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Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 9:37:21 AM   
MasterJoeseph


Posts: 1
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Hi all..I'm new to posting but have been lurking for a while now. I found a wonderful slave about 5-6 months ago and I adore her dearly. she is so eager to please and serve me...except in one little area. Blowjobs. she hates them. I want her to be to the point where I don't have to demand she does this act. I want her to want to do it willingly...to look forward to it. When she hesitates I punish her, but it seems to be the only time that punishment doesn't works... I'll try the blowjob again and she hesitates, gives me the sad pouty face/puppy dog eyes, and I hate it. she just really does not like giving blowjobs. she says that she gets tired easily (her mouth muscles/jaw/neck and her throat begins to hurt when she gags a few times), and she HATES having my cum in her mouth/swallowing and gets really anxious/nervous when she knows it's coming. she hates this all so much that even though I punish her and she genuinely feels bad about disappointing me, she still hesitates and resisits blowjobs. she is really headstrong on this and even she wants to break the fear/stubbornness/unwillingness, but she doesn't know how, and apparently neither do I... any advice would be greatly appreciated.

-Master Joseph

< Message edited by MasterJoeseph -- 10/25/2005 10:51:17 AM >
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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 9:53:51 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		There's a LOT of ways to modify behavior rather than punishment. The old saying "you get more with honey than vinegar" would greatly apply here.

Of course the other side is that being pushed into doing it is really half the fun for her and she wouldn't get her kink on if you stopped.

Here's one approach- make a hand signal for "give me oral sex now" and make sure she knows what it is. One night make the signal very obviously. See her reaction.

If she doesn't simply obey (which seems likely) sit down with her and ask exactly which part of the hand signal process she didn't understand. Then she'll go on about how she just hates it so much. Again say "and exactly how does that prevent you from understanding and completing the order?"

Then she might get defensive and say how uncaring and awful you are to her.

A simple "non-reaction and expectation of obedience" is enough to shame and break bad habits in a lot of cases. This eliminates drama as much as possible and forces the sub to be responsible for her own obedience- which you've seen is the only way to actually GET consistent obedience.

Now, in addition you should try positive reinforcement. You could give rewards for good blowjobs, lots of compliments while she does them, lots of yummy touching for her about it. One thing to be careful of here though is to not create a direct association. She's not giving a blow job so she can get rewards, she's giving a blow job and eventually learns to enjoy it in itself.

Possibly also, start in stages. Let her just touch you for awhile one night and that's it. Then another night just using her mouth. The another night hands and mouth. And of course, she doesn't get her orgasm/subspace/whatever until you're satisfied.

And make her practice for 20 minutes every day on a dildo. That will build her muscles and endurance. Also make it a project for her to research and learn new oral techniques.

In the end, unless you want her to really like it, how she FEELS about it shouldn't matter. She's agreed to obey you including the area of oral sex. Simple repetition and desensitization might be enough to let her own issues fall away.


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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 10:02:43 AM   
Sartoris32801


Posts: 172
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline 		Rewards and punishments are the two ways to modify behavior.
Rewards being more effective for most people.

Sartoris



_____________________________

Oh, the shark, babe, has such teeth, dear
And it shows them pearly white
Just a jackknife has old MacHeath, babe
And he keeps it … ah … out of sight.

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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 10:08:10 AM   
sunshine333


Posts: 203
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline 		unfortunately, it sounds as though a lot of negativity is now attatched to this act for your girl.

would you be open to trying to make it a pleasant experience for her? my guess is she probably gets anxiety just thinking about having to do this. my advise would be to find ways to have her enjoy herself. some examples are:

~mood music ... something that relaxes her or arouses her (whatever the need may be)
~make sure to not gag her
~don't cum in her mouth (at least not for now)
~please her simultaneously
~make sure you're clean
~be more playful/less serious
~give lots of positive reenforcement
~instruct her with options of other ways to please you when her jaw gets tired
~make sure you understand all the reasons why she doesn't enjoy doing this
~choose a place and time of day that she is comfortable with

my suggestions are short term ... for training purposes. once she gains confidence in herself and trust in you it should be smooth sailing.

i think a "mastering" pitfall may be in thinking that you have to force things on your slave and that she needs to be quietly compliant at all times. in my opinion it is not "unmasterly" to "coddle" your slave from time to time in order to fully understand her and to let her know she's cared for.

humbly,
sunshine

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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 10:14:46 AM   
Sartoris32801


Posts: 172
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

unfortunately, it sounds as though a lot of negativity is now attatched to this act for your girl.


With a few words, sunshine hit it right on the "head"

well said sunshine

Sartoris

_____________________________

Oh, the shark, babe, has such teeth, dear
And it shows them pearly white
Just a jackknife has old MacHeath, babe
And he keeps it … ah … out of sight.

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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 10:42:57 AM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		i'd like to add to what Sunshine said (very well put btw). Don't make her feel as if she is doing it badly or wrong or not pleasing you. As Sunshine said... positive reinforcement!

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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 11:09:52 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		One girl found that some crushed ice in her mouth helped heaps, or something like bourbon did the trick as far as swallowing went...

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 11:13:04 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


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Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

Don't make her feel as if she is doing it badly or wrong or not pleasing you. As Sunshine said... positive reinforcement!

Well I agree with positive reinforcement, but if she's not obeying properly, she needs to be told so.

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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 12:34:12 PM   
sunshine333


Posts: 203
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline 		and here is where i think a little healthy coddling comes in.

... smiles ...

it's about balance. i agree with you, Emerald. she is clearly disobeying and that needs to be dealt with. however, there's a time and place for everything. i don't see how disempowering her in an area where she's already terribly disempowered gets anything accomplished. if a slave is constantly set up to "fail" then she will do just that ... fail. and if a slave continues to fail over and over again in one particular area then, in my opinion, her owner needs to look at his responsibility in the matter, which Joseph did.

he can continue to punish her (which has already proven to not get his desired results) or he can try to create a safe place so his girl will have more of a desire to please him.

right now, it sounds like a good blowjob is what he wants. he can deal with her stubborness and disobedience in other areas if he wishes.

humbly,
sunshine

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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 12:37:35 PM   
ownedjulia


Posts: 218
Joined: 10/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2


quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

Don't make her feel as if she is doing it badly or wrong or not pleasing you. As Sunshine said... positive reinforcement!

Well I agree with positive reinforcement, but if she's not obeying properly, she needs to be told so.



Absolutely.

If she has been told and its been explained and she still isn't obeying then she needs to be told.



_____________________________

~julia
owned slave and proud of it!

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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 12:38:46 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		On the other hand, how would you or any other submissive feel if you found out at some point that your dom wasn't really happy and thought you could do better and chose not to tell you because he felt you were too fragile or wouldn't take to it well?

I think almost universally that would hurt them more...and I don't think any dom wants to be held captive by their subs emotions to that extent.

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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 12:58:01 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I agree with ES on this. I would want to know if I was not pleasing. I'd rather have my feelings hurt and then move on to learning how to please than to not know.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 1:27:24 PM   
denimknight


Posts: 38
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		I have heard a number of dominant males who have had this trouble. While they were all very unique one thing was a common thread through each, they had never given a blowjob themselves.

It's always been amusing to me that when it comes to acts such as oral or anal sex the only dominants who are flabbergasted that a submissive or slave balks at having a cock shoved into places that were not explicitly designed to have a cock shoved down them.

Point here is that giving a blow job (to say nothing of deep throating) is by no means an easy thing to do. It takes practice just to get to a point where it is tolerable for many people. It takes even more time to acquire any skill at the act.

Your punishing her may well have done more harm than good and you will likely find yourself working from a less than zero sum in terms of making any progress along this line. If you wish to have any success I think you will have to be willing to move very slowly. In addition to having the necessary patience (and providing positive instead of negative reinforcement on the issue) there are some other modifications you can make to your behavior and physical appearance that might be helpful.

Do not place your hand on her head when she is attempting to blow you. Chances are you will unconsciously try to force her to move your penis far deeper than she is comfortable with far too quickly. As a result she will panic and begin to gag.

You might also consider shaving your pubic hair, or at the very least trimming it. This can make it easier to breath as well as eliminating the annoying sensation of hair getting in one's mouth.

Lastly (and this may be a no brainier but I'll mention it anyway) make sure you have washed your groin thoroughly before you expect her to put your cock in her mouth. Aside from making the process far less unpleasant for her (and thus far more likely that she will engage in the act) it's also just the polite thing to do really.

I'll close by saying that the best advice you will get on this matter is likely going to be from submissive/slaves or at the very least those who have preformed oral sex in the past.
Keeping in mind at all times just what you are trying to get her to do and seeing it from her perspective might also be helpful in coming up with your own solutions to this little problem (don't read anything into that).

Hope this helps
denimknight

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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 2:25:51 PM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

On the other hand, how would you or any other submissive feel if you found out at some point that your dom wasn't really happy and thought you could do better and chose not to tell you because he felt you were too fragile or wouldn't take to it well?

I think almost universally that would hurt them more...and I don't think any dom wants to be held captive by their subs emotions to that extent.


i may have missed something here, but if He's punished her... she already knows he wasn't happy. In my humble opinion, punishment has only made her feel more afraid, more insecure, more inadequate and less willing.

< Message edited by angelic -- 10/25/2005 2:32:03 PM >

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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 2:52:28 PM   
swtnsparkling


Posts: 1738
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Agrees with Emerald on this also. both points.
also wanted to say, if she is slave she is to obey,is she not. and if she hates giving BJ's so much was this not spoken about before hand?

< Message edited by swtnsparkling -- 10/25/2005 2:59:22 PM >

_____________________________

Never make anyone a priority who treats you as an option 2003

Walk in Peace
A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better than a "Yes" uttered merely to please



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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 3:16:38 PM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		having an aversion to bj's isnt being stubborn. maybe she had something in her past that happened that makes her feel this way. have you discussed it w/her?
instead of punishing her, retrain her.have her practice on fruit or popsicles or a toy .start in varying sizes if its a toy,start small and work your way up till it fits you. reward the practice sessions and have her keep a journal of her feelings on how she feels when she practices.maybe it'll help

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 3:20:32 PM   
Sensualips


Posts: 1013
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		You titled this thread "breaking stubborness." Do you really feel it is a question of defiance, disobediance, or stubborness? If so, it seems Emerald's comments would be particularly applicable.

Or do you feel she genuinely finds distasteful and you want to train her to want it / enjoy it because YOU would get more pleasure out of it if she did?

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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 3:37:12 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		First of all, let go of the idea of "breaking" her stubborness. Instead focus on working with her to guide her in changing her behavior. Breaking is antagonistic, changing is cooperative and you want her cooperating with you, not feeling she has to defend herself against you.

Second, see if you can get to the bottom of why she hates it so much. Most women I've known who have a problem with it have fairly specific reasons for it. Sometimes its having been raised that it was just really nasty and that good girls don't.... sometimes its from some form of abuse.... or just a really bad experience with it in the past. Find out what the root of the problem is and work on dealing with that. Once you get her past that, the problem should resolve itself. Whatever the root cause is, you want to work at helping her see what she does for you as being different, different circumstances, different experience... because that allows her to mentally distance what you want from her from that past experience, whatever it might be. The more she can seperate the two, the more she becomes able to develop knew expectations about what you want her to do.

As others have already said, reward her when she does what you want, praise her, let her know she is pleasing you, let her know how good it feels, tell her what she is doing right. Build her confidence in what she is doing right, encourage her, work on making it a happy experience for her, something she can find enjoyment in. The more you can guide her towards finding things about it she enjoys, the more she is likely to want to do it and do so willingly.

At the same time make it clear this is something you expect of her and that she will learn to do. Be firm about that. With that, encourage her by telling her you know she can, you have faith in her, that she will eventually learn to do this for you and be very good at it. Set your expectations of her as not only that she will do it, but that she will be good at it and that you believe she has the capacity to do that. That build her up, builds up her self confidence, and works to alter her self image of herself as to someone who can do it. Encourage her when she looses patience with herself. When she makes mistakes, correct her and have her try again. Don't make her feel as if the mistakes are huge... make them small, something easily changed... if she feels she can correct her mistakes, she is more likely to do so.

In short you're dealing with her mind, her self image, her expectations of herself... what she believes she can and can't do.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 3:58:44 PM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		i read the opening thread again.. "she is so eager to serve and please me"... 'she hesitates and i punish'. This truly does not sound to me like one who is being willfully disobedient, yet she is getting punished for 'hesitating'. It doesn't say she REFUSES... she merely hesitates... and is then punished for her hesitation. again... stop punishing her... give her positive reinforcement...

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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 4:02:29 PM   
domtimothy46176


Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline 		I agree with Padriag. This is a training issue and like all training issues, it must be presented in such a way as to inspire your girl to want to succeed. The use of punishment can be counter-productive when the issue is more than a simple willingness to obey.
By way of example, if a sub knows how to give good head and simply drags her feet when instructed to do so because she would rather be watching her favorite TV show, perhaps she needs a little reminder, via the paddle, of who she is and how she's expected to respond to instruction. That's clearly different than the situation you describe. From the OP, I get the feeling that she wants to be able to comply and doesn't know how to overcome her internal issues with the activity.
I find that oral and anal sex training are best done at a gradual pace. I consider good sex to be worth the time it takes to bring a girl to a place where is confident in her abilities and comfortable enough to use them with gusto. For myself, I find that allowing a girl the leniency to go as far her comfort level allows and rewarding her for having done so builds her confidence up. Over time, I will then ask her to push herself to do a bit more than she's been able to before. Whether she makes significant progress or not, I always praise the effort. When she does make progress, I make a point of telling her not only how proud I am of her determined effort but also how pleased I am with how far she's come.
This approach has served me well and i highly recommend it.
Timothy

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