Can't be done ?

Can't be done ? (Full Version)

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Termyn8or -> Can't be done ? (5/28/2008 10:58:49 PM)
A scientist in Cleveland, Ohio has come up with what seems to be the eternally sought after perpetual motion machine. Look for it sometime this year, patents have been applied for and it has been running for five years now with no intervention of any kind. Now the requirements for a perpetual motion machine are pretty strict, for one it must not use heat from the ambient air. If it could, those glass figures with the alcohol in them could be considered such, or even a radiometer. That is not how it works. Now a valid perpetual motion machine can be started by an externel force or other energy. However it must then remain in motion perpetually, without any external influence. Look for this to be in science news soon, as soon as the design is protected it will be announced, and even if a patent is issued that in and of itself will make it public. I have recieved a relatively detailed description of the machine from someone who saw it, and I am thinking about just how it works. I have come up with a scientific supposition here, any successful perpetual motion machine must operate in a vacuum and be adiabatic. It must not lose heat energy. Losing any energy amounts to failure, all you can hope for though, is an equilibrium. From how it was described to me, consider an absoption type refrigerator, but then consider all the heat it pumps out of the cabinet plus all the waste heat is reused. That is technically not perpetual though, because it gets energy from the ambient temperature of the air if nothing else. In such a system just opening the door would provide the energy. When the warmer air rushes in, it is used to fuel the refrigeration engine. So it doesn't qualify. Even if you were to consider pumping heat as real work, as in force through distance, it still does not cut it. But what if someone made some refinements to a Stirling engine or something, and the only cooling involved was to cause a temperature differential to make it run. What if someone found a way to reclaim all the heat, and you start the thing with a butane lighter and it runs for the rest of your life ? Y'knoi we got transistors, ICs, cathode ray tubes and a whole bunch of more cool shit, and none of it is really a milestone, IMO. Make just one perpetual motion machine and that is a milestone. Let me say why. Everything else is built on something else, except when you go way back. The invention of the transistor, well there were already semiconductor diodes. You can be surprised going back. Fancy new car have a lockup torque convertor and overdrive ? That is 1930s technology. Think I am kidding ? If this really proves out to really be a perpetual motion machine that works, it is an advancement in a different direction. The design has been submitted and is under review, and so far so good. If this proves out to be the real McCoy I am sure it will make the news, probably put Cleveland back on the map. But under peer review this guy's math must prove the he has actually achieved a net gain of energy, no matter how infitesimal. Hell it might take take them a year just to sort that out. My buddy knows the guy who is funding this, and that is how he is privvy to the information. The guy is successful, not known to chase foul balls. This time someone may have got it right. I guess time will tell. T

Alumbrado -> RE: Can't be done ? (5/28/2008 11:25:59 PM)
What's he going to do with the million bucks?

Termyn8or -> RE: Can't be done ? (5/28/2008 11:31:08 PM)
A million ? It took alot more to build this. T

DomAviator -> RE: Can't be done ? (5/29/2008 1:32:51 AM)
Absolutely not possible... This falls under the "special carb that gets 200 mpg" or "pill that makes your car run on water" category. Perpetual motion is a physical impossibility - never mind a machine it cant be done even at the atomic level, hence radioactive decay... The First Law of Thermodynamics states that energy can be neither created nor destroyed and taht the sum of enegy and work will equal zero" and the Second Law of Thermodynamics states that energy systems will increase their entropy... There will be frictional losses, and even in space there is no such thing as a perfect vacuum. (Hence the idea of solar winds, and the concept of solar sails to propel deep space probes.) If there was even a possibility of perpetual motion, it wouldnt come out of Cleveland, to be blunt it would come out of Houston, where we have 11,000 of the best minds in America working on such things at NASA alone... Cant be done, no how no way... Keep your $$$ in your pocket, Im sure this inventor will be seeking capital soon... LOL

Rule -> RE: Can't be done ? (5/29/2008 2:20:49 AM)
I know about one person that got a bit close and he happened to fall out of a window at fatal height. Suicide, they say. Murder, I suspect.

JulieorSarah -> RE: Can't be done ? (5/29/2008 4:31:27 AM)
I'm no scientist, but if this is valid could this be the first step to replacing carbon fuels, in a portable practical way? if yes this is huge!

Irishknight -> RE: Can't be done ? (5/29/2008 4:38:59 AM)
Hmmm..... Laws of physics aside, rhis could still prove to be an amazing breakthrough. Even if it turnsout not to be a perpetual motion machine, it could be an amazingly useful piece of equipment. For that reason alone, I hope these crazy inventors never stop trying.

farglebargle -> RE: Can't be done ? (5/29/2008 4:40:55 AM)
NASA couldn't take a shit without Lock*mart and Boing leading the way. They don't call it "Need Another Seven Astronauts" for nothing.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Can't be done ? (5/29/2008 4:49:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JulieorSarah I'm no scientist, but if this is valid could this be the first step to replacing carbon fuels, in a portable practical way? if yes this is huge! Wasn't the same thing said about cold fusion, once upon a time?

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Can't be done ? (5/29/2008 6:55:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Irishknight Hmmm..... Laws of physics aside, rhis could still prove to be an amazing breakthrough. Even if it turnsout not to be a perpetual motion machine, it could be an amazingly useful piece of equipment. For that reason alone, I hope these crazy inventors never stop trying. Laws of physics aside... hahaha, don't work like that. No matter how many times termin8or posts about some new amazing invention by some grocery clerk in Schenectady, ain't no gettin' around thermo.

Irishknight -> RE: Can't be done ? (5/29/2008 7:00:40 AM)
I realize that we can't set the laws of physics aside. The intent of the statement remains the same. Whether or not it is possible, we need to encourage the inventors to keep trying. There is no telling what else they may discover.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Can't be done ? (5/29/2008 7:03:16 AM)
Yeah it reminds me of Stan Meyer. Anyone remember him? He's the guy that claimed to have built a device that would allow internal combustion engines to run on water. Of course it was total bullshit.

Termyn8or -> RE: Can't be done ? (5/29/2008 7:08:35 AM)
First of all I understand the principles involved and such a machine is possible if somehow a way is found to utilize all or most of the wasted energy. And we have to remember something, five years it not perpetual. In fact none of us will ever know if it is because we ourselves are not perpetual. Any such device is technically a novelty. By definition you can't use the power for any practical purpose because all it can do, if it is found that it has actually been done, is to conserve energy. Energy still cannot be created out of nothing, and that is not going to change. However it could be an important novelty. The principles used in it's design could give future engineers alot of ideas that might make more efficient machines. Smokey Yunick surmised that most of the power of gasoline is wasted in the form of heat in an internal combustion engine, and went on to build a small two cylinder engine that performed like a V8. An internal combustion engine is less than 20% efficient. Take it to 40% and we get double what we are getting now. Alot of people have done alot of innovating over the years, but usually it is met with obscurity. I think the Wankel engine is cool as hell, but for practical use I don't know. It has been tried and it seems a Wankel is just about impossible to rebuild. But that's not the point. As we approach the point in time where we actually have to pay for gasoline, there is a hunt for an alternative. But we keep hitting one dead end after another. So even if the guy's machine proves out, and he gets his million and a patent, it is not the cureall for our problems. If we want to use power there needs to be a source, and this machine simply ain't it. But if some of it's principles are applied there can be a benefit. Here is the base mechanical problem involved with perpetual motion : friction. Friction can be thought of as a drag on energy, but since it cannot be created nor destroyed what happens ? Friction produces heat. I did not say creates heat. But what if you could use all that heat effectively ? Therein lies the secret. I am not saying I could do it, by no means, but I refuse to say it can't be done. I will be watching. I am very interested in whether this is the real thing or not. The whole trick is to be totally adibiatic. And I mean even if you use the surrounding air to cool something, like a Stirling cycle engine, you are wasting energy. There are a million other things you can't do, and the problem becomes finding out what you can do. Five years is impressive, and I for one would like to know just how that was accomplished. Even if it really is not perpetual, I think it would be very interesting. I hope the guy gets his patent, mainly because that makes the information public. I would probably be among the first to download the patent. I will be pushing my buddy to get me a visit to this lab to see for myself. If I can accomplish that, it will be a very interesting day. T

pahunkboy -> RE: Can't be done ? (5/29/2008 7:12:00 AM)
Back in school I wrote a paper in this. It was a terrible paper. lol.

Rule -> RE: Can't be done ? (5/29/2008 7:58:03 AM)
FR I agree with Hk: any perpetual motion machine is prohibited from violating the laws of thermodynamics. Nevertheless in fact various such perpetual motion machines that do not violate the laws of thermodynamics already exist: wind mills and oil pumps for example. If it costs more to tap into an energy source such as wind or oil than is gained from them neither windmills nor oil pumps would have been built. Use x litres of oil to pump up a larger amount of y litres of oil and have a profit of y - x litres; next use the x litres again to repeat the process ad infinitum. (Or until either the oil runs out, or the pump breaks down.) So find an energy source, think of a way to access it and there you are.

DomAviator -> RE: Can't be done ? (5/29/2008 9:01:28 AM)
Give up on perpetual motion. Work on alchemy instead much more practical... LOL What if you could maintain a perfect vacuum and use all the heat of friction? What if my dick grew feet, hopped off on command, and could run to the store and pick up cigarettes and beer for me??? Aint gonna happen... Wankel engines were used widely and rebuilt regularly on German warbirds... The the jet age came along....

Irishknight -> RE: Can't be done ? (5/29/2008 9:09:16 AM)
Wankels were also used in Mazda cars for a while. Not the same exact ones that were in the planes but a design based on the wankel. They were notoriously hated by the mechanics around here who had to rebuild them when they screwed up. I wonder if the wheel came about as an early perpetual motion attempt.

DomAviator -> RE: Can't be done ? (5/29/2008 9:21:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Irishknight Wankels were also used in Mazda cars for a while. Not the same exact ones that were in the planes but a design based on the wankel. They were notoriously hated by the mechanics around here who had to rebuild them when they screwed up. I wonder if the wheel came about as an early perpetual motion attempt. Yeah I forgot about the madzas! I had to rebuild a wankel when I went to school to get my airframe and powerplant mechanic ticket. They were on the FAA curriculum standards along with a lot of other useless shit like dope and fabric, (even fabric covered planes now use ceconite and resin not the old cotton linen with nitrate dope that explodes from the static electricity in your hair!) oxyacetylene welding of chrome moly tubing (its TIG welded in the real world), and woodworking! (Who builds spruce airplanes since Howard Hughes?) The wankel is a really shitty design... Great in theory , shitty in practice but entirely rebuildable..

popeye1250 -> RE: Can't be done ? (5/29/2008 9:31:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator Give up on perpetual motion. Work on alchemy instead much more practical... LOL What if you could maintain a perfect vacuum and use all the heat of friction? What if my dick grew feet, hopped off on command, and could run to the store and pick up cigarettes and beer for me??? Aint gonna happen... Wankel engines were used widely and rebuilt regularly on German warbirds... The the jet age came along.... Now THAT we need to fund research on!

Alumbrado -> RE: Can't be done ? (5/29/2008 12:53:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator Yeah I forgot about the madzas! I had to rebuild a wankel when I went to school to get my airframe and powerplant mechanic ticket. They were on the FAA curriculum standards along with a lot of other useless shit like dope and fabric, (even fabric covered planes now use ceconite and resin not the old cotton linen with nitrate dope that explodes from the static electricity in your hair!) oxyacetylene welding of chrome moly tubing (its TIG welded in the real world), and woodworking! (Who builds spruce airplanes since Howard Hughes?) Actually NASA Langley uses some of those 'old' skills in their wind tunnel and drop model testing... now if they could only get that shrink ray to put leeeeetle pilots inside them before letting them go over Bull Island...[:D]

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