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RE: Paranormal - 10/25/2005 12:25:05 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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I love all those ghosty shows.........and the Ghost Hunters guys are TRYING to debunk the stories they get. They find more real life explanations for things than actual mysteries----like the ballroom that never got warm, because the heating ducts had been blocked off by a blanket stuffed inside.

I sincerely WANT there to be lake monsters, mysterious hairy guys in the woods (not loggers, no mystery there!) and all the fantastical things we can't explain. If there can be a breeding population of some new-to-science animal in the wilds of Borneo, why not a breeding population of primates in the forests of North America?

:)Francine

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RE: Paranormal - 10/25/2005 12:28:42 PM   
SadistDave


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quote:

Did anyone bother to check the logs of either the Laboratoire de Zététique or the other one ? Seriously if I had a paranormal power like reading in the mind of people or telekinesis or anything like that, I would claim 1 million dollars right now, and then I'll go for 200k€. So why is it that people who claimed those prizes (hundreds of people) were all pathetic losers, so far ? Most people who claim they have "psychic" powers are crooks who simply have the power of taking money to credulous people. If ONE really could do what they claim, why wouldn't they go and claim a million dollars ?


I'm very familiar with JREFs FAQ page. I've used it several times in thread like this one in other forums.

The people who are raking in cash bilking people out of their hard earned dough won't take the challenge because it will mean an end to their careers. They make their money by people believing in their "powers". If they take the challenge, their con games will be exposed. No believers = no private jet.

Thats why there are so many morons that try it. They are the misguided masses who actually believe that what they do is of supernatural origin. They are the people who have swallowed the occult marketing machine hook, line, and sinker. Like the guy who claims to be able to call UFO's, and the dowsers that can't find water in open buckets...

JREF claims to have between 40-60 applicants at any given time. Most of them drop out of the challenge because they are too stupid to get the paperwork done right. More drop out because the challengers cannot come up with test protocals to prove their abilities.

There is a preliminary test done on the challengers home turf, with his equipment, and under whatever conditions he sets. So far, none of the challengers have made it past the preliminary tests.

Then there are the ones who know about the challenge, and believe in the paranormal (or perform some occult mumbo jumbo) that just want to debunk the challenge. Their claims are usually that the challenge is unfair, unscientific, or some other nonsense. Mostly it's a self justification of their beliefs via the denial of logic and science.

It's hard to say you believe you can pull a monkey out your ass if you leave yourself open to the possibility that you're a loon.

-SD-

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RE: Paranormal - 10/25/2005 2:46:30 PM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

WTF? Aside from the fact that actually finding God would be the Big Kahuna of all supernatural encounters, there's also the established Christian dogma that Jesus walked the Earth after his death. Ie: he was a ghost... undead... George Romero's wet dream...

How is involving yourself in a religion that says you need to have a personal relationship with a dead guy not seeking out the paranormal?

Indeed, didn't JC even say that the if someone believed in the power of God, that they could move mountains and perform other feats of supernatural origin like exorcism and faith healing?

So, I'm mighty confused by that statement. Seems to me that as a Christian cult member, it's your duty to seek out the supernatural and involve yourself in the paranormal for the glory of your god.

-SD-




Greetings Dave - I know You didnt post the message to me, but I was compelled to respond!lol

Its one of those christian doctrines that have been twisted by modern day(and by modern, I mean victorian and before) interpretations. Bible teachings warn against 'false gods and prophets' etc... practising the occult etc... I am assuming that is what was meant. But in the original text - thats not exactly what was said - its just modern day words that was used - typical of such ancient texts.

I completely agree with you... The resurection is one of the most paranormal/supernatural/out-of-this-world events which most christians fail to admit to. But also, many christians are against 'speaking in tongues' and claims of healing - again... unexplainable events. Its the over zealous adherence to doctrine, rather than reading scripture...

And no - its not my duty - lol - its my calling....

Peace and Love

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RE: Paranormal - 10/25/2005 2:56:00 PM   
frenchpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel





I completely agree with you... The resurection is one of the most paranormal/supernatural/out-of-this-world events which most christians fail to admit to. But also, many christians are against 'speaking in tongues' and claims of healing - again... unexplainable events. Its the over zealous adherence to doctrine, rather than reading scripture...


The problem is... in the book of the Acts, the attendance could understand what the Apostle were saying. If you attend to a Pentecostal service and hear people "speaking in tongues" (which I haven't...), I doubt you or anyone will understand what they mean. So what is the point of it, for the pentecostists?

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RE: Paranormal - 10/25/2005 3:07:01 PM   
darkinshadows


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Well, not all speaking in tongues is inaubile(right word?) I have seen and heard tongues interpreted. Not all tongues is nonsensicle. Its just not always in native tongue.


*just editing to add... that God (if you believe in such) allows for interpretation too... and I have seen it - and not just by singular interpretation either...

Peace and Love

< Message edited by dark~angel -- 10/25/2005 3:09:39 PM >

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RE: Paranormal - 10/25/2005 4:01:53 PM   
frenchpet


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Status: offline 		It's "nonsensical" ;).
If God (in which I believe, I think, sometimes, depends..."
If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name in a Swiss bank. ") allows for interpretations, then certainly one should interpret the bible, not always understand it litteraly ? But then what's the point of the speaking in tongues if different people interpret it differently ?

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RE: Paranormal - 10/25/2005 4:48:20 PM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: frenchpet

It's "nonsensical" ;).


Lol... thank You!...I thought it was something like that... just my excuse of a bad head cold and I can't think...lol)

quote:

If God (in which I believe, I think, sometimes, depends..."
If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name in a Swiss bank. ")


Ach... if God put it in the bank - would that still help along Your belief?...LoL... I have seen it happen - it doesnt always...lol

quote:

allows for interpretations, then certainly one should interpret the bible, not always understand it litteraly ?


Yes.
But I also believe that people should not just take one bible(NIV/KJ/AS etc) and follow it devoutly alone (but study its the original texts) Some people(note:christian) havent even read the apocrypha, or would not even wish to believe it exists... nor even read many of the ancient hebrew / greek / roman /egyptian texts - which are readily available.

quote:

But then what's the point of the speaking in tongues if different people interpret it differently ?


Speaking in tongues is a big area.
When I have seen tongues spoken and interpreted, mostly, I have seen it backed up by unexplained events.
However...
By Your quote, I am assuming you mean that if people interpret each thing on an individual level, then how can something like tongue speech or even the bible be true or make sense to others? I think the proof is there already, by the misuse and mistranslation of certain doctrines. I believe that if someone is prepared to release themself spiritually and not see a 'right way'... other than Gods 'right' then interpretation is pure. Yes there will always be people who abuse that - but the bible and God isnt meant for the public domain. A relationship with God is personal and individual. Its great to all get together now and then with people who think the same way and share - but the actual relationship is unique.
No One knows Gods name... because its me.

Peace and Love



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RE: Paranormal - 10/25/2005 5:15:14 PM   
frenchpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
quote:

If God (in which I believe, I think, sometimes, depends..."
If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name in a Swiss bank. ")


Ach... if God put it in the bank - would that still help along Your belief?...LoL... I have seen it happen - it doesnt always...lol


At least He could try.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
Some people(note:christian) havent even read the apocrypha, or would not even wish to believe it exists

I never had the curiosity to do so, I just checked Thomas' Gospel... the last verse is not very pro-feminist, to say the least (but I kinda like the rest of it). What are the other apocrypha ? I heard there is one about the early years of Jesus, in which He doesn't use His power for perfect purposes...

quote:


Speaking in tongues is a big area.
When I have seen tongues spoken and interpreted, mostly, I have seen it backed up by unexplained events.
However...
By Your quote, I am assuming you mean that if people interpret each thing on an individual level, then how can something like tongue speech or even the bible be true or make sense to others? I think the proof is there already, by the misuse and mistranslation of certain doctrines. I believe that if someone is prepared to release themself spiritually and not see a 'right way'... other than Gods 'right' then interpretation is pure. Yes there will always be people who abuse that - but the bible and God isnt meant for the public domain. A relationship with God is personal and individual. Its great to all get together now and then with people who think the same way and share - but the actual relationship is unique.
No One knows Gods name... because its me.
Peace and Love

That's what I meant yes... I guess I see what you mean, but you're wrong... it's me :).


...Btw you certainly remember, who was Jesus' brother ? James ? Whose brother was Thomas Didyme (Twin) ? There was quite a fuss about the grave discovrered a couple years ago saying brother of Jesus, son of Joseph, but I don't remember.

< Message edited by frenchpet -- 10/25/2005 5:17:18 PM >

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RE: Paranormal - 10/25/2005 6:20:53 PM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

I never had the curiosity to do so, I just checked Thomas' Gospel... the last verse is not very pro-feminist, to say the least (but I kinda like the rest of it). What are the other apocrypha ? I heard there is one about the early years of Jesus, in which He doesn't use His power for perfect purposes...


Geez... now Your asking!
Thing is there is so many! OT - NT... then theres the texts greek and hebrew that are not considered anyway authorised.

The NT Apocrypha is the ones you want concerning Jesus' early life.(James, Gospels etc)

Offically - Deuterocanonical Apocrypha(some of which are still found in the KJ and the catholic bible)

First Book of Esdras
Second Book of Esdras
Tobias<<<<I recommend)
Judith<<<<I recommend)
Additions to Esther
Wisdom(of solomon/son of)<<<I Recommend)
Baruch
Epistle of Jeremiah
Book of Susanna
The Book of Bel and the Dragon
Prayer of Manasseh
First Book of Macabees
Second Book of Macabees
Sirach(or Ecclesiasticus)
Prayer of Azariah
Paul to the Laodiceans<<<I Recommend)

All are considered OT apart from Laodiceans

Gospels of Thomas and of Mary are considered non Deuterocanonical Apocrypha - same as the Odes of Solomon, books of Enoch and Jasher. The Sibylline Oracles are a good source also. There are also works written by biblical figures which are deemed as apocryphilic in nature but not accepted by all - this includes Isiahs Ascension, Jubilees, Assumption of Moses, Life of Adam and Eve, and the Testements of the Twelve Patriarchs.

There are more - lol - You really want me to list them ALL?

quote:

That's what I meant yes... I guess I see what you mean, but you're wrong... it's me :).


Nawww... its me... wanna start something? Don't lets start flame wars now!(I think its hot enough around here...lol)

quote:

...Btw you certainly remember, who was Jesus' brother ? James ? Whose brother was Thomas Didyme (Twin) ? There was quite a fuss about the grave discovrered a couple years ago saying brother of Jesus, son of Joseph, but I don't remember.


Yes, it's claimed that James is/was Jesus' brother.

Peace and Love



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RE: Paranormal - 10/25/2005 8:22:08 PM   
mystictryst


Posts: 125
Joined: 9/6/2005
Status: offline 		At the risk of sounding like a crockpot, here is what I've experienced...

When I was in my teens, me, my sister, and her boyfriend, along with our mother all had a similar experience with in days of one another... The first night, I saw a pioneer woman standing at the foot of my bed. She was reaching toward me. I saw her walk out of my room and into my sisters. In the morning, telling my family over breakfast, my sister's boyfriend saw a male pioneer the same night (he was in my sister's room), around the same time. Several nights later, my sister and mother saw pioneer children playing.

About three months later, I woke up (sleeping now in a different room of the house) and saw a ghostly figure in a white flowing dress at the foot of my bed. I was terrified at her image. I stood almost straight up in the bed and silently screamed at her to get out of our house. I collapsed back into bed and saw her leave my room through the closet just as I pulled the covers over my head. The closet backed onto my mother's room... Minutes later, my mother screamed the most haunting sound I've ever heard and she appeared at my door within seconds... I was getting out of bed and she called to me, hanging onto the door way for her life "Help me... it's trying to get in me..." she called. I grabbed her by the elbow and we locked eyes. I just kept telling her to hold on.. To fight. Within seconds (maybe 30) it was gone. Our family cats, who regularily had kittens in my room previously, wouldn't go near it for love nor money for years. They would stand at the door and hiss their fool heads off.

My last experience was in my last place. My Master and I were getting into bed for the night. The dog and cat hopped up as usual... The cat stared at my dressing chair, tail fluffed. The dog started barking like mad - an extremely unusual behaviour for him... We couldn't calm either of them. Finally, I got up, went to the chair, the cat hissed. I placed my hand on the arm of the chair and quietly asked the spirit to leave. Master was laughing his head off. Within moments, the cat and dog lay silent sleeping, peaceful now knowing the visitor was gone. Master still laughs. He thinks I'm off my nut and the cat and dog just bought into my hysteria.

Master can explain everything away. *lol* I'm sure he'll figure out that gravity thing in no time.. :)

Oh, then there was the time my sister and I saw Ogo Pogo, the Okanogan's "Loch Ness"... We both saw it, I swear, and even though I know better then to believe in prehistoric sea monsters, I can't explain what we saw. We both saw a head emerge, part of a long neck, then it all went down just as oddly as it appeared.

And I look for Bigfoot all the time. He's never stepped forward. But then again, I've never seen a mountain lion either.. *lol*

I love all this stuff, but Masters so DAMN logical and practical he takes all the fun out of it for me... :)

Great topic! Sorry I've rambled!!!

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RE: Paranormal - 10/25/2005 8:53:02 PM   
SadistDave


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Status: offline 		You aren't likely to see the Apocyphal Books any time soon as part of everyday christian dogma.

Once upon a time, there was this thing called The Canon. A bunch of monks and Bishops got together and decided what books were going to be put in the Bible. They based their decision on which books were being read in churches the most throughout Christendom at what times of the year, and what religious teachings were being gleened from them.

Back then the thinking was pretty simple. Without printing presses, all of the books had to be written by hand. There are literally hundreds of pre-Canon religious texts. The Canon sought to condense the Bible for the express purpose of making one coherent book that contained the religious teachings of the christian church. This reduced the amount of time neede to hand copy every Bible, and so get the books out to all the churches in a greatly reduced amount of time.

So the Bible as we know it is, in short, a Readers Digest Condensed Book, or as I like to refer to it, Christian Clift Notes.

The rest of the books and letters that didn't make the cut became the known as the Apocrypha. Now, after centuries of religious dogma developing around christian mythology, the Apocryphal Books have no real place in the religion. Many of them fly in the face of conventional religious thought. If all of the Apocryphal Books were included in the Bible after all this time, it would cause too many problems for the established church. There would be too many religious principles that the church has contived over the centuries that would be thrown into doubt.

Since many parts of the Apocrypha are filled with passages that would seem to deny the idea that Jesus Christ was all warm-n-fuzzy, and more are openly critical of the early christian church, they are not likely to ever gain much favor. That would seriously reduce tithes and Sunday donations.

Occasionally the Vatican will trot them out and consider them individually for adding to the text of the Bible. For some un-mysterious reason though, they always decide not to include them in future versions.

Incidentally, the ossuary that said "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus" or whatever nonsense it was, has been proven conclusively to be a hoax. The man who made it, and sent it around the world on tour was exposed by the government of Israel. He was also exposed for forging numerous other articafts. All artifacts that have passed through his hands have been cast into doubt, and the ones currently owned by the Israeli government are being systematicly checked for authenticity so they can either be verified or destroyed.

-SD-

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RE: Paranormal - 10/25/2005 10:11:09 PM   
quietkitten


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I don't judge anyone's experiences, I have had a few odd ones myself.
I lived in a very "active" house for 5 months (it was as long as I could stand it)
My personal belongings would go missing and show up days later.. I would hear strange whispers and feel creepy crawlies on my skin. The most unusual incident was when my entire purse went missing for two weeks... I finally had gotten all my cards starightened out and cancelled my credit cards.. then the purse suddenly appeared hanging from my shower head.
I lived by myself at the time..
I also saw my Dad the night after he died. He was standing in the bedroom shaking his finger at me and looked angry.. I decided he was unhappy with the decisions being made about his belongings. I did what I felt he wanted and never saw him again. 6 months later when I was driving on a dark road I heard his voice in my head saying "STOP NOW!"
I did so, and just avoided being crunched by a freight train.
Do I believe?? Yes.... but I don't expect others to do the same.

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RE: Paranormal - 10/26/2005 1:48:02 AM   
frenchpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave
Incidentally, the ossuary that said "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus" or whatever nonsense it was, has been proven conclusively to be a hoax.

Oh. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that it didn't makethe front pages...

Well, I wasn't really asking about all of the gospels, because for a time (a couple centuries ?) it was a popular litterary genre, but about those that are considered to contain some information worth considering.

And yes Maccabees are in the catholic canon, and yes it's certainly worth reading as I think it contains the first allusion to an after life (could be wrong).

< Message edited by frenchpet -- 10/26/2005 1:50:13 AM >

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RE: Paranormal - 10/26/2005 4:37:52 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

Since many parts of the Apocrypha are filled with passages that would seem to deny the idea that Jesus Christ was all warm-n-fuzzy, and more are openly critical of the early christian church, they are not likely to ever gain much favor. That would seriously reduce tithes and Sunday donations.


I always find it quite amusing that dogma dictates the warm fuzzies - I mean, a Man with such power wouldn't command authority? And imagine Jesus as a teenager? People think that He wouldn't have hormones? Its the whole... dainty, long hair, blue eyes falicy... I mean, who really knows? He was a carpenter for goodness sake - His hands would have been like sandpaper...

Peace and Love

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RE: Paranormal - 10/26/2005 5:13:52 AM   
frenchpet


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Status: offline 		I found what I was looking for. Actually googling "apocrypha" gives more information than I would ever want to know. In comparative-religion.com are translations of the epistle of Thomas, which says

"IV. 1 After that again he went through the village, and a child ran and dashed against his shoulder. And Jesus was provoked and said unto him: Thou shalt not finish thy course (lit. go all thy way). And immediately he fell down and died. But certain when they saw what was done said: Whence was this young child born, for that every word of his is an accomplished work? And the parents of him that was dead came unto Joseph, and blamed him, saying: Thou that hast such a child canst not dwell with us in the village: or do thou teach him to bless and not to curse: for he slayeth our children."

I'd be surprised if this one ever makes it into a canon...

Thanks for all the information btw Dark~Angel, always interesting.

Do you know Prieur and Mordillat ? Have you read one of their books ? They are hated by many christians, but all they do in the book I've read of them is asking good questions.

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RE: Paranormal - 10/26/2005 6:22:33 AM   
FangsNfeet


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Status: offline 		Back to Ghost,

For some, the concept of being gone forever is to upseting. Imagine not being able to avenge your murderer or protect a love one anymore.

In the movie The Sixth Sense, you had the scene where a young girl who just wanted to protect her little sister from the same fate. In the movie Dragon Fly, you had a mother who just wanted her daughter to return home to the Father. You then have the movie What Lies Beneath where a ghost simply wanted to avenge her death. I'm sure we all remember the movie Ghost where the guy wanted to find his murderer and take care of his girl friend.

Everyone would like to take care of "Unfinished Bussiness" before departing from this world. Some people try to stay to busy to have time to die. However, the idea dosen't work. We die, and what we leave behind is what we leave behind. Unable to do a damn thing about it.

If so many ppl could hunt ghost and communicate with them, then why haven't any crimes been solved pretaining to murders by people who claim to communitcate with the dead? Not one person was ever able to avenge there death by communicating with the living. The murders solved where done by people who could pick up on what was left behind.

Another problem is that to many ppl are unable to let go of loved ones. They perfer the idea that they can still talk to someone long after they have died. They think the can make peace or restitution this way. Unfortunatly they are really just making and ass out of themselves walking blindly into gullibility being filled with SHIT that's not going to make anything better.

I can go to any psychic or medium and talk about how I want to speak with my Dead Father who was killed by a Drunk Driver. I'm sure the spirit talking person can tell me all sorts of things and give me messages and insight about my Dad. The only problem is that my Dad is still alive and was never hit by a drunk driver. It's the easiest way to bust someone.

Other than that, I love telling ppl how someone died here. The spirit talker all of a sudden begins feeling the dead person who never existed in the first place.

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RE: Paranormal - 10/26/2005 7:54:55 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: frenchpet

I found what I was looking for. Actually googling "apocrypha" gives more information than I would ever want to know. In comparative-religion.com are translations of the epistle of Thomas, which says

"IV. 1 After that again he went through the village, and a child ran and dashed against his shoulder. And Jesus was provoked and said unto him: Thou shalt not finish thy course (lit. go all thy way). And immediately he fell down and died. But certain when they saw what was done said: Whence was this young child born, for that every word of his is an accomplished work? And the parents of him that was dead came unto Joseph, and blamed him, saying: Thou that hast such a child canst not dwell with us in the village: or do thou teach him to bless and not to curse: for he slayeth our children."

I'd be surprised if this one ever makes it into a canon...


Yes, I would be surprised if it did as well. Its very interesting if you read through though as it is down to, as you said, interpretation. If you read this particular section quickly, it could be an interpretation that Jesus murdered the child. However, further reading and interpretation could lead it to Jesus placing out a warning... its all how one read the texts.

quote:

Thanks for all the information btw Dark~Angel, always interesting.


...lol... anytime...

quote:

Do you know Prieur and Mordillat ? Have you read one of their books ? They are hated by many christians, but all they do in the book I've read of them is asking good questions.



I know of them, but not had the oppotunity(yet) to see/read their works. They are definately on the 'to do list' though.
I am currently reading 'The Jesus Mysteries' and 'Jesus and the Lost Goddess' by Freke and Gandy.

Peace and Love

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RE: Paranormal - 10/27/2005 4:52:40 PM   
amazonlea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

How is involving yourself in a religion that says you need to have a personal relationship with a dead guy not seeking out the paranormal?

Indeed, didn't JC even say that the if someone believed in the power of God, that they could move mountains and perform other feats of supernatural origin like exorcism and faith healing?

So, I'm mighty confused by that statement. Seems to me that as a Christian cult member, it's your duty to seek out the supernatural and involve yourself in the paranormal for the glory of your god.

-SD-



Actually someone probably already responded but since I was cyber-stalking you I thought I would toss in a few cents. The Catholic Church is pretty strict about those metaphysical things like ghosts, psychic readings, faith healing, and horoscopes. Most of it is in the realm of menial sins. They don't say that they don't believe, just that you should steer clear because you might run into a bad one. And then they would have to send out the excorcists and they really don't like people knowing who those guys are.

Now there is a f&*Ed up job.... pea soup and disembodied voices... Though they did have a pretty rockin' convention in Rome this year.

And since when has the church made sense? You are trying to apply logic to religion. Duh!!

B



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RE: Paranormal - 10/28/2005 10:30:06 AM   
SadistDave


Posts: 801
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		The power of Steven Hawking propels thee.
The power of Steven Hawking propels thee.
The power of Steven Hawking propels thee.


-SD-

(in reply to amazonlea)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Paranormal - 10/28/2005 11:21:55 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		Hehehe. I think I just accidentally spit soda on my keyboard while I was reading that.

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to SadistDave)
Profile   Post #: 60
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