RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies?

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Griswold -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/6/2008 6:03:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I just don't see how you make 902 million disappear... the price of oil per barrel went up $11 last night... every day, from what I could find the world uses approx. 82 million barrels of oil...so 11 times 82 million = in my very rough figuring 902 million every damn day... not a year..so today they made 902 million then they made yesterday... I'll guarantee you the cost of production did not go up 902 million last night so it was pure profit... or approx a 8.5 percent increase in pure profit over night. I don't believe anyone has suggested that they increased their profits by 8.5% overnight. Indeed, the market is fairly clear....in one day, the price has risen over 11%. In one day. That's, without question, cataclysmic. It's huge. It's bigger than big. Big is when my taxes go up from 6 grand a year to 7 grand. "Big" is when I have to pay $35,000.00 for anything that cost me yesterday.....5 bucks. $140.00 from $124.00 is a big jump. It's big. Bigger than big. Actually it's rather huge. To be entirely truthful, I'm not even confident that "big" encompasses how much the recent oil price changes has affected my personal spending habits..... But.... It still doesn't affect the % profit the oil companies make...and.... It still doesn't equate to antitrust gouging actions on the part of the oil companies. (See above posts as to using less....or drilling for more).

kdsub -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/6/2008 6:08:16 PM)
Saying that does not make it true...but you and I can both agree we will not change the others mind so lets just leave it to each person to decide the right or wrong of it.

Griswold -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/6/2008 6:17:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Saying that does not make it true...but you and I can both agree we will not change the others mind so lets just leave it to each person to decide the right or wrong of it. You are absolutely correct....saying it won't make it true. However...the fact that it's true...does indeed change the equation. And indeed....your opinion is just as valid....for conversation. KD....I don't have an opinion as to you being right or me being wrong...it doesn't make a damn bit of difference to me because in the end....I'm going to do better than most....but I will tell you this; forget who's right and who's wrong in this discussion...it's immaterial....spend the next 10 days getting your ducks in a row, because the world's about to take a very big dump. And it's going to be in someone's lap. Whose is entirely up to you. You can spend the next 10 days, or the next 10 years debating whether or not I know shit from shinola....it really doesn't make any difference to me or my world whether or not you agree with me or disagree..... Take a look around you hon....assume what you can....look at all the people you know who have done well.... Then look at those who've done...less well. Pick which group you're in...and assume the group of those who are talking tonight. Make your decisions based on those assumptions. In the end, you'll do well if you choose well. And if you don't...I'm confident we'll have this discussion again.

Archer -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/6/2008 6:18:50 PM)
kd no the basic economics taught all around the world and the definition of profit margin says I am correct and you are not. You can't mix profit and profit margin they each have their own world wide accepted definitions. BTW has it gotten through yet that the per barrel price you complain about is in fact the price that the companie like Exxon and Shell PAY to the owners of the oil they use to refine gasoline? You have never bought a barrel of crude oil directly I have to assume, nor have I, nor have most if not all of the people who come to this website. We pay for the increase in oil price because they pass it down to us as part of the increased cost of raw materials.

kdsub -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/6/2008 7:05:29 PM)
You must not be reading my posts Archer...I told you before I was not taking about a refining company or companies...I was talking about the producers. It makes no difference to me who is screwing me only that someone is and they are making more than 9 percent profit... It may be Saudi Arabia...Venezuela...Russia or CAPP. But no more arguing on my part...to me it is common since but to you it is lack of knowledge...like I said let others decide who is right or wrong...I'm done... I'm out of gas on the subject....lol

Archer -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/6/2008 7:11:56 PM)
OK now I have your actual question figured out. Seems your confussion is in the idea of commodity markets vs production of goods. All commodities from Oil to Orange Juice to Pork Bellies to Gold have their prices set not based on what they cost to produce but rather strictly on a speculation of what the supply available to be delivered on day X (usually 3 months into the future) is vs the demand on day X. Those prices have never had anything to do with what it costs to produce the commodity in question. Not ment to continue the argument simply to state that I may have finally gotten the question you were trying to ask.

NumberSix -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/6/2008 7:17:08 PM)
Well, to the op. I know Archie runs a business. Here's the thing. For folks like him that position themselves as small business, they aint making any sort of hay over the increase in the price of cowhide (you gotta feed cows with corn and other commodities). So; while the price of leather goes up, and Archie can eat it or not; (and I wouldn't) I can goddamn guarntee in his business, profits are not climbing while the cost of leather climbs. So, should we litigate Energy Companies........sure. Like Big Tobacco, when the price of oil climbs and consequetially, oil companies profits rise, it is clear that they are taking advantage of the rise. That says that their business model is flawed and they are incapable of doing unregulated business. 6

Vaughner -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/6/2008 7:23:17 PM)
Just my 2 cents on the Oil Issue. 1 If you don't want Oil to be so pricy, stop allowing polticicians to declare resource-rich areas as wildlife preserves. I am not just talking about Alaska either. Energy prices in this country for home electricity would not be nearly as high if Bill Clinton had not declared the largest low-sulfur coal reserve in the entire world to be a Nature Preserve. Now we buy all of it from India. If we mined our own oil in the real quanities we are capable of from Alaska, Florida, California, and Texas we wouldn't have this problem. And please don't give me that crap about how the Alaskan nature preserve is to protect the Elk and Caribou. Its the largest state in the union and so under-populated the Government will actually pay you to live there. There's plenty of room for the cute and fuzzy animals in places where we don't need the local resources. Also blame the oil companies all you want but consider this. When gas was exactly 3.00 Dollars a Gallon national average, the oil company made 8-15 cents in profit off of that gallon. The Federal Government made a $1.50 despite contributing nothing what so ever to providing the product. The rest is eaten up by expenses. Now there is still a way to fix these things without drilling in the reserve, and without suspending the gas tax. The United States is the single largest producer of food in the entire world. We send an incredible amount of it overseas to countries like Iraq, Iran, Israel, Jordan, Syria, and Kuwait in the name of good will. If we really wanted to fix this problem we would tell these countries "One bushel of wheat for one barrel of oil, take it or starve." (I leave Kuwait out of the equation just presented because they are the only nation the US has ever given aid to that actually tried to do something to show its appreciation. Paid the cost of the entire First Iraq War, and offered money for Katrina Relief before collections were even taken up) As far as the rest of those nations go, use the food to set the price. Its not like we don't have options on how to fix the problem, just no one is willing to do it.

NumberSix -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/6/2008 7:36:57 PM)
Your post is not the most uninformed I have ever seen; nor is it the least intelligent, but it has a place in history among the least of something, I am sure. 6

Irishknight -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/6/2008 7:41:40 PM)
Didn't someone try oil for guns .. I mean food?

Archer -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/6/2008 7:43:11 PM)
NumberSix, close to accurate. But believe me I up the prices of my goods regularly as the price of doing business rises. I try to keep my profit margin close to the same adjusting prices every year or so. The difference is I can only raise my prices to a certain level before people stop buying, and with my products that comes a hell of a lot quicker than it does for something like Oil. Now the Oil companies know beyond any doubt that they can pass along most if not all of their increased cost of raw materials because people are just not going to stop buying gasoline, they have put themselves into the corner by and large where they simply cant reduce their consumption by very much. (buying inefficient cars, buying homes far away from their jobs, building oil fired electricity generation units instead of units fueled by something else). Add to thatthe fact that India and China have started to be able to compete with us for the same limited supply of oil. And we as a nation have painted ourselves into a bad corner. I've used this same general idea to show the falacy of minimum wage laws and how those labor costs will be passed on to the consumer whenever possible.

Vaughner -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/6/2008 7:49:05 PM)
Archer is of course right, and on that note I have heard more than once the suggestion of a "Windfall Profit's Tax"...anyone think the companies are really going to eat that cost? Or that its just going to get passed on again if that were ever to come to pass. Mine our own oil in quantitiy, and yes forbid its sale to overseas interests and we wouldn't have this problem.

Archer -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/6/2008 7:52:33 PM)
It's already been proven if we don't start drilling off the west coast of Florida someone else will. China is drilling there based on a Cuban Lease yet Florida State Government maintains that the US companies will not be permitted to do so.

NumberSix -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/6/2008 7:52:47 PM)
But Archer (and I hope you don't think I am dissing you by calling you Archie) you; as a reasonable business man must make a profit, for what does it profit a man to ride a bobsled to hell? As an aside, everything with leather is going up, it costs more to feed an animal, so the hide costs more, the softeners you use cost more, the machines (dwindling in time, nobody is really making leather lasts and sewing machines anymore) and if they are, they wont handle it like the old castiron jobs. Bujt my point was, even though you may scrape out a living, you are not embarrassed by a high leather price (raw material)and a embarrassment of profit simultaneously .) While there is no doubt to be competitive,. that you must take advantage of your arts, skills, and knowledge, it would be of some disgruntlement to see you go beyond what is reasonable for anyone to grab a handle on. Ron

pinksugarsub -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/6/2008 8:00:20 PM)
There's no valid comparision between the Big Tobacco civil litigation and a criminal prosecution under the Anti-Trust Act. Big Tobacco was sued by states like Florida that passed (blatantly unconstutional) laws, under which an entire industry (only Big Tobacco though; not gun mnaufacturers or anyone like that) for 'harm' done as demonstrated by the states' expenses in Medicaid payments for treatment of lung cancer patients, etc. Each of the Big Tobacco companies' share of the damages was determined based on a showing of their 'market share' for the years at issue. States won awards in the billions and promptly frittered the money away. The price of cigarettes rose and poor P/pl who smoke got screwed. Compare what i suggested for Big Oil: a series of criminal prosecutions of CEO's and other high ranking individuals for a variety of crimes, including the most obvious, price fixing. Successful prosecutions of these individuals, followed by incarceration for many, many years in a federal pen. BTW Archer, an annual report of financial matters, made by a substantial corporation, is so subject to manipulation and outright lies that during the '80's and '90's, most of the Big Audit Firms went under, merged, or otherwise had to react, as awards in the millions were routinely handed down against them. In one case i personally worked on, the audit firm, investment house, legal firm and other codefendants were sued together for their roles in concealing the actual financial state of a failed insurance company. They settled out of court before trial for $150 million. The proposal to nationalise the Big Oil companies is very appealing and probably much faster and more effective than criminal prosecutions under the Anti-Trust Act. But then, why not do both? pinksugarsub

Archer -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/6/2008 8:02:41 PM)
Bottom line is if it gets to the point where it no longer makes me a reasonable profit margin, I will simply quit. I have a horridly crass manner of handling folks who complain about my prices. I raise them just for that person. Had a guy complain once on a $70 price and when he asked again how much I told him $90. That went back and forth for a few times and it got to the point where the price I set for him was about $150. I finally got to the point where I asked him the simple question. OK guy tell me something, How high a price do I have to set before you get out of my face? He finally went away. When people tell me they can buy something someplace else for less, I tell them "Good then go buy it." But now I have gone wayyyyyyy off topic. LOL

Archer -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/6/2008 8:07:15 PM)
I have no problem with the idea of auditing the companies to make sure thy are recording and reporting the revenues and expenses properly. Price Fixing so you are contending that they are fixing the prices they buy the oil at???? Because they buy more oil than they produce themselves. so why would they fix the price they spend higher????? The price for a barrel of oil is auctioned at the commodity markets, I'm unsure how you intend to show that they have fixed the NYME process without crossing the SEC. But please feel free to show me how they have done that.

Irishknight -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/6/2008 8:08:41 PM)
The question that I have after reading certain posts is, did the price they are paying for oil rise in proportion to the price we are paying? And what of all the other products they make from the crude oil such as kerosene, diesel, and a whole long list of others. Did thier percentages equal out on those too? If the percentage of rise in manufacturing cost is equal or less than percentage of the rise in cost to us then its fair enough. If they went above that margin then they would be gouging us for that little extra which is wrong. I started to do the math by looking back over the past few years but then I realized that I hate math.

Leatherist -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/6/2008 8:09:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer Bottom line is if it gets to the point where it no longer makes me a reasonable profit margin, I will simply quit. I have a horridly crass manner of handling folks who complain about my prices. I raise them just for that person. Had a guy complain once on a $70 price and when he asked again how much I told him $90. That went back and forth for a few times and it got to the point where the price I set for him was about $150. I finally got to the point where I asked him the simple question. OK guy tell me something, How high a price do I have to set before you get out of my face? He finally went away. When people tell me they can buy something someplace else for less, I tell them "Good then go buy it." But now I have gone wayyyyyyy off topic. LOL You do that too? I used to tell people who wanted custom this: You can have it now. You can have it cheap. Or you can have it right. pick TWO. [:D]

Griswold -> RE: Should We Litigate With Gas Companies? (6/6/2008 8:11:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer It's already been proven if we don't start drilling off the west coast of Florida someone else will. China is drilling there based on a Cuban Lease yet Florida State Government maintains that the US companies will not be permitted to do so. Is that stunning...or what? (Added / Edited to say): We're selling away our rights. Vaughner makes several (occasionally disjointed) good points...probably the most significant being...we have to stop dissallowing drilling within our continental....as well as anywhere else we have reasonable influence. As has been stated so well, so many times....it's a supply issue. When we don't have it....others charge more. It's fairly simple math.

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