the hangar, people fucking with his tools, grafitti, hate messages, turds left in his rack, etc..... It was non stop drama, and drama detracts from the real business of running a squadron... When I have a chief trying to find out who replaced this sailors tools with butt plugs and dildos and we are conducting a search for the missing tools which might now be FOD that could damage or destroy an aircraft, hes not making sure aircraft are launch ready. The chief's job is to supervise the men not play kindergarten teacher to protect the gay man from persecution... Nothing against the gays, but it is a disciplinary nightmare in such a testosterone charged environment.

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 5/23/2008 10:13:10 AM >

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/23/2008 4:10:35 PM

Gwynvyd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

Gwyn..let me know when Nadine will be there... if possible, I'd like to hear her speak.

We are having a *Major* speaker this Sunday... Marc Adams. http://www.meetmarcadams.com/ He has written books on Reparitive therapy.. ( where religious orgs force you to be straight through therapy) and is talking to our congregation about it. ( and the evils there of) I am doing the Chalice Lighting for it. *smiles* I am so happy to be part of the service.

I wish you had Sundays off!

Gwyn

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/23/2008 4:18:35 PM

Gwynvyd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

While I am not anti-gay and do have gay and lesbian friends and support gay marriage (why should straights be the only ones to suffer?)- I do AGREE with the military ban on them serving. Not because I think its right to discriminate against them because I dont, but because I think that it is prejudicial to good order and discipline. Ie the good of the service over the good of the individual.

I have seen what happens when a sailor is suspected of being gay and let me tell you it was a major fucking headache to me that resulted in my having to deal with incident after incident after incident in which I was getting my ass chewed by the XO for not fixing the problem, and I had a sore throat from screaming at the chief to get it fixed. The kicker to this whole mess was that the sailor in question WAS NOT even gay - he was simply a soft spoken, extremely religious man loyal to his girl at home who he ultimately married.... Nonetheless the other sailors were SURE he was "a fag" so there were blanket parties (wrap him in a blanket and beat him with bars of soap in socks), accidents in the hangar, people fucking with his tools, grafitti, hate messages, turds left in his rack, etc..... It was non stop drama, and drama detracts from the real business of running a squadron... When I have a chief trying to find out who replaced this sailors tools with butt plugs and dildos and we are conducting a search for the missing tools which might now be FOD that could damage or destroy an aircraft, hes not making sure aircraft are launch ready. The chief's job is to supervise the men not play kindergarten teacher to protect the gay man from persecution... Nothing against the gays, but it is a disciplinary nightmare in such a testosterone charged environment.

That is the exact reason why gays should be in the military so prick wads like those boys will get used to it.. and maybe might mature some. *THEY* should have been peeling potatos, and on extra PT untill *I* got sick of it as a CO. I never tire of seeing some douche bag do push ups personaly.

It is bred into that type of society that it is ok to act that way.. and if the gay person is just tossed out it will go away. It should be beaten out of the asshats *doing* it.

Just my 2 ducats...

Gwyn

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/23/2008 4:23:34 PM

GreedyTop

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I wish I had sundays off too..*sigh*

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/23/2008 4:37:14 PM

Real_Trouble

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My commentary:

1 - Banning gays from the military is insane. If you have the kind of discipline problems that were described above, dishonorably discharge the entire unit. Or, in the case of isolated incidents, the individuals involved. I find, being in charge of other human beings myself, that when you make clear there is a very severe penalty for idiotic discrimination, everyone falls in line fast.

Read Machiavelli's The Prince. First one that sticks their head up to challenge you on something like this gets it cut off. Works wonders.

2 - In light of the fact that an extremely conservative court in California just upheld marriage for gays and straights as a right (though, I love the fact that they also opined that it would be possible to simply ban all marriages as an equal treatment issue, only it seemed less in the interest of the state), I think we may be seeing a sea change on this issue.

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/23/2008 5:08:02 PM

Alumbrado

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Isn't it funny how the minorities are always supposed to be the ones responsible for the bigotry toward them and any trouble that arises?

Here's a thought.... how about we deserve a military with supervisory people capable of maintaining order with gays, blacks, women, and everyone else serving equally, instead of 'leaders' who want the rank and titles, but don't want to do the heavy lifting?

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/23/2008 6:09:49 PM

TheHeretic

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DA, the tale you tell speaks very poorly of you as a leader, whether you could drive the fuck out of an airplane or not. The suspected gay wasn't the problem. You were.

It's hardly scientific, but a higher percentage of my gay friends are veterans than among the straight ones. The military needs to be a prudish organization. Whatever happened to just keeping it 100 miles from the flagpole?

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/23/2008 7:03:26 PM

DomAviator

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

DA, the tale you tell speaks very poorly of you as a leader, whether you could drive the fuck out of an airplane or not. The suspected gay wasn't the problem. You were.

It's hardly scientific, but a higher percentage of my gay friends are veterans than among the straight ones. The military needs to be a prudish organization. Whatever happened to just keeping it 100 miles from the flagpole?

I will agree with the statement above to a point... However, I was an aviator with other duties assigned and this got dropped on my lap because I drew the short straw of "welfare officer" and the XO decided this was a matter of the welfare of a squadron member. (In other words he didnt want to deal with it and dumped it on the LTJG) Frankly, I didnt work out of that shop, I didnt berth in that space, etc... Its not like say a Marine infantry unit where those guys are yours and you work with them daily. Furthermore, I had a mandate to "deal with it" and to "keep it in the family"... I would have just as soon sent the whole fucking bunch to mast (Non Judicial Punishment) or even refer it to an appropriate investigative authority so the guilty can be found and dealt with via an article 32. HOWEVER, when you have to keep it quiet and handle an issue going on with unknown parties who you dont even work with its kind of tough. A sailor saying "so and so stole my walkman" or having two dragged in front of me for fighting is one matter but try figuring out whose turd it was in the guys rack when nobodys talking isnt easy or even possible short of perhaps sending it out to a lab for DNA typing of any cells in it. (Which couldnt be done while keeping it on the down low and in the squadron) To be frank, the REAL issue of leadership rested with the chief who was in that shop and working with those guys and who had a chance to get some scuttlebutt, maybe hear some snickering or plotting etc... So yes there was a leadership issue - but in my defnese my hands were kind of tied in what I could do about it and I had been given the responsibility to fix it, but not the authority to do so.

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/23/2008 7:31:42 PM

TheHeretic

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Fair enough. I had taken the impression this was more directly under you in the chain. If a situation like this was handed to an O-2, the leadership problem sounds institutional.

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/23/2008 7:37:52 PM

Real_Trouble

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Yeah, I won't hop on DA for this either; one of the problems that can occur often in the military is passing of the buck in typical fashion.

The end point is always the first person with the real authority to change something - that is where one needs to look. Blaming more junior staff who don't have the power to make changes is the sign of a weak leader.

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/23/2008 7:40:25 PM

thornhappy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

While I am not anti-gay and do have gay and lesbian friends and support gay marriage (why should straights be the only ones to suffer?)- I do AGREE with the military ban on them serving. Not because I think its right to discriminate against them because I dont, but because I think that it is prejudicial to good order and discipline. Ie the good of the service over the good of the individual.

The Israelis and the UK don't seem to be having problems with it....and there are over 20 other countries with openly gay servicemembers.

thornhappy

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/23/2008 8:10:40 PM

DomAviator

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Yeah it was a real mess... In retrospect, I had two theories on it... #1) The chief was in on it, if not instigating it. Because despite the fact that I was reaming him till literally I had a sore throat from yelling - it continued. (You know how it goes - incident happens, XO reams me cause he said no more incidents, I ream chief because I ordered it dealt with....) I always thought maybe the chief was providing tacit approval on the QT. My second theory is that it was a homosexual behind it! At that time, before dont ask dont tell, the Navy was not as tolerant. Gays were actively hunted, to the point where they would cruise gay bars looking for sailors.... I always wondered if there was a "butch" gay guy nobody suspected stirring shit for this kid so as to keep the wolves from circling him. Def. not a tolerant environment and dont forget the senior officers are all old school. I dont see it changing for a generation at least.

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/23/2008 9:26:33 PM

Irishknight

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Despite what some people will say, there have always been gays in the military and there always will be. many of these homophobe assholes forget that it doesn't matter who is protecting your ass as long as he is doing it and doing it well. Hell, throw me in a foxhole with Richard Simmons or Michael Jackson as long as they shoot the fuckers who are trying to shoot me and they do it consistantly.
Of course, as long as there are gays in the military, we'll have bigots right there beside them. Its a long road that we have to fight and there may never be a true end. That doesn't mean we should quit fighting though.
DA, I feel for you on that problem. The worst thing a CO can do to a junior officer that hasn't screwed up is to make them try to fix a problem like that while also ordering them to keep it quiet. Its kind of like swimming the english channel with your hands tied behind your back. It makes me wonder if he really wanted the problem fixed.

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/23/2008 9:36:33 PM

kdsub

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OK a little reality here...not that I agree or condone...but reality. Gays do lower trust and moral in a unit. Makes no difference if it is true or not but, at least with men, they believe gay men are weak and not to be trusted in war.

Butch

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/24/2008 5:41:02 AM

Alumbrado

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

OK a little reality here...not that I agree or condone...but reality. Gays do lower trust and moral in a unit. Makes no difference if it is true or not but, at least with men, they believe gay men are weak and not to be trusted in war.

Butch

As DA's example quite clearly ilustrates, it is the bigots who create the lowered morale and incease mistrust. If they don't have an actual gay person for a target, they will cause other problems, or they will simply fabricate a non-existent complaint against someone who isn't gay.

The answer is to dismantle the culture of fear and replace it with one of acceptance of other professional military members...as Ike did with minorities, and major police departments have done with gay and other minority cops for decades.

It won't turn the bigots into good people, but it will remove their sense of entitlement, and slowly open the way for high performing service members to focus solely on the mission.

You can't use 'unit cohesion' as an excuse for DADT, when the policy itself is encouraging those who want to disrupt the unit by being jackasses.

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/24/2008 5:57:28 AM

Justme696

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It is weird that a country like the USA still accepted it untill now. Every one looks up to the USA..the land of freedom. I thought these kind of things were already normal overthere.
Gladly it is now.

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/24/2008 6:02:18 AM

kittinSol

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ORIGINAL: Justme696

Every one looks up to the USA..the land of freedom.

They certainly don't anymore.

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RE: Don't ask don't tell - 5/24/2008 8:50:56 AM

kdsub

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I always try to tell it like it is…at least in my personal experience. Gays standout like a sore thumb in a military outfit. They are usually loners…not because they want to be but because most young straight men do not want to be seen associating with them. They are afraid of being thought of as gay by association. It’s not right but the way it is.

Military outfits must be close net to function properly… you need friends and allies to watch your back… You need trust and confidence in your fellow soldiers. Gays never have it easy in life and even less so in the military. A loner is more likely to get killed or get someone else killed… It has nothing to do with bravery, strength, or morals.

I can at least understand the militaries view.

Butch

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