RE: Don't ask don't tell

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DomAviator -> RE: Don't ask don't tell (5/24/2008 9:52:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub OK a little reality here...not that I agree or condone...but reality. Gays do lower trust and moral in a unit. Makes no difference if it is true or not but, at least with men, they believe gay men are weak and not to be trusted in war. Butch As DA's example quite clearly ilustrates, it is the bigots who create the lowered morale and incease mistrust. If they don't have an actual gay person for a target, they will cause other problems, or they will simply fabricate a non-existent complaint against someone who isn't gay. The answer is to dismantle the culture of fear and replace it with one of acceptance of other professional military members...as Ike did with minorities, and major police departments have done with gay and other minority cops for decades. It won't turn the bigots into good people, but it will remove their sense of entitlement, and slowly open the way for high performing service members to focus solely on the mission. You can't use 'unit cohesion' as an excuse for DADT, when the policy itself is encouraging those who want to disrupt the unit by being jackasses. I agree with this in theory - BUT in practicality dont expect to see it actually happen for 40 years. As I said, before DADT gays were actively hunted. Ie the Navy (I cant speak for other services as I wasn't in them) made it a point to "find and dispose of the gays". Literally, they had gay bars staked out looking for Sailors in them. If a guy didnt go to the cathouse with his buddies eyebrows went up for "hmmmmm why not?" Some of them were downright hateful. My dad for example was on a regular crusade to "find the fairies" he was a Master Chief with a mission. This is an institutional culture of hate, and while the Seaman Recruit coming in today, or the young ensign commissioned tommorrow may be fully tolerant and not the least bit anti-gay, remember that they wont be masterchiefs and admirals for 20 years. It is going to take two generations of tolerance to purge the ranks of the last of the gay hunters. The chances are very good that right now, the very guys who were persecuting the sailor they believed to be gay are now senior or master chiefs themselves so how do you think a gay person will fare in their unit and what are they teaching their junior enlisted? DADT was never about acceptence - it was a promise to stop the active witch hunt - ie we arent going to ask if you are gay, but make god damn sure we dont find you are. Its going to take two career lifetimes (20 years each) from the date of a "Welcome Gays" policy for the last of the old school to retire...

Alumbrado -> RE: Don't ask don't tell (5/24/2008 12:06:41 PM)
Which is why it should have started in the 60s, when one of the most decorated Marine Colonels I've every personally met ( and Ollie doesn't count, since many his medals were allegedly a result of agressive self promotion), was starting his career... that way he wouldn't have had to wait until he retired to show up at the Marine Corps Ball with a boyfriend.[;)] Seriously, I was at NAS Whiting when the first female pilots in the modern Navy went though, and I listened to this 'the Navy isn't ready' stuff stuff back then... when I first went in, the only duties 99% of the minority members were allowed into were clerical or steward. One of my classmates was black, and the CO refused to acknowledge his existence. But it has to start somewhere, and the USSC stripping away the 'unit cohesion' excuse by insisting that the military treat all high performing service members the same way police departments have, would at least be a start.

DomAviator -> RE: Don't ask don't tell (5/24/2008 12:14:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Seriously, I was at NAS Whiting when the first female pilots in the modern Navy went though, and I listened to this 'the Navy isn't ready' stuff stuff back then... when I first went in, the only duties 99% of the minority members were allowed into were clerical or steward. One of my classmates was black, and the CO refused to acknowledge his existence Yeah I know what ya mean about the blacks being stewards (you forgot cooks!). If my father wasn't dead, I would ask him if he ever had a black student named Carl Brashear. Ever seen "Men of Honor"? I swear to God that charector of Master Chief Billy Sunday had to be based on my dad or someone very much like him. Though that was probably the template for the Salty ol Chief back then.... When I saw that movie though I thought Shit, I know who this is!!!!

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Don't ask don't tell (5/24/2008 1:21:29 PM)
Aviator my dad was an infantry officer. He went through OCS in 1965. He got out of active duty in 1974, but stayed in the Guard and retired a colonel. He told me a story about these MPs catching a couple of guys (one of whom was in his company) "hiding the salami" (my dad's words) in the latrine in Vietnam. One of the guys barricaded himself inside with a .45. The MPs were acting like macho pricks, and they were talking about going in and killing the guy. My dad stepped in and told them the hell they were. He went in and talked the guy down. My dad was far from liberal. He was the southern version of Archie Bunker, but I never heard him say negative things about gays. I think he thought it was nobody's business what two adults did together. Of course, my dad never had anything nice to say about MP's. So I am sure that had a lot to do with it. I was in ROTC when they implemented the "don't ask, don't tell" policy. I heard a lot of guys in the course making all sorts of ignorant comments and it bothered me, and I wasn't the only one it bothered. I could see the look on other people's faces when some of these pricks were making "fag" jokes. But I didn't say anything, and I regret that. I think a lot of people are like that, they go along with the group to avoid scrutiny. That kind of shit wouldn't happen if the military didn't tolerate it. They wouldn't tolerate it if this idiotic policy of "don't ask, don't tell" was done away with. Gays have been integrated into the armed forces of countries all over the world without a problem. It shouldn't be a problem in this day and age for us either.

DomAviator -> RE: Don't ask don't tell (5/24/2008 1:56:52 PM)
Slaveboy, I agree and I have noting against gays... But "dont ask dont tell" wasnt "its ok" it was the first step towards acceptance. If we do away with dont ask dont tell dont expect immediate acceptence - it might go back to the salem witch hunts. Don't ask dont tell was "we wont hunt you but keep it quiet" not its OK. The problem is that as I said it is going to take two generations of career personell for it to end. See while some of your ROTC buddies were against it - they were going to be 0-1's. The O-6's and above are from 20 years ago and many of them would like to bring back keelhauling as a punishment for homosexuality. Likewise in the enlisted ranks... The E-1 of today may be tolerant as hell, but he may be reporting to that MP who wanted to shoot the guy who is now senior NCO. I personally see nothing wrong with gays and I LOVE LOVE LOVE lesbians. (Lesbians are the coolest female friends, I mean you can actually have a "wing chick" and you know you arent going to be banging her so there is no sexual tension there) Hell I would gladly marry a lesbian and keep a gf on the side for sex!!!) However, the military is what it is and until 40 years pass its going to remain that way even if they appointed the Village People SECNAV... Tolerance wont exist until the last of the intolerant are out of uniform and drinking beer at the VFW.

Gwynvyd -> RE: Don't ask don't tell (5/24/2008 2:45:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub OK a little reality here...not that I agree or condone...but reality. Gays do lower trust and moral in a unit. Makes no difference if it is true or not but, at least with men, they believe gay men are weak and not to be trusted in war. Butch As DA's example quite clearly ilustrates, it is the bigots who create the lowered morale and incease mistrust. If they don't have an actual gay person for a target, they will cause other problems, or they will simply fabricate a non-existent complaint against someone who isn't gay. The answer is to dismantle the culture of fear and replace it with one of acceptance of other professional military members...as Ike did with minorities, and major police departments have done with gay and other minority cops for decades. It won't turn the bigots into good people, but it will remove their sense of entitlement, and slowly open the way for high performing service members to focus solely on the mission. You can't use 'unit cohesion' as an excuse for DADT, when the policy itself is encouraging those who want to disrupt the unit by being jackasses. Exactly, and nicely put. Neredowells will find a reason to be an asshat. Period. My father was a Drill Sarg. for the 101st Airborne. He trained the boys who went to Nam. He would tell you quick and in a hurry that some folks just arent right in the head.. and thier Ma-ma didnt raise them. Bigots are going to be trouble. doesnt matter if you have a Black, a gay, a jew or not.. they will find a way to make trouble for themselves and thier unit. You do not remove all of thier options of hate and hope it will go away. It simply wont. You either beat it out of them.. or you ride them out on a rail. It is not the gay, black, or jewish persons fault for being themself... it is the asshole's problem for having a problem. At this point.. group coheison should come down to taking out the assholes who can not deal with any one less then lilly white then them. Gwyn

Gwynvyd -> RE: Don't ask don't tell (5/24/2008 2:53:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I always try to tell it like it is…at least in my personal experience. Gays standout like a sore thumb in a military outfit. They are usually loners…not because they want to be but because most young straight men do not want to be seen associating with them. They are afraid of being thought of as gay by association. It’s not right but the way it is. Military outfits must be close net to function properly… you need friends and allies to watch your back… You need trust and confidence in your fellow soldiers. Gays never have it easy in life and even less so in the military. A loner is more likely to get killed or get someone else killed… It has nothing to do with bravery, strength, or morals. I can at least understand the militaries view. Butch This statements just makes me ask this.. are you or have you been in the military? Have you ever lived on a base.. or been around gays in the military. It is usualy borad dumb ass statements that show people have no idea that there are different gay folk other then the speedo wearing flag waving "Mary's" that all talk with a lisp.. and sashay when they walk. Those gay males do not enter the army. They might wear the uniform for a kinky weekend.. but they are not real military.. I don't care what ID he showed you. The ones I know in the armed forces you would never in a million years guess they were gay. They do not even in thier personal life act as the made for TV typical flaming gay male. The only loners I knew of in the units were the nut jobs. Usualy hyped up on too much testosterone to do them or any one else any good, and had foul tempers. With the women you have to be tough as nails in the military.. and bust your ass. Finding out who is a Lesbian is damn hard. You can't just look and go yup.. lesbo. All of them would be painted with that brush. Even the married with kids ones. People realy need to stop equating Jack from Will and Grace as the average Gay male. Gwyn

DomAviator -> RE: Don't ask don't tell (5/24/2008 4:51:12 PM)
Gwyn, In kdsubs defense - thats a perception that is appliccable. In my Navy experience we have had suspected homosexuals who were mormons with seven kids LOL The poor kid I described above would have fit kdsubs profile... This kid was a loner. The other guys would go to the cathouse he wouldnt, the other guys would go bar hopping he wouldnt, it wasnt because he was gay it was because he was christian and in love with his girl back home and he would rather stay aboard ship, read the bible, and write her letters than to go out on the prowl like, literally, a drunken sailor. In the Navy the standard question - whether joking or not and whether enlisted or comissioned - for someone who didnt want to play with the boys for whatever reason was "What are you some kind of fucking faggot?" This was even extended to me in one case... I was involved with a local girl from Fallon and I planned to go to Reno for the weekend with Nikki instead of taking a road trip to a legendary cathouse with some of my fellow pilots. Somebody was like "What are ya turning queer on us?" and other were taunting "No, that little blonde bitch keeps his dick in her purse and only lets him have it when he needs to piss" etc... While they may NOT be gay, the loner is the first one pointed at and if you decline to participate the universal taunt is "fag" - even if they have seen you in action in a cathouse in Thailand.

Gwynvyd -> RE: Don't ask don't tell (5/24/2008 6:53:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator Gwyn, In kdsubs defense - thats a perception that is appliccable. In my Navy experience we have had suspected homosexuals who were mormons with seven kids LOL The poor kid I described above would have fit kdsubs profile... This kid was a loner. The other guys would go to the cathouse he wouldnt, the other guys would go bar hopping he wouldnt, it wasnt because he was gay it was because he was christian and in love with his girl back home and he would rather stay aboard ship, read the bible, and write her letters than to go out on the prowl like, literally, a drunken sailor. In the Navy the standard question - whether joking or not and whether enlisted or comissioned - for someone who didnt want to play with the boys for whatever reason was "What are you some kind of fucking faggot?" This was even extended to me in one case... I was involved with a local girl from Fallon and I planned to go to Reno for the weekend with Nikki instead of taking a road trip to a legendary cathouse with some of my fellow pilots. Somebody was like "What are ya turning queer on us?" and other were taunting "No, that little blonde bitch keeps his dick in her purse and only lets him have it when he needs to piss" etc... While they may NOT be gay, the loner is the first one pointed at and if you decline to participate the universal taunt is "fag" - even if they have seen you in action in a cathouse in Thailand. nods It was my point that the actual gays ( which they were referencing ) are usualy not the loners. Yes those who do give a shit about the gal back home and those who are religious may tend to not yuk it up at the cat house. I think as time goes on.. and as we get more people in there and up the rank and file who dont think queers are the great evil.... some of that will calm down. I'm queer.. but I am one of the Great Evils.. LOL yeah.. you're not buyin it are ya? Gwyn

GreedyTop -> RE: Don't ask don't tell (5/24/2008 7:47:19 PM)
you can be evil with me any time ya want, Gwyn..after all, I already know what your pussy likes grin

Gwynvyd -> RE: Don't ask don't tell (5/24/2008 8:25:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop you can be evil with me any time ya want, Gwyn..after all, I already know what your pussy likes grin chuckles yes.. yes you do.. and it is quite happy! Damn girl.. I wish you had Sundays off.. dang it. I am cooking out after church tomorrow. Lamb kabobs. Gwyn

kdsub -> RE: Don't ask don't tell (5/24/2008 9:52:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I always try to tell it like it is…at least in my personal experience. Gays standout like a sore thumb in a military outfit. They are usually loners…not because they want to be but because most young straight men do not want to be seen associating with them. They are afraid of being thought of as gay by association. It’s not right but the way it is. Military outfits must be close net to function properly… you need friends and allies to watch your back… You need trust and confidence in your fellow soldiers. Gays never have it easy in life and even less so in the military. A loner is more likely to get killed or get someone else killed… It has nothing to do with bravery, strength, or morals. I can at least understand the militaries view. Butch This statements just makes me ask this.. are you or have you been in the military? Have you ever lived on a base.. or been around gays in the military. It is usualy borad dumb ass statements that show people have no idea that there are different gay folk other then the speedo wearing flag waving "Mary's" that all talk with a lisp.. and sashay when they walk. Those gay males do not enter the army. They might wear the uniform for a kinky weekend.. but they are not real military.. I don't care what ID he showed you. The ones I know in the armed forces you would never in a million years guess they were gay. They do not even in thier personal life act as the made for TV typical flaming gay male. The only loners I knew of in the units were the nut jobs. Usualy hyped up on too much testosterone to do them or any one else any good, and had foul tempers. With the women you have to be tough as nails in the military.. and bust your ass. Finding out who is a Lesbian is damn hard. You can't just look and go yup.. lesbo. All of them would be painted with that brush. Even the married with kids ones. People realy need to stop equating Jack from Will and Grace as the average Gay male. Gwyn Hi Gwyn Tell me...can you hide your sexual orientation for months maybe years at a time? I don't mean this as an insult to anyone but given a time living in close relationship with others most can't hide. Believe me the relationships become very close and are different then any other you will experience in your life. I'm sure some gays manage to hide but most are found out marked and ostracized. In the time I was in there were three gays in my outfits… no one would associate with them… their time in the service I’m sure was hell. I am not being antigay but telling you my experience. Maybe others have different experiences in their military service I’d like to hear from them. Perhaps mine is a mans point of view and about men...I had no experience with lesbians. PS.... At that time I would not dream of cross dressing...still hard to believe..

Irishknight -> RE: Don't ask don't tell (5/24/2008 10:39:02 PM)
kd, for the 3 that ere found in your unit, there were probably 100 around you guys that you never even suspected. they signed up to serve their country just like the rest of us and they did so without anyone discovering their sexual orientation. thats just the way of things. and be realistic people. Don't ask, don't tell was nothing more than smoke and mirrors. It just changed the way that assholes harrassed gay people in the military. It was still an automatic bye bye if you were found to be gay. It was neither a progressive policy nor a regressive policy. It just put down on paper that gays had to hide who they were.

Alumbrado -> RE: Don't ask don't tell (5/25/2008 1:32:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Hi Gwyn Tell me...can you hide your sexual orientation for months maybe years at a time? I don't mean this as an insult to anyone but given a time living in close relationship with others most can't hide. Believe me the relationships become very close and are different then any other you will experience in your life. I'm sure some gays manage to hide but most are found out marked and ostracized. In the time I was in there were three gays in my outfits… no one would associate with them… their time in the service I’m sure was hell. I am not being antigay but telling you my experience. Maybe others have different experiences in their military service I’d like to hear from them. Perhaps mine is a mans point of view and about men...I had no experience with lesbians. PS.... At that time I would not dream of cross dressing...still hard to believe.. I appreciate you pointing out your experiences... mine were quite different, the guys who were busted had adopted an uber macho posture to fit in, and the loners were simply that... loners, like the kid in the USS Iowa fiasco. I mentioned the highly decorated Marine Colonel I met a couple of years after his retirement... like Petty Officers Hartwig and Truitt, Col Camermeyer and Sgt Matlovich, the only thing that made him standout was exemplary performance.

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