Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms

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AAkasha -> Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms (6/3/2008 12:20:48 PM)
A hypothetical scenario to spark some discussion.... A femdom-oriented couple are on a long road trip (driving). They make a pit stop to get gas and the submissive handles getting the gasoline and paying the bill. The femdom finds herself disappointed when they leave and he fails to ask her if she'd like something to drink before they get back on the road. In her opinion, he should be attentive to her needs, and he should know that a soda or water might be a nice thing to offer. This, in her opinion, is proactive, attentive submission. Is he a bad sub? The submissive's point of view, after they discuss it later, is that all she needs to do is ask and he'd be happy to get her something, he just didn't think about it. So, what's the proper protocol here? A) A submissive should be attentive enough to know to offer/ask such simple things like whether or not she'd like something to drink B) A submissive does as told and is HAPPY to help with anything, but he is not a mind reader. A dominant woman should not be afraid to speak up if she wants something, that's why he likes dominant women - they say what they want! C) A submissive should just go buy her the drink without even asking and bring it back to her whether she asked or not - he's always thinking about her. Thoughts? Akasha

Madame4a -> RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms (6/3/2008 12:23:17 PM)
I don't expect anyone to read my mind, however, I find that anticipatory service, without being annoying or overly assumptive, is exceptional. I like it and will reward it. Its rare.

WalterRego -> RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms (6/3/2008 12:38:32 PM)
By the time they go on a roadtrip together, the submissive should already know what her preferences are and as to whether he should have gotten the drink for her or asked her. Absent such knowledge, a wise submissive will follow the protocol of always having an insulated carrier with drinks and other snacks she might like in the back seat. Otherwise, he should just buy the drink and keep it (in an insulated bag of ice) in the car. If she says something about a drink he can say, "I wasn't sure which one You'd be in the mood for so I bought a selection of three different kinds, which would You like?" If she doesn't ask or say anything, he can take one out for himself and take a sip before she decides that she's thirsty after all and would like the one he just opened. This last option will save him the embarrassment later of having to wear a diaper while he drives because she wants him to continue driving for another hour or two and if he had only offered to get her a drink at the last gas stop, she might have wanted to stop for a pee now too.

Madame4a -> RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms (6/3/2008 12:40:01 PM)
[:D] Move to my state, please [:D] quote: ORIGINAL: WalterRego By the time they go on a roadtrip together, the submissive should already know what her preferences are and as to whether he should have gotten the drink for her or asked her. Absent such knowledge, a wise submissive will follow the protocol of always having an insulated carrier with drinks and other snacks she might like in the back seat. Otherwise, he should just buy the drink and keep it (in an insulated bag of ice) in the car. If she says something about a drink he can say, "I wasn't sure which one You'd be in the mood for so I bought a selection of three different kinds, which would You like?" If she doesn't ask or say anything, he can take one out for himself and take a sip before she decides that she's thirsty after all and would like the one he just opened. This last option will save him the embarrassment later of having to wear a diaper while he drives because she wants him to continue driving for another hour or two and if he had only offered to get her a drink at the last gas stop, she might have wanted to stop for a pee now too.

ShaktiSama -> RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms (6/3/2008 12:40:10 PM)
Anticipatory service is a tough gig. I do not think any sub is "bad" because he cannot read someone's mind; in this case he already filled the car with gas and paid for the bill, because he understood that those things were needful. Under ideal circumstances he might ask if she wanted any refreshments as well, perhaps, but I honestly think that "being disappointed" or sulking and fuming because someone did not anticipate or intuit an unspoken desire is a useful or grown-up thing to do. No one's interests are ever served in a relationship by failing to express your wants, needs and epectations clearly. In my case, if I had a yen for a soda I'd probably give him a playful smack on the ass and say "fetch me a Diet Pepsi too, slut!" And he could then prove his subby goodness by asking whether I want the wild cherry, ginseng or regular variety. [;)]

LadyPact -> RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms (6/3/2008 12:40:39 PM)
This one is actually an easy one for Me. Anybody who knows Me, knows that I am a diet pepsi fanatic. If I'm in the car, there's one with Me. If I've finished it, I'm probably going to want another. I only want ice if I specify it. Because I'm so much in the habit, this isn't hard to figure out. It is anticipatory service. However, I am very much the type to be specific in saying that I want a drink, if I need one. I wouldn't consider anyone a 'bad sub' because they couldn't read My mind. I don't expect anyone to have skills that I don't have (such as ESP) so I don't put unrealistic expectations on anyone. ETA, Shatki, I see there is something we agree on, after all.

darchChylde -> RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms (6/3/2008 12:43:50 PM)
i believe it really depends on the situation. If that is what she desires, she should make it clear and at least ask if she does not have a drink. On the other hand, if it he consistantly does not seek her desires in this manner; she should reconsider this relationship. Casual time is just that, and it is impossible to be on your p's and q's at all times; sometimes i even go to the restroom without asking Ma'ams permission. One should try to anticipate their dominant's needs, but should draw the line at assuming what those needs are. On a long road trip, it should be easy to figure out that anyone would get thirsty; but road trips can get tiring, especially for the driver. i believe that if she doesn't want to help pump the gas, wipe the windows, kick the tires, check the fluid levels of the car or handle things at the register (all things one should occasionally pay attention to on long trip); then she should accept that his mind is weary and handling plenty of other responsibilities and get up and stretch her legs while gathering what she desires in the convenience store. Getting upset about such an oversight is ridiculous unless this is consistant behavior. Now, if he grabbed his own drink; well, dude needs to man up. In that case, it's not even about being submissive; but being inconsiderate and ungentlemanly.

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms (6/3/2008 12:43:57 PM)
~FR~ Both A and B. A, because it's just polite. My SO always asks if I want something when we're on a long drive and stop for gas. He's not submissive to me, just thoughtful. I'd expect my s-type to be equally thoughtful. My SO is a mind reader, at least where I'm concerned. We're just that in tune with each other. I'd expect my s-type to be equally in tune with my desires/needs in a LTR. But it only goes so far and I'm not going to expect either of them to know I want something or what that something might be. So also B, because if I want something, I'll darn well say so!

pixelslave -> RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms (6/3/2008 12:47:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha A) A submissive should be attentive enough to know to offer/ask such simple things like whether or not she'd like something to drink B) A submissive does as told and is HAPPY to help with anything, but he is not a mind reader. A dominant woman should not be afraid to speak up if she wants something, that's why he likes dominant women - they say what they want! C) A submissive should just go buy her the drink without even asking and bring it back to her whether she asked or not - he's always thinking about her. Thoughts? Akasha I'd rule out C. If A is what a Domme wants/expects from her submissive, then she should train him in anticipatory service. She needs to let him know, that's her expectation of him. Otherwise, I'd expect her to receive B from most submissives. From me, she'd likely get some combination of A and B, depending on how focused I was on the travel ahead and because I'm not perfect enough to remember those things all the time. [;)] So if I forget to be a gentleman and don't do A, she always has the option of exerting her dominance, or being another human being, and asking that her needs be met by letting me know what her needs are before we leave. There's no doubt that if I wanted something to drink, I'd automatically think to do A, otherwise there are times I might need to be reminded, especially if we were in a hurry to get going again. [&:] I'd also add that if we were on a long road trip as you've said in your hypothetical example, I'd somewhat expect my Mistress to want to stretch her legs. In doing so, most women I've known would likely walk into the gas station to use the rest room, and perhaps choose something to drink on their own while inside, making the question of A, B or C, totally moot. Ditto if we had a cooler in the car that had drinks in it for us, which would likely be the case if I were taking a Mistress on a long road trip. [8\|] - pixel

solvr70 -> RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms (6/3/2008 12:50:25 PM)
i can only speak for myself, but i can't read minds. over time, more and more services the Domme likes would become known and second nature to me. but these things take time, and would not ever make me able to read One's mind.

AAkasha -> RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms (6/3/2008 12:55:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama Anticipatory service is a tough gig. I do not think any sub is "bad" because he cannot read someone's mind; in this case he already filled the car with gas and paid for the bill, because he understood that those things were needful. Under ideal circumstances he might ask if she wanted any refreshments as well, perhaps, but I honestly think that "being disappointed" or sulking and fuming because someone did not anticipate or inuit an unspoken desire is a useful or grown-up thing to do. No one's interests are ever served in a relationship by failing to express your wants, needs and epectations clearly. In my case, if I had a yen for a soda I'd probably give him a playful smack on the ass and say "fetch me a Diet Pepsi too, slut!" And he could then prove his subby goodness by asking whether I want the wild cherry, ginseng or regular variety. [;)] I see some (vanilla and femdom) women being irritated or disappointed in their man because he isn't proactive enough, and I get frustrated with the women because all they need to do is be more direct and state their expectations and men, by their nature, almost always follow instructions. This is a man/woman issue to me, and I think men in general appreciate a woman who is straight forward about what she wants and just opens her mouth and he'd be happy to follow the instructions if given them. That's how the male brain (most of the time) works. On the other hand, I am with a man who is extremely proactive and "anticipatory" - but he's that way about everything, not just me. So I am somewhat spoiled in this arena, and that's why I got to thinking about this question. In past relationships, I had situations where men either just needed to be told flat out what I wanted, which was fine, or other men that sort of "wanted" to be "told" because that was better (more fun) than being proactive - and that got tiresome. I'm in a relationship now where everything is handled so much before it becomes a need in my head that it's almost bad, because I am really reliant on him. That's another issue entirely. I've had other relationships where men were so service oriented that it was annoying - ie "can I get you anything? are you sure you don't need anything? I know I asked you ten minutes ago, but I just want to be sure?" -- so even a good thing can be bad. Akasha

ShaktiSama -> RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms (6/3/2008 1:03:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact ETA, Shatki, I see there is something we agree on, after all. We agree on lots of things, actually, and agree to disagree respectfully on many more.

aidan -> RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms (6/3/2008 1:04:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama In my case, if I had a yen for a soda I'd probably give him a playful smack on the ass and say "fetch me a Diet Pepsi too, slut!" And he could then prove his subby goodness by asking whether I want the wild cherry, ginseng or regular variety. [;)] They make ginseng Diet Pepsi now? Bwah? Have I been buying the wrong the kind?

stella41b -> RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms (6/3/2008 1:05:46 PM)
Depending on how long this couple have been together it's either A or C. A if it's the short term, IMHO because it's an equal relationship which both work on together, he makes the offer but leaves it up to her to decide - she's the Domme, she decides, and he bases what happens next or what should happen next on her decision. However in the longer term it's C because said sub is a good sub (otherwise it wouldn't be a long term relationship would it now?) and knows from both his Partner's facial expression, preferences, the situation and context of that specific situation that she needs a drink. Little things like this would be done automatically. However the ideal is D - he's prepared her a comfort bag with drinks and ice box before they set off, she has the money, and she decides what and he goes off and carries out what she's decided. No such thing as a bad sub, or a bad Domme, just couples who communicate more effectively than others.

LadyPact -> RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms (6/3/2008 1:06:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact ETA, Shatki, I see there is something we agree on, after all. We agree on lots of things, actually, and agree to disagree respectfully on many more. Yes, I happen to think that last part is to our credit.

solvr70 -> RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms (6/3/2008 1:06:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha I see some (vanilla and femdom) women being irritated or disappointed in their man because he isn't proactive enough, and I get frustrated with the women because all they need to do is be more direct and state their expectations and men, by their nature, almost always follow instructions. This is a man/woman issue to me, and I think men in general appreciate a woman who is straight forward about what she wants and just opens her mouth and he'd be happy to follow the instructions if given them. That's how the male brain (most of the time) works. Akasha oh, i do agree with that. in vanilla life the same seems to be true. often i'm expected to be able to read her mind. i try my best, but obviously fail miserably a good bit of the time

LadyPact -> RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms (6/3/2008 1:13:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama In my case, if I had a yen for a soda I'd probably give him a playful smack on the ass and say "fetch me a Diet Pepsi too, slut!" And he could then prove his subby goodness by asking whether I want the wild cherry, ginseng or regular variety. [;)] <Whispers in aidan's ear, to give him some advice> The new stuff is called Diet Pepsi Max. It does have the ginsing, as well as caffeiene, so if She is big on her diet pepsi for an extra boost, you might want to pick some up. It is especially good for things like the above example, i.e., long road trips. I'll bet you can get a special smile from Her, if you have some choices available. They make ginseng Diet Pepsi now? Bwah? Have I been buying the wrong the kind?

TwoNYCDommes -> RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms (6/3/2008 1:16:20 PM)
If they are an established couple, I would expect him to have some sense of how proactive she wants/expects him to be. For myself, I would prefer Option A. In general, when a sub is uncertain of what I might want, he should ask me. Option C would require him to guess my whim of the moment, which I would not expect him to do accurately. However, if I wanted a drink and the submissive failed to offer me one (Option B), I would not have sat silently/helplessly until we were back on the road. I would have pointed out his omission while it was still possible for him to make reparations.

TermsConditions -> RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms (6/3/2008 1:29:06 PM)
All generalizations are for rhetorical purposes only. These things are almost universally true in most / all female - male relationships: He is wrong. He should apologize. This is a constant state of being regardless of circumstances. What man has not held his tongue and said, "of course you are right, Dear. I am so sorry" in response to some imagined offence? In a relationship it's part of being committed -- the same way he will find himself in an asylum. From my perspective of crystalline ignorance, the D/s aspect would seem to formalize and amplify his depravity. She is to lead; he to follow. Both know he requires her civilizing influence. His actions are bad manners. In the absence of women men don’t really give a hang about manners. Look inside a locker room or a men’s dorm (you know you want to but don't say I didn't warn you. It's pretty gross.) :-) . Manners and civilization are what a man endures for the privilege of being in the presence of a woman. For God-only-knows-what reason she has deigned to take him on and try to keep him walking upright and keep him from wearing his pants backward. He knows he is wrong and lives in a state of wrongness. Only her grace save him from his own wretchedness. And so he makes a deal with his inner demons. If he behaves well he enjoys her company. Anything less is to risk being expelled like Mephistopheles from the presence of the divine. I would imagine a dominant female would treat such an event as a Teachable Moment. If expectations and protocols had not previously been discussed this is the perfect opportunity.The correct course of action is clear communication between both parties and then he should do what she says.

DominantJenny -> RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms (6/3/2008 1:35:09 PM)
FR I don't expect a submissive to read my mind, and I don't expect much from someone new (in fact, TOO much effort that way is a turn off for me, as it just feels needy), but I DO expect that, over time, my preferences will be learned and attention will be paid. Before he went in, did he check the cup holder? Did I still have enough water (my general drink of choice - which it would take maybe a week at most to learn about me) to last till the end of the trip? If yes, then don't get more. If no, then get more. If you don't, I'm not going to be angry unless I'm already in a bad mood/you've already screwed up two or three times today, but it will be a minor, temporary black mark till you redeem yourself through some particularly thoughtful action. Yeah, if I'm in a bad mood or you've screwed up previously, I'll probably bitch at you for being thoughtless and you'd better do your damndest to make it up to me at the first available opportunity...and I'll be watching and call you on it if you don't. I know it's my own damn fault if I'm in a bad mood, but I never claimed to be perfect...although MOST of the time I'm in a bad mood BECAUSE you screwed up, so...:P

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