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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/27/2008 9:38:40 AM   
kittinSol


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Ah, you didn't like my point. Fair enough .

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/27/2008 9:43:46 AM   
Alumbrado


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Making up straw arguments isn't considered as 'having a point'.  You didn't like the dictionary definition and resorted to jejune antics.

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/27/2008 9:48:10 AM   
kittinSol


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Ah, you didn't like that I won't get into an irrelevant agument with you over your deliberate obfuscation of dictionary definitions (a tedious collarchat habit, incidentally). Oh well, you'll have to find someone else to fight with :-).

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/27/2008 10:01:20 AM   
Alumbrado


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Project much?

quote:





a.
the tendency to ascribe to another person feelings, thoughts, or attitudes present in oneself, or to regard external reality as embodying such feelings, thoughts, etc., in some way.



b.
Psychoanalysis. such an ascription relieving the ego of a sense of guilt or other intolerable feeling.  http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/projection


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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/27/2008 10:06:36 AM   
kittinSol


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You know, I'm glad you told me you have an interest in Freudian analysis. It's a fascinating area of study. How is it going for you, then?

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/27/2008 10:08:10 AM   
ModeratorEleven


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That's enough, folks.

XI



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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/28/2008 1:52:32 AM   
SugarMyChurro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro
...Douglas Feith spews endless bullshit.


Ex-Bush spokesman: President used 'propaganda' to push war
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/27/mcclellan.book/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

In excerpts from a 341-page book to be released Monday, Scott McClellan writes on Iraq that Bush "and his advisers confused the propaganda campaign with the high level of candor and honesty so fundamentally needed to build and then sustain public support during a time of war."

"[I]n this regard, he was terribly ill-served by his top advisers, especially those involved directly in national security," McClellan wrote.

-----

At least the S.O.B. has a better memory!

Yes, it was all lies and everyone knew it - esp. the insiders. I knew it too, even from the outside. Now we all know it. Everyone knows it was all bullshit.

So why are we in Iraq again...?

How much more nonsense and waste must be endured before we cut the rope?

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/28/2008 4:22:45 AM   
LadyEllen


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Interesting, that as a ship sinks the rats scramble out seeking refuge from the waters about to engulf them too

Of course, ships generally only sink if they are holed below the water line, rotten through to the keel or were poorly constructed in the first place.

If rats could talk, they would be invaluable for telling us quite why a ship sank, since generally they have an up close and personal relationship with suspect parts of the construction by way of their places of habitation on board.

E

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/28/2008 4:24:44 AM   
Level


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I'm curious as to what all McClellan has to say.

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/28/2008 4:51:43 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

I'm curious as to what all McClellan has to say.


I would be interested if he was sworn in at the time.



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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/28/2008 6:20:18 AM   
Irishknight


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I so hate the misuse of the word propaganda.  So many think it is entirely a bad and evil thing.  Those same people are guilty of it themselves.

pro·pa·gan·da
Pronunciation:
\ˌprä-pə-ˈgan-də, ˌprō-\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
New Latin, from Congregatio de propaganda fide Congregation for propagating the faith, organization established by Pope Gregory XV died 1623
Date:
1718
1capitalized : a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions      2: the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person  3: ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect If you look at 2 and 3, the nice people who knock on my door to tell about their religion are using propaganda.   ANY time you try to use information or misinformation to change someone's mind, you are guilty of using propaganda.  Oh, and if you knock on my door to tell me about your brand of god, you are also guilty of trespassing.

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/28/2008 6:56:54 AM   
Sanity


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See, that's your mistake right there. The United States isn't supposed to argue in support of itself, it's supposed to just roll over and die.

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/28/2008 9:00:33 AM   
DS4DUMMIES


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Interesting, that as a ship sinks the rats scramble out seeking refuge from the waters about to engulf them too

Of course, ships generally only sink if they are holed below the water line, rotten through to the keel or were poorly constructed in the first place.

If rats could talk, they would be invaluable for telling us quite why a ship sank, since generally they have an up close and personal relationship with suspect parts of the construction by way of their places of habitation on board.

E


Let's leave ships out of this :)  BUT...seeing as the subject was brought up....here is the ACTUAL reality of why ships sink.

Ships do not necessarly sink from being holed below the waterline. The vessel I command can be holed in multiple places below the waterline and not sink. The engineering concept is something called "floodable length" and "damaged stability". Ships sink when their accumulated weight exceeds their available displacement at a given waterline and trim/heel. Ships can sink from holes ABOVE the waterline, if heeling and downflooding or a free-surface/stability issue is involved. (See the loss of some of the European RO-RO ferries built in the 1980's) Ships can sink from structural failures caused by excessive hogging or sagging moments induced by waves, or grounding. Ships can sink from being overloaded, or from having too high a center of gravity and too low a metacenter, or excessive free surface in their tanks and enclosed spaces.  They can sink from a lack of form stability, improper loading, and from being hit by Exocet missles. Ships can sink from failure of a packing gland or shaft seal around a propeller shaft. Ships can sink from failed or defective welds, or on very old steel ships, rivet drift. Wood ships can sink from failed seam caulking.

Poorly constructed vessels seldom initially sink, if they are certified by a Classification Society. If they are that badly designed or built, they don't usually get far from the shipyard outfitting dock anyway. Most soon-after-construction related losses have to do with stability, not hull failure.

With regard to rats.....ships are my life. I have yet to see a rat infestation on a US flag ship. Ratproofing is a part of any design spiral and is required under US law and international law. Curiously, a ship that WAS famous for a rat problem was the RAINBOW WARRIOR, operated by Greenpeace. The French fixed that problem by blowing it up in New Zealand. If you read the casualty report, there is no mention of the rats deserting the ship, (I AM NOT REFERING TO THE CREW) so it may not be universally true that rats desert a sinking ship. However, if they are bouyant, they may escape anyway, via Archimedes Principle.

For the record...steel does not rot. It corrodes, or it fails by fracture or cyclic stress or over-stress. It may surprise you to know that virtually all steel ships experience stress fractures in their lifetime, no matter how well designed.

It should be noted that rats do not normally inhabit places on ships critical to structural integrity so they likely would have little to say at a Coast Guard casualty investigation hearing. . When they are found, it is usually behind joiner work in stores spaces, under and behind things like refrigerators and stores lockers or pantries, inside seldom-used enclosed spaces that have the access they require, or near to inhabited spaces on the ship, from whence they can easily venture out and obtain nourishment. The most important structual areas on a ship are normally to be found elsewhere.

Wood however, does rot.

Just wanted to elevate the discussion a bit :)

DS4

< Message edited by DS4DUMMIES -- 5/28/2008 9:07:49 AM >


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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/28/2008 11:21:41 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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From Wikipedia:

"
Propaganda is a concerted set of messages aimed at influencing the opinions or behaviors of large numbers of people. As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense presents information in order to influence its audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or gives loaded messages in order to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the cognitive narrative of the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda.


Propaganda is the deliberate, systematic attempt to shape perceptions, manipulate cognitions, and direct behavior to achieve a response that furthers the desired intent of the propagandist.—Garth S. Jowett and Victoria O'Donnell, Propaganda and Persuasion"


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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/28/2008 2:13:44 PM   
LadyEllen


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DS4 - are you for real my dear? LOL!

Many thanks for the technical corrections, but it was an allegorical post I made, connected with the subject matter of the thread, you know?

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/28/2008 3:43:29 PM   
DomAviator


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

DS4 - are you for real my dear? LOL!

Many thanks for the technical corrections, but it was an allegorical post I made, connected with the subject matter of the thread, you know?

E


He sounds for real.... Hes right too the Big Fitz went down because of incorrectly fastened clamps on the hatch cover. A wave broke over the rail and the holds took on water from above... Then she got staddled across two sisters and snapped....

Nice to see someone with a good command of Naval Architecture though... Only question that comes to mind is if this vessel he commands is painted gray

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/28/2008 5:37:36 PM   
Irishknight


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

From Wikipedia:
Propaganda is the deliberate, systematic attempt to shape perceptions, manipulate cognitions, and direct behavior to achieve a response that furthers the desired intent of the propagandist.—Garth S. Jowett and Victoria O'Donnell, Propaganda and Persuasion"


That would be number 3.  And, propaganda is not necessarily FALSE information it is merely biased toward one point of view. 
Isn't that what preachers do?  They only tell you the "truth" according to their church to persuade you to believe thier way.

Although I like the last quote, wikipedia is far from webster's in the reliability category.  I am glad that you were kind enough to try to prove my point though.

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/28/2008 7:24:01 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

... Oh, and if you knock on my door to tell me about your brand of god, you are also guilty of trespassing.


Lol!! 

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/28/2008 9:15:31 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

Feith


Well, part of Feith's argument is that the BUSH team had faith in what it was doing, so to themselves and by their own standards they were never being "misleading" on purpose.

Part of me believes him. It also indicates the great flaw in the BUSH political machine: too much faith in itself and distrust in others outside of its organization -- such as the democrats, experts, and American public that might dissent from the anointed agenda.

So, maybe the Bush team was not deliberately misleading, instead they were just engaged in arrogant paternalism. In the process they themselves became so focused on screening the information around themselves (to fit the goal) that they themselves became unmoored from reality. (The Feith argument.)

One thing I was glad to see was the triumph of reality in the end --- that facts, bad policies, bad decisions, et. al trumped and discredited the Karl Rove spin machine.

Maybe in the end we might witness a triumph of pragmatism over ideology and dogma --- and of setting good policies and good people in place over political victories and loyalties.

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RE: Lies repeated and repeated and repeated... - 5/28/2008 9:20:04 PM   
Alumbrado


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Except that the same organizational dynamics will be in place, just with different actors.... why would we expect different outcomes from those like the Bay of Pigs, or Vietnam, or Iraq?

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