RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term?

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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/26/2005 5:16:54 PM

severinseverin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Perhaps from your perspective. From my perspective, people are being analytical which I consider to be a very good thing.

- LA

We must all let the logos out to frolic now and then. I suppose that if the logos examines the eros too carefully, the eros might get a bit paranoid, though.

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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/26/2005 5:22:40 PM

severinseverin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD

hmmmm very narrow minded of this author.
I disagree with the thesis based off of My Own life.

Bear in mind that the author is attempting to refute a widely accepted thought that originally arose from the very same works that he uses. After all, there is no 'sade-ism' without Sade, and no 'masoch-ism' without Masoch. Well, there is... but they would have different names, and the term sadomasochism might not have come to be.

quote:

fastlane Id prefer whaking your wanker till it stopped
cumming and you dry ejaculated and cunvulsed begging
for numbness wit a smile you closet masocist. bet that lil
pecker wouldent piss for a pot nor piddle in pleasure a while.

This is the only philosophical discussion that has physically aroused me to any degree. What a nice forum!

Now what would happen if one could intellectually masturbate and physically masturbate at the same time? An explosion that would case a disturbance in that which separates the sensory world from the Platonic realm of pure idea?

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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/26/2005 5:46:12 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: severinseverin

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Perhaps from your perspective. From my perspective, people are being analytical which I consider to be a very good thing.

- LA

We must all let the logos out to frolic now and then. I suppose that if the logos examines the eros too carefully, the eros might get a bit paranoid, though.

Agreed severinseverin... speak so slightly
Severin, down on your bended knee
Taste the whip, in love not given lightly
Taste the whip, now plead for me

I guess I'm in a singing mood tonight ;-)

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/26/2005 7:46:44 PM

girl4you2

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sadism is about pain given, pure and simple. does it matter to the sadist if he pleases the one he inflicts pain on? i don't think so, in my experiences. it's about pain, and that makes them have pleasure. as to whether or not they are paired with someone who needs that pain makes no difference. just my experiences. sadists are kinda like attorneys; both like to inflict pain, only they cause different forms of pain, unless you've a very sadistic attorney, who does both.

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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/26/2005 9:22:20 PM

MistressDREAD

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I need bear nothing in mind sev rn2
the tempt is as unplyable as the names
to the effect. which came first?
Sade or Sado? ~smiles~wickedly.....

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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/26/2005 11:59:14 PM

MstLauren

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quote:

The sadist of Sade immediately loses interest if the receiving party experiences pleasure from their activities.

Yes but, we are talking about consensual activities here. At least I thought we were. If I was a sadist in that sense I guess I would have to get a job as a prison guard or maybe try my hand at being a serial killer.

Seriously, someone could always find a partner whose need to submit and serve was so strong that they would be willing to belong to a Sadist even if they were not masochistic.
But if a masochist enjoys pain it isn't pain.. does that mean they are not a true masochist?

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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/27/2005 5:48:01 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

Sadist even if they were not masochistic.
But if a masochist enjoys pain it isn't pain.. does that mean they are not a true masochist?

For me, a masochist is one who derives direct pleasure from physical stimuli most people consider painful.

For me, a sadist is one who derives direct pleasure causing pain in another.

An unethical sadist is a very dangerous and scary person.

An ethical sadist is a very dangerous and scary person you can trust.

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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/27/2005 8:59:24 AM

severinseverin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD
to the effect. which came first?
Sade or Sado? ~smiles~wickedly.....

Actually, this is part of the point - 'sadism' is a term based upon a very particular image: the horrifying accounts found in the literature of Marquis de Sade. In some sense, this image is still very much entwined with the word, and thus the meaning of this particular word (as accepted in general) fails to paint a picture of the reality of what it intends to.

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RE: Sadomasochism - a nonsensical term? - 10/27/2005 9:27:41 AM

severinseverin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstLauren

Yes but, we are talking about consensual activities here.

There are spoilers regarding the story Venus in Furs by Sacher-Masoch below.

Another good point. The sadist of Masoch acts in accordance with a contract that is agreed to by both parties. As we witnessed in Venus in Furs, however, a contract can have much more of an effect than the slave intended. Witness Wanda's transformation from the Aphrodite figure who loves for the moment to the cold sadist who is enticed by her male lover into letting him whip poor Severin as she watches. A contract that originates from supersensual desire, but transforms into a situation that takes Severin to the very edge of supersensualism.

In other words, the idea that we in the BDSM community associate with 'sadism' is more similar to Masoch's ideal than to Sade's ideal.

Leopold von Sacher-Masoch was known for this kind of thing in real life. There was always a contract that he would attempt to get his wife (and other lovers...) to sign, essentially giving her complete control over him. Perhaps his literature is a depiction of the kind of transformation that he wanted her to have. After all, he apparently was rather insistent on her taking other lovers, and she was having no part of that.

How is this interesting, apart from an example of 19th century perversion*? The psychologists in the late 19th and early 20th century coined the terms which we are now discussing based upon the lives and works of Masoch and Sade.

Actually, it is not quite as fair as this. Masoch is largely brushed over as a mere compliment of Sade.

Recall those horrific stories in 120 Days of Sodom. Now consider the fact that the general view of so called 'sadomasochism' is based upon these tales of non-consensual torture. We in the BDSM universe have a finer appreciation of such concepts. However, I think that the world's view of what we do is shaped by these early considerations.

As I see it, there are two interesting puzzles.
1.) Were the psychologists incorrect in their early formulation of 'sadomasochism' ?
2.) How pervasive is this early formulation in the modern world?

Puzzle number 1 is attempted in this literary criticism by Deleuze. Puzzle number 2 is probably more relevant for this thread. However, I would dearly love it if some people that are familiar with Venus in Furs or 120 Days of Sodom would post their literary opinions on the matter.

* - I use perversion in an entirely non-derogatory sense.

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