BDSM and spirituality: kink, ritual and what cannot be explained (Full Version)

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stella41b -> BDSM and spirituality: kink, ritual and what cannot be explained (6/1/2008 3:17:22 AM)

And now for something a little different..

We have had a thread exploring our background and families and our attitudes to BDSM and me being me I wanted to go that bit deeper. To the core, to the essence as it were, or may be. I feel the need to make a little disclaimer here so as to avoid yet another debate about religion, faith and BDSM which may or may not descend into arguments for or against any set of belief system or a hierarchy of values in favour of one or another.. we are all individuals here, we all believe what we believe and we all have each walked our own individual path to reach this moment in time.

What I'm looking for is something a little closer to the Qabala and Alastair Crowley, to Rudolf Steiner and anthroposophy, that sense of being born, but also being aware that we all have come from another existence into this material, physical world, one of both energy and matter and we are of both energy (our souls) and matter (our bodies) and we are all drawn towards relationships based on interactions which take in all of us, kinks included, based on the exchange of power.

We have heard it said - and it can be taken very easily to be believed - that BDSM, D/s, M/s and all what is related is a lifestyle, we even have the term 'the lifestyle'. We have gone beyond the fringes and the initial illusions and realised that 'the lifestyle' means our own individual lifestyle. This brings with it the additional connotation that the awareness of our lifestyle as being that complete with kink included is shared by others who live in the same or similar manner.

However 'the lifestyle' is still very much life, we are no different than perhaps before we made our discoveries, our relationships at their very core are the same as any relationship for it is only our own awareness which has changed, and we seek to establish friendships and/or relationships with others who are also aware of the whole picture.

In his works on anthroposophy Rudolf Steiner writes of the necessity of being at one with others, of balancing our spiritual needs with our material and physical needs, of seeing ourselves in other people and seeing other people in ourselves. This makes me think and wonder, for if we really do have a soul or a spirit, that body of energy within all of us which is 'life' then surely it has a significant influence on both our motivations in this 'lifestyle', in the way we form relationships and with whom, and even perhaps right down to the activities we accept, enjoy, and wish to share with others.

Therefore, and I accept that this may require some consideration, thinking, reflection, just how much do our spiritual needs influence our relationships? How many of us feel that their primary motivation for seeking out such relationships and engaging in such activities is spiritual? Do you feel you have a spiritual need which lies at the core of your motivation to either seek out the relationship you want or it forms part of the motivation to be in the relationship you share with someone else? Have you found what is necessary to fulfill that spiritual need through what you do and your relationships with others?

Furthermore, if we do indeed have a soul or spirit which lies inside us as a body of energy and what we could take to be 'life' then surely we are subject and part of not just the living world and the reality of here and now, but we can also be 'connected' as it were to something higher, another plane of existence, the spiritual world and what some would define as the Other Side.

Here I'm looking at things which perhaps defy logical explanation, coincidences, flows of energy between people, destiny, the times in your life perhaps where you felt railroaded into one particular course of action or directed towards a relationship, that sense of 'deja vu' when you meet someone for the first time, intuition, premonitions, superstitions, irrational fears and beliefs, all the things which cannot be explained easily.

People come and go in our lives, but some come for a reason, either to teach us a lesson, to show us the way, to make us aware of something which we didn't know previously. Some stay, some go, and sometimes the relationship doesn't go as you thought it would, but becomes something completely different.

Therefore I'm not seeking the rational, but the irrational. Have you had such an experience in your life? Has there been an event, a relationship, or even a moment which has changed your life, caused you to alter the course of your life, or shaped and influenced the way you are now? Is there something which has happened but you still may not completely understand it, it still remains mysterious, or you find it hard to come up with an explanation?

And what of superstition and ritual? Is there something you will never do, you never want to be part of, or something which you see as a red flag, for reasons which you cannot explain? Do you need to go through some sort of a ritual? Do you have something which is special and necessary to you in your 'toybox' and which, if it is missing, tends to cause a scene to go badly? Have you ever experienced deja vu when meeting someone?

Has there ever been times when you have trusted your intuition and it's worked out, against all odds, the way you thought it would? Has there been times when you have gone against your intuition and paid heavily as a result?

How much of the spiritual, the unexplained, and the things which defy logic have influenced or influence you and what you do in 'the lifestyle'?



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: BDSM and spirituality: kink, ritual and what cannot be explained (6/1/2008 8:28:56 AM)

I'm a deeply spiritual person, but there's nothing specifically effected by or towards bdsm for me.  It's just another part of who I am.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_759471/mpage_2/key_religion/tm.htm#761510
bdsm and christianity to me

http://www.collarchat.com/m_651144/mpage_1/key_christian/tm.htm#651149
"Christian" bdsm?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_101393/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#101393
bdsm lifestyle vs christianity/religion

http://www.collarchat.com/m_112713/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#112713
bdsm spirituality???

http://www.collarchat.com/m_114995/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#114995
Christianity and ds bdsm

http://www.collarchat.com/m_154410/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#154410
a sacred take on bdsm

http://www.collarchat.com/m_168844/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#168844
bdsm and religion

http://www.collarchat.com/m_176205/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#176205
sensuality & religion = what?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_193896/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#193896
religion and bdsm

http://www.collarchat.com/m_275551/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#275551
christians everywhere!

http://www.collarchat.com/m_323932/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#323932
no...not the spiritual trip

http://www.collarchat.com/m_299050/mpage_1/key_faith%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#299050
power and spirit

http://www.collarchat.com/m_133611/mpage_1/key_spirituality%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#133611
bdsm and spirituality?



crouchingtigress -> RE: BDSM and spirituality: kink, ritual and what cannot be explained (6/1/2008 8:35:36 AM)

there is magic/god/love/truth/buddah/spirit in every moment...when you remember to look for it there.




Prinsexx -> RE: BDSM and spirituality: kink, ritual and what cannot be explained (6/1/2008 9:28:18 AM)

Dear Stella;
If this lifestyle were just about the here and now, well, me, at least, I would be fucked. I be up the wazoo without a paddle. What i mean by this is that I sometimes do feel part of the so-called lifestyle but more often than not, as in most of the rest of my life, I feel on the fringes looking in. I honestly belive this has something to do with a deep and sincere belief I have that this is not ALL there is and therefore I am possibly one of the least empirical people around.

You asked these questions and to them I give some of my immediate answers....not that coherent or well thought out as yet.....

Therefore, and I accept that this may require some consideration, thinking, reflection, just how much do our spiritual needs influence our relationships?  I would need to say a great deal. I couldn't settle in a relationship od any degree of intimacy with anyone with whom I was at loggerheads spiritually. This would include most of those regualr attenders at any form of fundamentalist 'regime'. I don't do judgement....and if that sounds like a judement then so be it.
How many of us feel that their primary motivation for seeking out such relationships and engaging in such activities is spiritual? All of my relationships are (this is what I feel right now). I place absolute faith in them. What I mean by this is that I place my trust on the unseen, unevidenced and unbelieveable forces at work. There's no half-way measure in which I can have faith.
Do you feel you have a spiritual need which lies at the core of your motivation to either seek out the relationship you want or it forms part of the motivation to be in the relationship you share with someone else? I feel I have a spiritual need yes. full-stop. My need is for spiritual assurance, spiritual guidance and it is with this in mind that I seek a master and not a Dominant as i would entrust that Master to be able to thus guide me rather than merely control me or train me.
Have you found what is necessary to fulfill that spiritual need through what you do and your relationships with others? At the time yes and then, obvously, no. That moment of disillusionment is what for me ends the relationship. At the moment I feel a lack, at the moment I want more and the moment i feel lost, un supported, then my attention is turned out to what else there might be out there that would support me better.
for many reasons, spiritual, physical and emotional, I am at a cross roads so this is a timely question.
Thanks for your support in PM and for such a well thought out and brilliant question.
With love, blessings and good karma....you know you so deserve it.
Prin



Asherdelampyr -> RE: BDSM and spirituality: kink, ritual and what cannot be explained (6/1/2008 10:15:05 AM)

short answer: Yes

Longer answer:

I believe that it is almost a spiritual need, I knew what I needed to be happy long before I knew what a flogger was, the egg in this case did, in fact, come before the chicken.
You hear all the time about people who always had a need to serve, and to please others, and though you hear less often about people always having a need for people to serve them (perhaps becase it is possible for it to sound a bit arrogant) but I do firmly believe the need is there.

as far as an experience goes... the first time I heard my pets voice, I had this overwhelming feeling that I already knew her, and had for some time... even though we had only spoken on-line for a couple of days, I still cant shake that feeling, its not bothersome, just interesting. The only comparison I have to it is the first time I drank someone else's blood... it felt right, neccisary, like it was something I had always done, and will always do.



Prinsexx -> RE: BDSM and spirituality: kink, ritual and what cannot be explained (6/1/2008 10:23:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

there is magic/god/love/truth/buddah/spirit in every moment...when you remember to look for it there.



yes forgetting is the hell.........



MasterFireMaam -> RE: BDSM and spirituality: kink, ritual and what cannot be explained (6/1/2008 1:13:15 PM)

First, there are WAY too many questions in this post to be an effective post, in my opinion. That being said...

quote:

Therefore, and I accept that this may require some consideration, thinking, reflection, just how much do our spiritual needs influence our relationships?

Many people go through life not being awake or self aware. Life is just high school gone global for them. Feeding their spirit often doesn't occur to them, although they find things that have deep meaning and make them feel good, so they do them. Things like gardening, walking, being with certain people, etc. are the things that come to mind. Because these things don't often happen in church, no one sees them as spiritual things...but I think the are. It feeds a part of us that is hard to articulate. That's spiritual.

If we look closely, there are many relationship dynamics outside of our lifestyle that are spiritual. An SO being a soul mate, for example, or a brother/sisterhood dynamic. Sometimes, being a leader of a group who follows you, as in the military, can be spiritual as well. It's just not often labeled as such...but people acknowledge there's something special there.

quote:

How many of us feel that their primary motivation for seeking out such relationships and engaging in such activities is spiritual? Do you feel you have a spiritual need which lies at the core of your motivation to either seek out the relationship you want or it forms part of the motivation to be in the relationship you share with someone else? Have you found what is necessary to fulfill that spiritual need through what you do and your relationships with others?

I think most of us are in the search for things that have "meaning". The idea of "meaning" is rather intangible, but we all know it when we feel it. This is my primary goal for these kinds of relationships for me. To have the deepest relationship, I must feel a connection to the person. I must feel that we are "supposed" to be in this dynamic.

I trying feel that there are some of us who are to reach our highest potential in this plane by following their fetishes and this kind of dynamic. I don't feel that everyone is...there are many paths. With me and my girl, I have found such a connection, to the point that the fetishes are actually secondary to who we are and what we do.

quote:

Here I'm looking at things which perhaps defy logical explanation, coincidences, flows of energy between people, destiny, the times in your life perhaps where you felt railroaded into one particular course of action or directed towards a relationship, that sense of 'deja vu' when you meet someone for the first time, intuition, premonitions, superstitions, irrational fears and beliefs, all the things which cannot be explained easily.

People come and go in our lives, but some come for a reason, either to teach us a lesson, to show us the way, to make us aware of something which we didn't know previously. Some stay, some go, and sometimes the relationship doesn't go as you thought it would, but becomes something completely different.

Therefore I'm not seeking the rational, but the irrational. Have you had such an experience in your life? Has there been an event, a relationship, or even a moment which has changed your life, caused you to alter the course of your life, or shaped and influenced the way you are now? Is there something which has happened but you still may not completely understand it, it still remains mysterious, or you find it hard to come up with an explanation?

There isn't enough space here to really discuss this fully for me.
Go here: http://masterfiremaam.livejournal.com/211838.html#cutid1
and here: http://masterfiremaam.livejournal.com/212193.html#cutid1
and here: http://masterfiremaam.livejournal.com/212912.html
and here: http://masterfiremaam.livejournal.com/93098.html
and just about anything under my spirituality or Ms tag.

quote:

And what of superstition and ritual? Is there something you will never do, you never want to be part of, or something which you see as a red flag, for reasons which you cannot explain? Do you need to go through some sort of a ritual? Do you have something which is special and necessary to you in your 'toybox' and which, if it is missing, tends to cause a scene to go badly? Have you ever experienced deja vu when meeting someone?

This happens often to me. You'll read a lot about my reincarnation findings under the spirituality or metaphysics tag in my journal. I run into people I've know on a fairly regular basis. Some are here to interact again, most are not.

quote:

Has there ever been times when you have trusted your intuition and it's worked out, against all odds, the way you thought it would? Has there been times when you have gone against your intuition and paid heavily as a result?

Yes...there's also times when I've ignored the voice of my guide in my head. Recently, I gave in to what he was saying and have possibly found a whole new path to my life that I'd been resisting. Funny thing is the part I'd been assuming would happen that I'd been resisting probably won't happen at all.

quote:

How much of the spiritual, the unexplained, and the things which defy logic have influenced or influence you and what you do in 'the lifestyle'?

I don't often seperate the lifestyle out of my everyday existence. So, all the things that affect me spiritually affect my as a Master.

Master Fire



DesFIP -> RE: BDSM and spirituality: kink, ritual and what cannot be explained (6/1/2008 1:29:14 PM)

I'm a Reconstructionist Jew. I see my relationship in the same way I view my relationship to God. This is one of the major reasons I can't accept a punishment dynamic. I wasn't punished as a kid, the consequences of my actions were punishment enough. It's the same in my religion.

Halacha gives us rules to follow that brings us closer to God and things to avoid that cause us to be further away. The rules in my relationship work the same. Choose to do what makes it work better or choose to do things that worsen the relationship. My choice, and since he just woke up, time for me to go.



Prinsexx -> RE: BDSM and spirituality: kink, ritual and what cannot be explained (6/1/2008 4:16:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam



Yes...there's also times when I've ignored the voice of my guide in my head. Recently, I gave in to what he was saying and have possibly found a whole new path to my life that I'd been resisting. Funny thing is the part I'd been assuming would happen that I'd been resisting probably won't happen at all.

Master Fire


Oh that voice! as opposed the the endless rantings of my own ego voice? Well my guide is simply not very eloquent and indeed only shows up on rare occasions....connected to the death of others....in rare visions and sightings my guide does a pretty clear guided tour of things to come. But things in the present As I said before I have to do battle with my ego still on that one and when that doesn't work, as it invariably doesn't, then I have to lean on 'faith'.
One day it will all become blindingly clear and that's for sure.



MstrVik -> RE: BDSM and spirituality: kink, ritual and what cannot be explained (6/1/2008 5:54:58 PM)


quote:

Therefore, and I accept that this may require some consideration, thinking, reflection, just how much do our spiritual needs influence our relationships?

For sure, this is not an easy question at all, but some of my views on this should be possible to extract from my replies below.

quote:

How many of us feel that their primary motivation for seeking out such relationships and engaging in such activities is spiritual? Do you feel you have a spiritual need which lies at the core of your motivation to either seek out the relationship you want or it forms part of the motivation to be in the relationship you share with someone else? Have you found what is necessary to fulfill that spiritual needthrough  what you do and your relationships with others?

Spirituality is, and have always been, important to me; it is part of who I am and I see it as an aspect of everything I experience. It is not something I see as a primary motivation for any of my relationships with others however, or something that I seek to fulfil through others. However, I like to be able to meet with and feel a connection with others on a spiritual level - if it's there, all the better, and it certainly adds depth to it.

quote:

Here I'm looking at things which perhaps defy logical explanation, coincidences, flows of energy between people, destiny, the times in your life perhaps where you felt railroaded into one particular course of action or directed towards a relationship, that sense of 'deja vu' when you meet someone for the first time, intuition, premonitions, superstitions, irrational fears and beliefs, all the things which cannot be explained easily.

People come and go in our lives, but some come for a reason, either to teach us a lesson, to show us the way, to make us aware of something which we didn't know previously. Some stay, some go, and sometimes the relationship doesn't go as you thought it would, but becomes something completely different.

Therefore I'm not seeking the rational, but the irrational. Have you had such an experience in your life? Has there been an event, a relationship, or even a moment which has changed your life, caused you to alter the course of your life, or shaped and influenced the way you are now? Is there something which has happened but you still may not completely understand it, it still remains mysterious, or you find it hard to come up with an explanation?

Yes, I have had such experiences, some of which have influenced me in major ways - at least it appears that way when looked at retrospectively. - I don't have a need to find rational explanations for everything that has happened in my life, and even in those cases when I can't, I don't really see them as mysterious for that reason. Things happen; we fill them with meaning... 

quote:

And what of superstition and ritual? Is there something you will never do, you never want to be part of, or something which you see as a red flag, for reasons which you cannot explain? Do you need to go through some sort of a ritual? Do you have something which is special and necessary to you in your 'toybox' and which, if it is missing, tends to cause a scene to go badly? Have you ever experienced deja vu when meeting someone?

No to everything, except the last question. While there are things I see as a red flag etc., none of it defies rationality. - I'm not sure I will use the term 'deja vu', but I sometimes meet people with whom I feel a strong sense of familiarity which is there for no apparent reason. (Maybe an indication that reincarnation is a reality; I accept that possibility, but the whole philosophical discussion of reincarnation is a complex issue so I don't want to get further into that.)

quote:

Has there ever been times when you have trusted your intuition and it's worked out, against all odds, the way you thought it would? Has there been times when you have gone against your intuition and paid heavily as a result?

There have been times when I've trusted my intiution and it's worked out really well, and other times it may have been more challenging than I had thought but still worth it. - There has been a couple of times when I have regretted it - but then again, I also earned some wisdom from it.

quote:

How much of the spiritual, the unexplained, and the things which defy logic have influenced or influence you and what you do in 'the lifestyle'?

Not at all really - and while I see spirituality as an important aspect of my existence, it influences me more in an overall manner.



subtee -> RE: BDSM and spirituality: kink, ritual and what cannot be explained (6/1/2008 9:01:56 PM)

Is desire a design flaw in human beings? We have a heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment.  We believe we are alone, individuals and that our egos constitute our complete nature. We ignore the peace that is within us, usually sleeping through our silly drama, fears, flaws and resentments. Epictetus: "You bear God within you, poor wretch, and know it not."

We've lost the ability to listen to our instincts, believing that we're unworthy of being given divine direction. Animals don't suffer the inconvenience of ego and so they don't ignore what they're shown. They listen; we obfuscate.

I  love Stella.



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