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Padriag -> RE: Are Doms Conforming (10/25/2005 1:11:23 PM)
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Turning into a long thread, an me just back from vacation.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SirSix72
I have seen in many threads that the Dominant's are conforming to what is expected that a sub/slave's ideas of a what a good Dominant should be......In this sense are they actually modeling all Dominants to become something more accepted in the western romance novels........they we are to become something like knights in shining armor and if we dont conform to their standards then we are considered outcasts......I have seen many threads that if you are a "softy" you'll tend to get much further within the sub/slave population........I just wanted everyone else's take on this subject
Master Six
What "doms" are you referring to? Are you referring to "doms" who are actually just tops? Are you referring to online players? Are you referring to doms who choose to engage in limited and conditional power exchange relationships? Are you referring to doms who engage in TPE? Are you referring to new doms who are still figuring things out? Are you referring to those for whom being part of a group is very important? Are you referring to Gorean masters who abide by a set of social rules and concepts of what a master should be based on works of fiction? Just which doms in this broad group are you referring too?
My point is simply this, there is no one set group of doms out there abiding by one standard or concept. There are, however, a great many individuals doing what they wish and pursuing their own goals. That makes for a confusing situation since there are no easy stereotypes that apply to them all or even to large numbers in most cases. Instead each individual has to be measured for their own worth.
Speaking for myself, no, I'm not conforming to anybody's standards. Goreans can (and do) sneer at "BDSMers" and referr to us as being mere doms an not true masters according to Gorean standards... now ask me if I care. There are those on the "BDSM" side of fence who are part of organized groups who sneer and call people like me "wilders", mavericks and worse because I don't abide by their concepts of how things ought to be done... now ask me if I care. There's the occasional arrogant asshole who thinks he's the perfect dom who sneers because I don't match his personal delusions of what a master ought to be... again, ask me if I care. I don't care, because I'm not conforming to anyone's ideas of what I should be doing... I do what I believe is best for me. That doesn't mean I don't listen to others, that I don't consider ideas that come from others. But I consider them and weigh them myself before either accepting the idea or some part of it, or modifying it to suit me... I accept nothing blindly. I draw on Nietzsche, among others, for inspiration in my own life... but I do not follow anything he wrote blindly and if I disagree with something he wrote I have no problems with ignoring it. His collected works are not my bible, just a source of inspiration and ideas I personally find particularly useful.
As for being knights in shining armor, what's wrong with that. It used to mean someone who was gallant, courageous, brave, honorable, someone who was willing to defend others and give others a hand up instead of a put down. These days it more often seems to be a euphemism for a fool, so lets just call it what you really mean, you feel most doms are being made fools of don't you? That rather cuts to the heart of the matter doesn't it.
quote:
I brought this subject up as I have seen many submissive say they are the ones in control of the relationships through their wants and desires........im not saying by any means ignore the wants and desires....but there is a huge number of subs/slaves that are saying that if thier individual wants and desires arent met then they will simply walk
People say lots of things, especially in online forums. Ever stop to wonder how many of those are actually really active in the lifestyle vs those who are just playing around with a fantasy online? And if they walk, so what? Good-bye and good-riddance say I. I've said it before, I say it in my profile and I'll say it once more for good measure... I want someone who WANTS to be with me, and that means accepting me for who I am, what I expect and what I offer. Or as G'N'R put it... welcome to the jungle, you can have anything you want but you better not take it from me... [8D] Everyone pursues their own goals and desires, that's just a fact. I have mine, others have theirs... if someone wants to be with me, first thing I want to know is do our goals and desires match... if not, its just not going to work and if they try to take what they want from me anyway... well... not a good idea.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut
It appears that the dominants who always question this don't seem to understand what you have so eloquently stated. We are all here seeking happiness and fufillment. In any power exchange, there are bound to be things that may not make a sub/slave happy or fufilled. The example of making housework a "hard limit" is terribly amusing to me, but probably because I wonder who is responsible for the housework of the sub/slave's house during their search?
There are things that are going to be hard limits listed in profiles. The reason should be so obvious. If a sub/slave has issues with the concept of poly - and every poly person I have ever talked or read about on this thread says they are "wired" that way - stating that multiple partners is a "hard limit" makes complete sense. Why should they seek a master who IS poly and wants them to be one of many? This certainly would leave them unfufilled and unhappy.
Exactly FL. People need to just be honest about what they want and what they have to offer and find someone that matches that. Course the problem is a lot of people aren't honest about that or just plain don't know what they want. Not to mention all the ones just living out online fantasies as a game.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
"Considered outcasts"? "Considered" by whom? (And who are "we," for that matter?) You're talking as though there is some kind of society governed by the High Council of Femsubs, and if doms don't conform to their edicts, they are ostracized. Has something like this happened to you? Otherwise, I can't understand all the bitterness that you (and JustaTop) are displaying.
People are just people. Some subs want a dom that they can twist around their finger. Other subs don't. It's not like there's an organization or cabal that enforces how people are supposed to carry out their relationships .
My observation has been its something Goreans seem to have trouble understanding about BDSM... we have a lot less rules than they do, few accepted definitions. Goreans have clear definitions of what a master is, what a slave is, what their roles are, what conduct is expected of them, social rules, etc. And they seem to spend a fair amount of time arguing over interpretations of what was meant in the books regarding some of these definitions. BDSM doesn't have any accepted "manual" or standards... my definition of a master may be completely different from yours, and both my be very different from anything Gorean. I see both advantages and disadvantages to all those definitions Goreans have... on the one hand it does make things much easier for someone new, there are clearer concepts that are easier to grasp because they are defined. But in the long run it has the disadvantage of forcing conformity... either you abide by those same concepts and definitions or you aren't a "true Gorean", which is essentially the same argument we have about being a "true BDSMer", only on our side the argument has far less merit because there are far less in the way of accepted definitions and concepts. We have no real yardstick by which we can say one person isn't a "real dom" or a "real slave", or that someone is. All we can do is use our personal beliefs and values to decide if this person or that is the sort of dom or sub or master or slave we would be compatible with, whether that be as friends, a relationship or whatever. Makes things a bit more complicated and confusing, but then freedom is like that... means making up your own mind.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SirSix72
no I could care less about being an outcast personally........lmao........just I see a power shift among people and was wanting to get to the truth of the matter....then ya know I get told I expect any woman to grovel on thier knees before me thing.....kinda funny how fast the defenses spring up when asking the questions I ask....most believe it is a symbiotic relationship...ie one cant be without the other...I disagree, am I not a Master even if I dont own a slave/sub........then other say how the symbosis is balanced between the two...isnt a sub a sub without a Master or vice versa? Im not saying there should be a organization on how to carry out a relationship either I completly understand that personal differences will vary from person to person.......but the fact remains that I see and im not the only one whom see's the submissive controlling the relationship through limit setting and gosh forbid those ones you cant dare to breach so this leaves you the Dominant looking for the "one" that can satisify you or vice versa...where did the tolerance go and the mutual respect goto? You would hold your patner back by limit setting? kinda ironic isnt it? I thought this was about finding pleasure together without reservations? and for those of you that have swung the pendulum as far as thinking im talking of illegal activities dont even got there with this thread.....im not trying to bash or dash anyones belief...just trying to get an understanding here...
I think you've got quite a lot of misconceptions there based on what you've seen online... take what you read online with a LARGE grain of salt. Your definition of a symbiotic relationship sounds more like a parasitic relationship. A symbiotic relationship is simply one that is mutually beneficial... doesn't mean either can't exist without the other or that they stop being who they are without the other, it simply means that together they provide benefit to each other... and I would say that in any healthy master/slave or dom/sub relationship that should be the case.
As for limit setting... how do you suppose that gives them control? They can set any damn limits they please... and I can say... "no thanks, next," and frequently have. That's called natural selection... the process whereby those that are unfit or unsuitable are weeded out. How does her setting limits hold me back? If a potential slave tells me she can't do certain things I very much want, then I simply don't pursue a relationship with her. No slave can limit me unless I allow her to do so, and that is entirely my choice. What, if anything, I choose to compromise on is my choice to make. If some doms are more willing to compromise on things than I am, that's their choice and who am I to gainsay them for it? It doesn't really matter to me anyway, what other doms do in no way impacts what I choose to do or seek, so why should I care?
quote:
ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut
Actually, no you are not a "master" if you don't own a slave/sub, except for the master of yourself.
I disagree... but I also think we may be using somewhat different definitions. If you consider being a master as merely a title, then I would agree that you could only claim that title under certain conditions, such as having been given it by a group, owning a slave, or having owned a slave. But, if you consider master as an orientation, a particular style or method of expressing dominance (which I do) then a person who is a master (as an orientation) remains so regardless of titles or relationships.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnWarren
That's about my feeling too. Desires seek their complement. I've said often that I don't "punish" since if a submissive doesn't actively seek to please me, I'd rather not have a D/S relationship with her. At times that's got me a "well, you really aren't really a dominant" which rates a shrug and "maybe not by your definition."
The bottom line is I don't change my expectations to match what someone wants. Frankly it's too much work and it doesn't have "legs."
Amen to that!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Uh huh. It's funny how the whole Gorean forum seemed to die the minute I stopped posting in there. All day today there have been a grand total of two posts. So now you've all followed me HERE?
What are we up to now, Lam's Theorem IV? Anyway, whatever it is, here goes: Goreans can't be happy unless they have an enemy who is allegedly decrying their chosen lifestyle.
It gets tiresome, children.
Edited to add: The most amusing thing was getting private e-mail from Goreans asking me why I don't post in the Gorean forum anymore.
Dunno if they followed you here and I don't keep up with what goes on in the Gorean forum. I do find it a bit funny, and a tad hypocritical that Goreans have their own forum but complain if a non-Gorean posts their views or opinions or disagreements there, yet Goreans seem to have no problem popping into say Ask A Master and offering their views there alongside BDSM Masters. Leaves me wondering why CM bothers having all these seperate forums if nobody is going to respect the intended purpose of them. Subs and slaves regularly answer questions posed to Masters in the Ask a Master forum... Goreans post wherever they please, Masters and Mistresses post in the sub/slave forum... and in fact most folks seem to post wherever they please about whatever they wish... seems a bit nuts to me. But, I'm not a mod here and I don't make the rules... and since the mods here seem content with the situation... well... when in Rome...
quote:
ORIGINAL: MstrHellsFury
yikes....this has been a long thread to go through...I almost walked away from it due to it's length...but alas I can't resist...
I won't even go to what others do...why should I even care...if it doesn't affect me in any way..shape..or form, I couldn't give a square rats butt...
as a Master/Dom...your conduct will speak louder than the words screamed from a rooftop...I say..without any reserve...I'm strict...to what degree...well if I were inflexable...I'd be a very lonely..(not to mention stupid)..individual...a slave doesn't come to me along some assembly line where I just insert this piece..that thought..this action...and tada...I have a carbon copy slave...each is unique in their own right..(if they were not..would you have chosen them)...therefore each has different needs to fulfill...and if you as a Master/Dom don't see yourself as fulfilling anything..well I'll look at you ...smile...then walk away laughing...
we all get something from the dynamics of our relationships...and if we don't...most (but not all) simply move on...
Fury
Ayup, well said.
As for pain and forms of punishment, I could write an essay on that topic, but this isn't the thread for it.
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