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RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? - 6/4/2008 5:26:43 AM   
Griswold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

OK please show me where the oil companies profits are only 8 or 9 percent...I have been looking. Most state from 37 to 68 percent increase in profits.

Oil went from $10 to over $124 per barrel in ten years... figure that in percent and tell me their production costs have gone up one thousand two hundred or so percent.

Yea 9 percent profit my ass


There's a vast difference between a 68% increase in profits....and an 8% profit.

A little town near Seattle beginning in 1984 was the fastest growing city in the United States for 2 years running.  They had a 200% growth rate for 24 months.

They also had an earlier population count of approx. 225 people, and built  a very simple apartment complex that added approx. 400 units.

That's a % increase.

If you make 7 bucks an hour and got a raise to $11.76 an hour...you just got a 68% increase...but you still don't make enough to pay cash for a decent car.

Oil companies purchase 70% or more of their products from places that charge $124.00 a barrel.  It doesn't make any difference whatsoever what oil sold for 2 years ago, or 3 hours ago...if it costs $124.00, or has gone up 68%, or using your example...1,240%...to be able to get the oil to your gas station, they must pay the going rate.

If they sell the fuel to you for what you feel is fair value, you'd be getting a fairly unenjoyable surprise in fairly short order....no fuel.

It doesn't really matter if you agree, or don't much enjoy it...those are the facts.

< Message edited by Griswold -- 6/4/2008 5:28:26 AM >

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? - 6/4/2008 5:51:06 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Aren't they trying that model right now in Cuba, North Korea, and a few other dream locations?

How is it working out there. How do they keep people from capitalizing on the side, when their government worker drones can't quite keep up with demand, for whatever reason...

Bullets to the head, right?

Ooh, yeah, who doesn't want that here.


quote:

Anyways.....I fired off a good letter to Maxine Waters today, urging her to spread her wings...... The petroleum industry needs to be nationalized and run/treated like a public utility, where the shareholders {the public} are the sole arbiters in the managerial wage structure and profit caps. It's for the good of the country/ humanity.


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
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RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? - 6/4/2008 6:16:49 AM   
SugarMyChurro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger
...guys are delivering-up soliloquies about elementary supply and demand and how lucky we are that we're only paying four-fifty a gallon.


Oh yeah, the free market is going to save us all!

Someday...



...could be a long wait.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
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RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? - 6/4/2008 6:45:49 AM   
Griswold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger
...guys are delivering-up soliloquies about elementary supply and demand and how lucky we are that we're only paying four-fifty a gallon.


Oh yeah, the free market is going to save us all!

Someday...



...could be a long wait.



Last time I checked...you live in a free market...and according to my history lessons...it did.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? - 6/4/2008 7:07:49 AM   
Archer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Hi Archer...Maybe we are talking of different companies. The links you showed me were figures provided by oil companies and I am not sure where these companies are in the process. Perhaps it is their suppliers that are making outlandish profits...But someone is!!!

It is a fact that a barrel of oil was less than $12 in 1998...and that is a conservative figure. Now it is often over $120..and that is conservative.

I can't believe their cost of processing has risen 1200 percent...sorry I don't care what those links say this is a blatant discrepancy. Someone... some company... somewhere... along the line is hiding their profits

Butch


I tried to tell you a couple times already the profit isn't being hidden it's being made at the oilwell head. Those oil well heads are in most cases owned by Nationalized Oil Companies where the oil is. Saudi Arabia, Venezuella, Russia, Nigeria and OPEC members, with even the largest privately owned reserves coming in outside of the top 10 list. The next big profit is made when the oil is sold on the New York Merchantile Exchange (commodity markets)

People get this odd idea that Exxon owns the wells, and the gasoline that comes from the local Exxon Station comes only directly from those wells. It doesn't happen that way in the real world.

Exxon may own the well, they pump it over into stroage tanks where it mixes with the same grades of oil from any other wells in the same area. (just for yucks lets say it's a Shell Oil Storage facility) So now Shell owns the oil that exxon pumped out of the ground. Tanker owned by BP shows up and says fill her up, they fill it up, now BP owns that oil, and they sail across the ocean to a refinery, that refiner is Chevron just by chance cause on that day out of the 4 in the same area they are the ones who'll pay the best price. Chevron buys it refines it and sends it into the gasoline pipeline owned by XYZ pipeline company, that pipeline comany owns the gasoline now and they send that gasoline into the mix, that gets piped to FRS Distributing Company who own another set of storage tanks, they are affiliated with Fina, The line of trucks at the FRS tank farm includes trucks bearing the Exxon, Shell, BP, RaceTrac, Keenan names on the side, they all load up at the same tank farm and take their gasoline to their customers.
Because gasoline is basicly fungible One gallon of gas being pretty much the same as another.

National Convienience Store Association had figures out not long ago that gave the average profit at the retail level (the privately owned station) at less than 6 cents a gallon.
They make their real profits on the soda, beer, cigarettes, chips and coffee you get when you head inside.

For a new story that backs me up look here.

Others funny how I post documented facts in links backing my acertations up and I seem to be the only one. DomKen care to post a link to the story you keep quoteing so that your "facts" can be checked?
http://www.wgal.com/news/9336051/detail.html




< Message edited by Archer -- 6/4/2008 7:09:46 AM >

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? - 6/4/2008 7:27:54 AM   
SugarMyChurro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold
Last time I checked...you live in a free market...and according to my history lessons...it did.


Is it your great financially success that leaves you so lonely, Gris?



Cuz, you know, most of the time it reads like bullshit.

(in reply to Griswold)
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RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? - 6/4/2008 7:28:12 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
For a new story that backs me up look here.

Others funny how I post documented facts in links backing my acertations up and I seem to be the only one. DomKen care to post a link to the story you keep quoteing so that your "facts" can be checked?
http://www.wgal.com/news/9336051/detail.html

no link in the first one and the link at the bottom is nothing but assertions with no factual backup. No business sells something with a markup of less than 1%. While profit per gallon may legitimately be as low as 2 cents a gallon there is more to profit than subtracting the sale price from the wholesale price.

I'll try and dig up a link to one of those stories later.

(in reply to Archer)
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RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? - 6/4/2008 8:35:15 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

OK please show me where the oil companies profits are only 8 or 9 percent...I have been looking. Most state from 37 to 68 percent increase in profits.

Oil went from $10 to over $124 per barrel in ten years... figure that in percent and tell me their production costs have gone up one thousand two hundred or so percent.

Yea 9 percent profit my ass


There's a vast difference between a 68% increase in profits....and an 8% profit.

A little town near Seattle beginning in 1984 was the fastest growing city in the United States for 2 years running.  They had a 200% growth rate for 24 months.

They also had an earlier population count of approx. 225 people, and built  a very simple apartment complex that added approx. 400 units.

That's a % increase.

If you make 7 bucks an hour and got a raise to $11.76 an hour...you just got a 68% increase...but you still don't make enough to pay cash for a decent car.

Oil companies purchase 70% or more of their products from places that charge $124.00 a barrel.  It doesn't make any difference whatsoever what oil sold for 2 years ago, or 3 hours ago...if it costs $124.00, or has gone up 68%, or using your example...1,240%...to be able to get the oil to your gas station, they must pay the going rate.

If they sell the fuel to you for what you feel is fair value, you'd be getting a fairly unenjoyable surprise in fairly short order....no fuel.

It doesn't really matter if you agree, or don't much enjoy it...those are the facts.


Griswold...you totally missed my point...whomever is charging the $124 is sticking it too us...That’s why I said to Archer we may be taking about different people...someone is reaping the increase from $12 to $120. Is that so hard to understand...It is black and white...no mumbo jumbo from the likes of Exxon. It is a hard irrefutable fact.

I have never accused any oil company directly and I'm sure it is the producers Archer...I am not arguing against you or your position at all...I am just saying we are being taken advantage of and need to fight back as a country...not only as an individual at the pump.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/4/2008 8:42:26 AM >

(in reply to Griswold)
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RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? - 6/4/2008 2:23:32 PM   
Griswold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold
Last time I checked...you live in a free market...and according to my history lessons...it did.


Is it your great financially success that leaves you so lonely, Gris?



Cuz, you know, most of the time it reads like bullshit.



Well, unfortunately I'm not skilled enough in the art of relationships to be able to make the connection on that one for you, however, I think it would be fairly easy to make the connection that using facts as pertaining to economics (and economies) is a much preferred method to conjecture.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? - 6/4/2008 2:27:56 PM   
Griswold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Griswold...you totally missed my point...whomever is charging the $124 is sticking it too us (That would be the folks that own the oil, and in large part, it ain't Exxon, even as they own some)...That’s why I said to Archer we may be taking about different people...someone is reaping the increase from $12 to $120 (see above). Is that so hard to understand (not at all)...It is black and white...no mumbo jumbo from the likes of Exxon. It is a hard irrefutable fact (no argument there).

I have never accused any oil company directly and I'm sure it is the producers Archer...I am not arguing against you or your position at all...I am just saying we are being taken advantage of and need to fight back as a country...not only as an individual at the pump.

Fighting back doesn't include (to be effective) using facts and figures that don't have any relationship to the truth.  As was mentioned above by another poster, the only effective method of fighting this battle is...to use less, or discover more.

Butch

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? - 6/4/2008 2:41:21 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Griswold I don't believe you have anymore idea of the truth then me..the figures I used are just as viable as yours...just different. If we knew the truth they would kill us for sure...

I believe my ideas as posted about would work just fine with the political will.

Butch

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RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? - 6/4/2008 3:34:27 PM   
Griswold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Griswold I don't believe you have anymore idea of the truth then me..the figures I used are just as viable as yours...just different. If we knew the truth they would kill us for sure...

I believe my ideas as posted about would work just fine with the political will.

Butch


Ok.

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? - 6/6/2008 4:24:31 PM   
Griswold


Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold
Last time I checked...you live in a free market...and according to my history lessons...it did.


Is it your great financially success that leaves you so lonely, Gris?



Cuz, you know, most of the time it reads like bullshit.



I was just wondering....

Do you feel better now?

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? - 6/6/2008 4:30:43 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Well, oil closed at close to $140 per bbl today!
It's getting *very close* to the point that these prices are becomming *Dangerous* to the country and our economy!
"Stagflation" will be the least of our worries!
The U.S. Government needs to step in and do something!!!

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(in reply to Griswold)
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RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? - 6/6/2008 4:55:21 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		OK Archer and Griswold... now  tell me some more crap about oil prices reflecting demand and they only make 9 percent profit...Last night and every night  for the near future the profit of oil producers went up 902 million...every day...now try and tell me the cost of production went up 902 million overnight...and they are only making 9 percent profit...

Butch

(in reply to popeye1250)
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RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? - 6/6/2008 5:35:37 PM   
Griswold


Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

OK Archer and Griswold... now  tell me some more crap about oil prices reflecting demand and they only make 9 percent profit...Last night and every night  for the near future the profit of oil producers went up 902 million...every day...now try and tell me the cost of production went up 902 million overnight...and they are only making 9 percent profit...

Butch


Profits are still roughly 7 - 9%, regardless of what oil sells for, and if your numbers are correct (902 million), that only reflects the market.

(It still doesn't change the % profit they made).

Sorry.

(It doesn't change the facts).

And by the way....demand....is entirely the reason for the price.

(See previous posts regards lowering useage or increasing supply).


< Message edited by Griswold -- 6/6/2008 5:40:07 PM >

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RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? - 6/6/2008 5:47:15 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		I just don't see how you make 902 million disappear... the price of oil per barrel went up $11 last night... every day, from what I could find the world uses approx. 82 million barrels of oil...so 11 times 82 million = in my very rough figuring 902 million every damn day... not a year..so today they made 902 million then they made yesterday... I'll guarantee you the cost of production did not go up 902 million last night so it was pure profit... or approx a 8.5 percent increase in pure profit over night

I'm sorry you are not making common since...sticking to figure of 8 or 9 percent over all is silly in the face of facts.
Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/6/2008 5:49:59 PM >

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RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? - 6/6/2008 5:47:23 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Why the basic economic theory would just bounce right off the closed mind you have locked so tight.

Would do you much more good to simply tell you to go take a good college level conomics course to aat the very least get the basics of:

Commodity Exchanges- the places where the world collects and trades fungible commodities.
Gross Profit vs Net Profit Vs Profit Margin
because that brick wall I'm buting my head against is getting boreing.

I posted documented facts of profit margin, taken from the papers that the companies filed with the US government as part of their corpaorate tax fileings. The numbers are factual, at least unless and until you show me proof that they lied on their tax forms and their profit and loss statements.

OK now editing to again go through the basic idea of profit margin

I spend $2 to make something, I sell it for $2.20 That's 20 cents profit and 10% profit margin.

I spend $2 million dollars to make something, I sell the item for 2.2 million dollars
Thats $200,000 but still only 10% profit margin.

Unless and until you grasp that concept it's worthless to continue trying to explain the rest.


< Message edited by Archer -- 6/6/2008 5:51:23 PM >

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RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? - 6/6/2008 5:54:14 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I have to assume that all the increase is just smoke and mirrors and ignorance on my part...no one is getting the money... except maybe the man in the moon... the figures stated are all lies... the price per barrel did not really go up... it is all a liberal plot to get Obama elected...

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? - 6/6/2008 6:03:06 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		OK now with a bit more of a clear head.

The price of oil goes up, who gets the profit?
The people who own the oil.
77% of all the known liquid oil in the ground today is owned by who?
Stae owned oil companies.
4% of the worlds known liquid oil in the ground is owned by who?
The combined top 5 private oil companies.

The Private Oil companies BUY most of the oil they use from State owned oil companies in OPEC.

Private Oil Companies BUY oil from Venezuella at the price that gets reported as the per barrel price.
They also BUY the oil from Saudi Arabia at the per barrel price
So the price you see reported all the time is the price THEY are PAYING.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 80
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