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submission is power? no yes, maybe.... - 10/24/2005 10:13:30 AM   
slavedesires


Posts: 669
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		DISCLAIMER (i have learned to give this now when quoting others) ... these quotes ARE NOT mine...but...i would like opinions on what others think......
thank you in advance.

"I agree that being submissive is an emotion and a need to give pleasure,
to serve and to give up your power."

"I don't see submission as giving up power. Submission is a power that feeds
dominance just as dominance is a power that feeds submission. Each is the
fuel that causes the other to manifest. When one does not have the other, they
lay dormant.

Submission is no less powerful than dominance, but the common misconception
is to equate submission with weakness and that is wrong. Without submission,
there is no dominance occurring. They are equal and interdependant."


_____________________________

i speak only my personal opinion, sometimes O/ours.

"i am the keeper of fragile things and i have kept what is indisolvable."
....the greatest gift.....vulnerability
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RE: submission is power? no yes, maybe.... - 10/24/2005 10:19:12 AM   
wolfinside


Posts: 74
Joined: 10/7/2005
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As for me, I think those quotes hit the nail right on the head.

I also think it is clearer to use the word "active partner" rather than dominant and "passive partner" rather than submissive.

If you use those words rather than the traditional ones, I think it strips away all of the posturing attitude that sometimes gets mixed up in this lifestyle. And can lead to a better understanding of where people fit into the lifestyle.


Wolf



(in reply to slavedesires)
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RE: submission is power? no yes, maybe.... - 10/24/2005 10:23:21 AM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		Power is an illusion.

There are only people who choose to interact in ways that please them.

Most of the bs we see here could be avoided if folks could accept that.

(in reply to slavedesires)
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RE: submission is power? no yes, maybe.... - 10/24/2005 10:34:09 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Being who I am is power. I am a very powerful person. I do not lose any of that power when I am owned. In fact, as I grow, I become MORE powerful.

This is why I do not use the term "power exchange" to define relationships in Ds. To me what occurs is "authority transfer."

I transfer all ultimate authority to a master. I still have my power, I simply do not decide how it is expressed.

(in reply to slavedesires)
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RE: submission is power? no yes, maybe.... - 10/24/2005 10:34:53 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wolfinside
I also think it is clearer to use the word "active partner" rather than dominant and "passive partner" rather than submissive.

Except that a submissive is rarely a passive partner. Not sure what makes you think that helps?

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RE: submission is power? no yes, maybe.... - 10/24/2005 10:47:24 AM   
wolfinside


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Joined: 10/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2


quote:

ORIGINAL: wolfinside
I also think it is clearer to use the word "active partner" rather than dominant and "passive partner" rather than submissive.

Except that a submissive is rarely a passive partner. Not sure what makes you think that helps?



By "passive partner" I only meant that during a "scene" or in the bedroom a submissive would not be "running the show", she would be the one having things done to her.

Maybe "experiencer" would be a better definition.

I am speaking from my own life experience only, but I am the "take charge" kind of dom who takes control of the sex etc with a "sub" telling her what to do, and when and doing things to her. But that does not make me superior, or god like etc. It just makes me the one who likes doing things that way, and her the one that likes having things done that way to her.

Again, these are my experiences, your mileage may vary.


Wolf


(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
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RE: submission is power? no yes, maybe.... - 10/24/2005 10:50:08 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wolfinside
By "passive partner" I only meant that during a "scene" or in the bedroom a submissive would not be "running the show", she would be the one having things done to her.

Except that a lot of scenes have the sub doing work and being active, and this is more about play dynamics, not relationship dynamics. Play dynamics are certainly valid, but if you're limiting the discussion to bottoms and tops I think it doesn't get the whole picture and really isn't what the topic is going for.

quote:

I am speaking from my own life experience only, but I am the "take charge" kind of dom who takes control of the sex etc with a "sub" telling her what to do, and when and doing things to her. But that does not make me superior, or god like etc. It just makes me the one who likes doing things that way, and her the one that likes having things done that way to her.

Yeah I'm not into micro managing. I'm into taking on his issues, his problems, being able to get stuff delegated to me so I can get it done and allow HIM to relax and enjoy more.

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RE: submission is power? no yes, maybe.... - 10/24/2005 11:08:29 AM   
wolfinside


Posts: 74
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2


quote:

ORIGINAL: wolfinside
By "passive partner" I only meant that during a "scene" or in the bedroom a submissive would not be "running the show", she would be the one having things done to her.

Except that a lot of scenes have the sub doing work and being active, and this is more about play dynamics, not relationship dynamics. Play dynamics are certainly valid, but if you're limiting the discussion to bottoms and tops I think it doesn't get the whole picture and really isn't what the topic is going for.

quote:

I am speaking from my own life experience only, but I am the "take charge" kind of dom who takes control of the sex etc with a "sub" telling her what to do, and when and doing things to her. But that does not make me superior, or god like etc. It just makes me the one who likes doing things that way, and her the one that likes having things done that way to her.

Yeah I'm not into micro managing. I'm into taking on his issues, his problems, being able to get stuff delegated to me so I can get it done and allow HIM to relax and enjoy more.




Maybe the terms "leader" (dom) and "follower" would be better. Because a follower can still be someone who does things as directed by the leader?

My point is that in my life, the woman I have been with call themselves "submissive". They are harldy passive people, but with a their man, they prefer for him to take charge and be the leader.

And at the same time, these woman were hardly "powerless" in my relationship with them. It would be very foolish for me to think that I have all the power in a relationship with someone whom I love.

The fact that I love them, (or even for that matter that I love fucking them) gives them tremendous power. And visa versa.

Wanting "control" or needing to give up "control" in certain situations does not (in my opinion) translate as being either "powerful" or "powerless"

The need to take control does not make one superiour, no more than the need to give up control makes on inferior.


Wolf



< Message edited by wolfinside -- 10/24/2005 11:14:31 AM >

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
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RE: submission is power? no yes, maybe.... - 10/24/2005 11:34:25 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wolfinside
Maybe the terms "leader" (dom) and "follower" would be better. Because a follower can still be someone who does things as directed by the leader?

Except that dominants often follow a subs lead/direction. Many wise dominants use their subs in this way.
quote:


My point is that in my life, the woman I have been with call themselves "submissive". They are harldy passive people, but with a their man, they prefer for him to take charge and be the leader.

That's a particular type of submissive, many submissives are exactly the opposite.
quote:


The fact that I love them, (or even for that matter that I love fucking them) gives them tremendous power. And visa versa.

Hmmm does someone being in love with me or wanting something from me give me power and/or over them? Not necessarily.

Even if someone doesn't want anything from me, that in no way means I lack power.
quote:


Wanting "control" or needing to give up "control" in certain situations does not (in my opinion) translate as being either "powerful" or "powerless"

That I completely agree with.

(in reply to wolfinside)
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RE: submission is power? no yes, maybe.... - 10/24/2005 11:47:48 AM   
Quivver


Posts: 1953
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline 		There is power in Submissives, yet no power in being Submissive.
The power is a well-greased gear, balanced and kept in working order submitting to the use that fit's its form. It only becomes an issue if
not properly oiled or ends up rigged to function in a foreign environment.

Q

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(in reply to slavedesires)
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RE: submission is power? no yes, maybe.... - 10/24/2005 11:49:58 AM   
wolfinside


Posts: 74
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline
I believe power in consensual relationships springs from imbalance of want/desire/need.

If you love/want/desire someone more than they love/want/desire you, believe me, they have more power in the relationship no matter what your title is.

I can call myself "the master of the known universe" but if I desire someone more than they desire me, then they have more power in that relationship than I.

Power in a consensual relationship does not derive from a persons title or preference for certain activities.

Anything else is just self delusion.



Wolf




(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
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RE: submission is power? no yes, maybe.... - 10/24/2005 1:05:00 PM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		Nodding,this is true in a rather sick way.

I have seen people really bend over backwards to please someone they thought could give them things no one else could.

(in reply to wolfinside)
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RE: submission is power? no yes, maybe.... - 10/24/2005 4:12:41 PM   
littleone35


Posts: 2828
Joined: 2/17/2005
Status: offline 		Now this might sound strange but i become more powerful in my submission. It was a choice i made to let someoneelse take the lead. it is kinda hard to explain but in submitting i find power. Mayb it is the power to make him happy or the power to please. Like i said hard to explain.

littleone, just rambling on.

(in reply to JustaTop)
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RE: submission is power? no yes, maybe.... - 10/24/2005 4:44:52 PM   
wolfinside


Posts: 74
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline

ARTHUR:
I am your king!

WOMAN:
Well, I didn't vote for you.

ARTHUR:
You don't vote for kings.

WOMAN:
Well, how did you become King, then?

ARTHUR:
The Lady of the Lake,...
[angels sing]
...her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur.
[singing stops]
That is why I am your king!

DENNIS:
Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

ARTHUR:
Be quiet!

DENNIS:
Well, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!

ARTHUR:
Shut up!

DENNIS:
I mean, if I went 'round saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!

ARTHUR:
Shut up, will you? Shut up!

DENNIS:
Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.

ARTHUR:
Shut up!

DENNIS:
Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

ARTHUR:
Bloody peasant!

DENNIS:
Oh, what a give-away. Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about. Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you?



Wolf


(in reply to littleone35)
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RE: submission is power? no yes, maybe.... - 10/24/2005 5:34:05 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Wolfinside:
quote:

If you love/want/desire someone more than they love/want/desire you, believe me, they have more power in the relationship no matter what your title is.


This is true. It's an imbalance then can be exciting, then turns frustrating.

(in reply to wolfinside)
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RE: submission is power? no yes, maybe.... - 10/24/2005 8:17:34 PM   
Vancouver_cinful


Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wolfinside

DENNIS:
Well, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!


Now I finally have the perfect comeback for the next cyberdom wannabee that IMs me claiming to be a master.

Dang, I love Monty Python!! Thanks for the laugh.

Cin

_____________________________

Cin

quote:


My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

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RE: submission is power? no yes, maybe.... - 10/24/2005 10:28:15 PM   
wolfinside


Posts: 74
Joined: 10/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful


quote:

ORIGINAL: wolfinside

DENNIS:
Well, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!


Now I finally have the perfect comeback for the next cyberdom wannabee that IMs me claiming to be a master.

Dang, I love Monty Python!! Thanks for the laugh.

Cin


You're welcome. I too, love the Monty.

Posturing cyber doms remind me of the character Jon Lovitz played on Saturday Night Live.

You know the one, ..... The guy dressed in the red devil out fit.

"bow down and worship MEEEEEEEE"

"Obey meeeeeeee, become my willing thrall, and revel in strict obadience!"

LOL

Always broke me up.


Wolf



< Message edited by wolfinside -- 10/24/2005 10:31:15 PM >

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)
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RE: submission is power? no yes, maybe.... - 10/25/2005 7:27:57 PM   
Rommel


Posts: 8
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		Submission is extremely powerful unto itself. Don't believe it? Story to follow:

One night long ago a little goth boy went a walking. He found himself in the bowels of an abandoned ship on NY City's West Side. It was a dark, sinnister party and all the eye candy came out to play on this foggy summer evening. In the midst of the crowe, through the clove cigarette smoke and despite drinking all the booze that this little booze-chuck could, the little goth boy saw, to his amazement, one of the most beautiful women he had ever seen. She was with a sort of industrial cowboy and was being led from deck to deck and room to room by a rope attached to a pony bit. Yes, sports fans, she was a pony girl like the little goth boy could never even have imagined (and still can't mind you). The little Goth boy danced and hopped around and stared discreetly and turned on his charmer ray and shot it right at her. Somehow, it just kept bouncing off and hitting other girls. The little Goth boy eventually gave up and went back to the ray gun store the following day, pondering how such a vixen could have moved him so with such a stunning display of single minded loyalty to her factory cowboy. Even in her blatant submission, she was as powerful a machination as the little gear head had ever encountered. Now. If you circulate yourself from time to time, you will eventually run into other such examples of stunning submissive power. Believe me, everyone else in the room notices too, for we want most what we cannot have.....

(in reply to wolfinside)
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RE: submission is power? no yes, maybe.... - 10/25/2005 7:59:58 PM   
Aeroil


Posts: 4
Joined: 6/24/2005
Status: offline 		I know a certain Dom who thinks I am weak because I'm a submissive.

I don't doubt he'd change his tune in a hurry if I had him by the throat.

*laughs* but that would be scaring him, afterall, not real diplomacy.

anyway, wierd story aside, D/s is called a power "exchange" for a fairly good reason, the submissive relinquishes or reduces their authority to drive the interaction between the two people. In any relationship, both partners have the power to bring it crashing down if they so choose, similarly, submissives always have the power to take their gift of authority back from the dominant, permanently or for merely a few seconds. Both partners have different kinds of power, neither really has 'more', just different ways to apply it.

Regarding desire, wolfinside, you're close, but not everyone is dragged around by the scruff of their neck by their desire, that's definately a factor.

< Message edited by Aeroil -- 10/25/2005 8:02:35 PM >

(in reply to Rommel)
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RE: submission is power? no yes, maybe.... - 10/27/2005 7:06:13 PM   
harmony3709


Posts: 292
Joined: 11/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

"I agree that being submissive is an emotion and a need to give pleasure,
to serve and to give up your power."


This I do not agree with, as least as "submission" applies to me. It is definitely not an emotion, but much more than that. It is part of my make-up, part of my character, just part of who I am. Emotions come and go with your mood and so on, but my nature, the part of me that needs to submit, is always part of me.

quote:

"I don't see submission as giving up power. Submission is a power that feeds
dominance just as dominance is a power that feeds submission. Each is the
fuel that causes the other to manifest. When one does not have the other, they
lay dormant.


I agree with this in part. Yes, in my opinion, submission does feed the dominance, and vice versa, it is a cycle.

I do not see myself as getting power from submitting. Being Master's slave, I have agreed to give up whatever power, control, authority, etc., that he desires to have. What I do gain from this though, is strength. NOT that I am weak......because I am not and yes, I am one who believes that it takes strength to submit. But I am that much more strong in other areas of my life, and in my submission. Part of that comes from fulfilling a need that I have -- the need to be a submissive -- and part of that strength comes directly from my Master. I feed off of and.......absorb, if you will.......the strength that he gives me.

So is submission power? No -- not over my Master. Yes -- over myself.

Blessed be,
harmony

(in reply to slavedesires)
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