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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/24/2008 12:19:25 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

Thats something I find sooooooooo ironic here, that some people are so outraged by things we might do to murdering terrorist thugs who want to exterminante us as a people.... Yet they are seeking pain sluts they can "break physically and mentally"...


Two key differences plus a bonus observation.

Difference 1: BDSM folk seek pain sluts who consent to being used and abused.

Difference 2: BDSM activities between consenting adults are not carried out by my government, purportedly on my behalf.

Bonus Observation: Unless there have been a bunch of trials I haven't heard about, the folks at Gitmo are alleged terrorists.

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(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/24/2008 12:19:31 PM   
Aynne


Posts: 740
Joined: 1/25/2008
Status: offline 		I sure have DA. The difference is some of these doms that wish to do that have no trouble finding a sub or slave that wants the same thing.  I highly doubt that the cheney illegal torture practices is in any way consensual.

Shoot DA, and we were getting along so well.. 

Edited to say damn! DC novice beat me to it..lol.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne

Nope...not quite that pretty DA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding


**Edited to add please read the link then tell me it isn't torture.


Well yes it is unpleasant... But torture - No absolutely not. No permanent harm is done... As I said Ive actually BEEN waterboarded, and it was far from the most painful or frightening experience at SERE. Its no worse than those in this community who engage in breath play...

Thats something I find sooooooooo ironic here, that some people are so outraged by things we might do to murdering terrorist thugs who want to exterminante us as a people.... Yet they are seeking pain sluts they can "break physically and mentally"... Ever checked out some of the profiles here or gone into a chatroom? There are doms looking to do things that make abu graib look like girlscout camp....


< Message edited by Aynne -- 5/24/2008 12:20:19 PM >

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/24/2008 12:22:42 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		dc said something quite important -- "alleged terrorists".
 
If it was certain that some of them were terrorists, would that change anyone's thoughts about torture?

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/24/2008 12:25:00 PM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
There is QUITE the initiation to becoming a shellback... Far worse than Abu G'Raib...


People died in Abu G'Raib so in all fairness I think you are talking out of your arse, no offence.


quote:

27 Al-Jamadi, Manadel 4-Nov-03 Abu Ghraib Homicide blunt force/asphyxiation Yes
ME 03-504 AFIP# 2903283 AP 2-18-04, case # 28 in Fay Report; Steven Myers, Douglas Jehl, Eric Schmitt, and Kate Zernike: "The Reach of War: Abuse Investigations," New York Times, May 31, 2004; "Prisoner Deaths in U.S. Custody in Iraq, Afghan Wars," AP, March 16, 2005 MedCom 171 and 085-092 Yes
53 Salman, Jussayn Ali 24-Nov-03 Abu Ghraib Homicide – gunshot - RIOT   Steven Myers, Douglas Jehl, Eric Schmitt, and Kate Zernike: "The Reach of War: Abuse Investigations," New York Times, May 31, 2004    
54 Shaalan, Raed 24-Nov-03 Abu Ghraib Homicide- gunshot - RIOT   Steven Myers, Douglas Jehl, Eric Schmitt, and Kate Zernike: "The Reach of War: Abuse Investigations," New York Times, May 31, 2004    
55 Sayar, Madoor Hussein 24-Nov-03 Abu Ghraib Homicide – gunshot - RIOT   Steven Myers, Douglas Jehl, Eric Schmitt, and Kate Zernike: "The Reach of War: Abuse Investigations," New York Times, May 31, 2004    
56 Thawin, Dawood Mazin 24-Nov-03 Abu Ghraib Homicide – gunshot - RIOT   Steven Myers, Douglas Jehl, Eric Schmitt, and Kate Zernike: "The Reach of War: Abuse Investigations," New York Times, May 31, 2004  


< Message edited by FullCircle -- 5/24/2008 12:30:40 PM >

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(in reply to DomAviator)
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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/24/2008 12:28:19 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Yes the …Solemn Mysteries of the Ancient Order of the Deep…
My father loved to reminisce about his initiation on the Sargent Bay in WWII.

I’ve his certificate hanging in the living room… great wording.

Butch

(in reply to DomAviator)
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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/24/2008 12:37:55 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

Yes I said "Wogs" in the United States Navy a person is either a shellback or a pollywog. Those of us who are shellbacks call the others "wogs"... There is QUITE the initiation to becoming a shellback... Far worse than Abu G'Raib...


You HAVE TO BE KIDDING.  I'm a shellback since an equator crossing in a Guppy class back in '64 well before the current restrictions.  True the initiation was uncomfortable, particularly since I was a Marine officer to the glee of the Chief of the Boat, but to compare it to the torture that took place at Ab G'Raib shows a level of insensitivity that ranges on the unbelievable.  For one thing, anyone could "safeword" at any time, having to face only the scorn of those who had completed it.  I don't think those poor souls had such an option.



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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/24/2008 12:44:19 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline 		For those interested .... Here are some links to some videos of some fairly mild line crossing ceremonies...

Note what they do to the Wogs? The Female Underwear, the pyramids, the smearing, the beatings ?  Very similar to the alleged "torture" .... All good natured fun...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1iyPeA6UZ4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHOVRBgUlFc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKyLsq0Xl74


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya0JwATK0G8

I say again drinking liqour, eating pork, and wearing panties on your head is not torture its a pig roast at kev's place LOL

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/24/2008 12:47:09 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		I knew those guys were seriously bent, and this confirms it.

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/24/2008 12:50:45 PM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
I say again drinking liqour, eating pork, and wearing panties on your head is not torture its a pig roast at kev's place LOL


Name something against your person belief system and then be forced to do it by someone, see how much you like that.

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(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/24/2008 12:52:21 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

Torture is a part of war - GET OVER IT! Did the Vietnameese turn down john mc cains pillow and give him a mint and a terry cloth robe at night? Did the Iraqis do the same for Jeff Zahn? EACH AND EVERY AMERICAN POW IN THE 1991 Gulf War was tortured, several MALE AND FEMALE were raped. (Thats a fact, thanks to the horny cornholers of the iraqi army, sexual assault resistance was added to SERE training, leading to the airforce academy scandal.) Ok the Geneva Accords are toilet paper and only two countries in history ever followed it - Nazi Germany and US! (The Nazis were actually quite good to POW's , not concentration camp inmates / political prisoners I am talking POW's. If you were captured by the japaneese you were as good as dead...)


Forty percent death rate among American's, a bit higher for English and Anzac troops

quote:



There are soooooooooooooo many atrocities of humanity to obsess about where we were the VICTIM - Unit 731, the death march on battan, the burma railroad,  The Hanoi Hilton, the various pleasant camps in Laos and Cambodia, and on and on and on.... For Christs sake NOBODY IS BEING TORTURED.


Sounds like a small child.... "He did it worse than me"

quote:


Waterboarding is not torture, its scary and unpleasant yes but it leaves no long lasting effects. Ive had it done to me in SERE. In fact, while I cannot tell you exactly what goes on in a SERE class because it is classified CONFIDENTIAL, let me tell you that WORSE has been done to each and every american aircrew member, special forces member, intelligence officer, and anyone else requiring SERE level C before deployment.... I was hospitalized and needed rabies shots after my SERE class... The purpose of a SERE class is to train you for what they WILL do to you if captured. What our loving, kind, gentle, humane enemies will do to an american prisoner.... In my SERE class a guy had to be removed because he attempted suicide by BITING his wrists cause he didnt have anything to slash them with... Thats how pleasnant it is...


We had Escape and Evasion classes in the Corps and they were a bit rough.  I don't recall anyone mentioning they were classified but then the amount of Capsup we consumed was so you're probably right.

I was never captured as an American fighter, but later when I went back to cover the end of the war I was taken prisoner by Kymer Rouge fighers in western Cambodia and was tortured in various ways including a long and extensive cutting and burning with a red hot knife so I think I can say I know torture.  I still have extensive scars including a number on my hands and anyone who has met me can confirm this.  They have to be a bit closer friends to confirm many of the other scars since they aren't visible when I'm wearing clothes.

As to torture, I have a simple solution to finding a definition.   Turn your sister, child or mother over to me and I'll do what you say isn't a torture.  AND I'll tell them you authorized it.

Our enemies may not be honorable, but we should be.  The definition of what we do shouldn't be based on what they do to us but what we hold an honorable person would do.

Hillel was once commanded by a Roman soldier to explain the Torah while standing on one foot.  His success should be a guide to all of us.



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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/24/2008 1:13:11 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

I was never captured as an American fighter, but later when I went back to cover the end of the war I was taken prisoner by Kymer Rouge fighers in western Cambodia and was tortured in various ways including a long and extensive cutting and burning with a red hot knife so I think I can say I know torture.  I still have extensive scars including a number on my hands and anyone who has met me can confirm this.  They have to be a bit closer friends to confirm many of the other scars since they aren't visible when I'm wearing clothes.

As to torture, I have a simple solution to finding a definition.   Turn your sister, child or mother over to me and I'll do what you say isn't a torture.  AND I'll tell them you authorized it.

Our enemies may not be honorable, but we should be.  The definition of what we do shouldn't be based on what they do to us but what we hold an honorable person would do.

Hillel was once commanded by a Roman soldier to explain the Torah while standing on one foot.  His success should be a guide to all of us.



I had no idea you went through that. How horrible. The silver lining to your experience is that you're able to tell others about your perspective: I hope we all take a page from your book. Thank you.

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/24/2008 1:17:02 PM   
Aynne


Posts: 740
Joined: 1/25/2008
Status: offline 		John,

That was quite open of you, thanks for sharing that and thanks for your well stated point of view.

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*Yes I know I have no profile at this time...

I looked in your eyes
Without saying a word
I told you what I am
And I hoped that you heard

~Owned and Loved by Master Sifu~

*founder of I Love Lushy Inc.*

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/24/2008 1:36:58 PM   
bipolarber


Posts: 2792
Joined: 9/25/2004
Status: offline 		If we are to consider ourselves superior to the rabble that we are fighting, then I think it's up to us to hold oourselves well above their level. So, a bunch of ignorrant dirty "simple farmers" who wipe thier asses with thier bare hands torture the fuck out of people they've captured, and even beheaded some, and you guys think this is an excuse for the greatest country on the face of the planet to do the same exact thing?

In case you've forgotten, the stated objective of Al Queida is to "reduce the United States to a shadow of it's former self." (O.B.L.) It seems that in the days since 9/11, they have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. The US is gutting it's own Constitution, and falling into defacto fascisim, all powered by a fear mongering government.

The Constitution: the documant that outlines for us what it means to BE American.

Anyone remember that that peice of paper?

We don't torture people. 

We don't torture people, because we know it to be wrong. It was one of the things that the monarchs of Europe did to our ancestors on a regular basis, as a means of staying in power. It's counter productive. It is not a form of justice. It's nothing more than intimidation and control of those who disagree with you. The Founding Fathers knew that when they put it into the Constitution to begin with.

When "Bad King George" claims executive privlidge in being able to torture people, to hold them without trial, to break into and search their homes and property without a warrant, (or even formal charges) he is full of shit. In time, I fully expect him, Cheany, Rove, and Gonzolez to do jail time for war crimes.

If you really think it is nessecary to physically abuse people in this day and age, in order to extract useful information, you really haven't been keeping up with technology. Polygraph, drugs to break down someone's resistence to suggestibility, and phychological manipulation will net you far better intelligence than simply crushing someone's nuts slowly, or tieing them up and releasing gaurd dogs on them. (Both of which, apparently, we've done, and far worse. According to most sources, the photos that were snuck out of Abu Grahaib were the "Disney" version of what was going on there.)

Bush, Cheaney, and the military commanders that allowed this to go on are a disgrace to the both the military, and the United States itself.


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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/24/2008 1:54:24 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
I say again drinking liqour, eating pork, and wearing panties on your head is not torture its a pig roast at kev's place LOL


Name something against your person belief system and then be forced to do it by someone, see how much you like that.


Ah,...those assholes were terrorists.
Fuck 'em. Who cares what they think?
This is just *another* good reason to get out of that *rediculous* Geneva Conventions!
Aww, the poor terrorists didn't get a "choice?"

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/24/2008 2:08:59 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Oh for fuck's sake, popeye. The Abu Ghraib scandal is one of the most shameful episodes in America's history, and the prisonners weren't even terrorists (not that this would have excused that either). They were mostly civilians. Many had been picked at random. It was not 'benign' and 'fun'. Did you actually read up on the subject? Have you seen the snapshots those fucking bastards of the 372nd Military Policy Company took? It's getting sickening to hear any more justification for this disgusting scandal. Fucking shame  .

NO EXCUSES.

Abu Ghraib

Abu Ghraib photos and videos files (not for the fainthearted).

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 5/24/2008 2:20:02 PM >

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/24/2008 2:14:24 PM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		I pointed out some of the dead prisoners above, the ones that we know about anyway. Apparently a lot of them died in a riot, now someone is going to have to tell me why any unarmed man needs to be shot dead in a prison riot?

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/24/2008 2:19:54 PM   
bipolarber


Posts: 2792
Joined: 9/25/2004
Status: offline 		"Alleged terrorists" Pop. "Alleged."

In some cases, not even that. Many of those held at Gitmo apparently are just Iraqi nationals, who might have had pertinent information.... five years ago.

Much the same with the men being held at Abu Grahib. No formal charges, and the Bush administration fought tooth and nail to have them classified as "enemy combatants" rather than P.O.W.s Bending the legal definition to the absolute breaking point.

This would be roughly similar to you being hauled into jail, beaten sensless on a regular basis, told that your wife and family were going to be killed... all because you maybe delivered some agricultural supplies to a bunch of guys who later built a fertilizer bomb to blow up a federal building... and then you are held for five years without trial. (and counting)

You really don't think the Bush administration lies about this crap?

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/24/2008 2:23:40 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		The United States government had to be sued before they agreed to release the photographic evidence, because they were so afraid of international opinion. They knew it was shameful.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/24/2008 2:24:33 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

I pointed out some of the dead prisoners above, the ones that we know about anyway. Apparently a lot of them died in a riot, now someone is going to have to tell me why any unarmed man needs to be shot dead in a prison riot?


Because they dont listen to their captors and follow the rules of the insititution. Same reason any prisoner in any prison here in the USA is shot if they dont comply. Why do you think the guards in the towers have guns.... See prisoners are fucking PRISONERS all they need to do is obey the rules and do what they are told when they are told how they are told without hesitation and they will not be shot.  Just like this terrorist scum in Gitmo, Abu G'Raib etc... dont join al queda and you wont be captured and sent anywhere... Its a choice. They chose wrong and allah cant save their asses from the US Military.... None of these people are in custody for not bringing a dish to pass to the potluck supper at the Baptist Church!

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/24/2008 2:25:08 PM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Ah,...those assholes were terrorists.
Fuck 'em. Who cares what they think?
This is just *another* good reason to get out of that *rediculous* Geneva Conventions!
Aww, the poor terrorists didn't get a "choice?"


We shouldn't be condemning them when they torture our prisoners of war then?

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