RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? (Full Version)

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girl4you2 -> RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? (10/28/2005 11:30:55 AM)

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OrlandoMars -> RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? (10/28/2005 11:47:13 AM)

I think you will find that Doms fall into two categories on this issue: those who really do encourage intelligent thought and those who play lip service to the concept. The former understand that subs are (ghasp) human to and have a right to their own feelings. They also understand that the sweetest fruit is the one that falls from the tree under its own volition. In other words, it is far more enticing to have someone give you your submission who fully understands what that means and why they want to do that. The "Doms" who play lip service to it merely think they want intelligence but the truth is, that they often have a hard time managing their D/s relationships because they really don't value intelligence. I consider it somewhat akin to the subs who are not allowed to talk to other Dominants. While I value loyalty highly, I also value my subs ability to be loyal and to call on me when she feels that she is dealing with a situation that may bring her loyalty into doubt.



pinkpleasures -> RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? (10/28/2005 12:24:35 PM)

Laffing..i have enough degrees for a thermometer, but i am not bright enough for Sartoris32801...i have no math skills; no geo skills; and cannot understand the appeal of any sport, including baseball.

i think we are all blessed with certain gifts, and the IQ test leaves so much of real "intelligence" untested and unconsidered.

i can sue the lightbulb manufacturer and win; but i cannot change the lightbulb, he he.

pinkpleasures



sub4hire -> RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? (10/28/2005 12:59:06 PM)

quote:

i don't understand this at all. what they want and what they then expect seem to be at odds. why ask for a woman with a brain, but then not want to hear anything of free thought?


Not reading the entire thread, just throwing in my two cents here.

Doms want someone who can challenge them. Just because you are intelligent does not mean you will revolt. You will enhance your dom. If you're a doormat you're going to make your dom look bad in some situations...causing him or her embarassement.

Which would you rather have? Of course some people do like doormats, they are so easily abused.
Some are just out to abuse.

A good dom always's wants to know what is going on in your head. That way they can delve deeper within. The play becomes much more intense when you know more about a person.



CitizenCane -> RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? (10/28/2005 1:03:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir


quote:

ORIGINAL: CitizenCane

First, let me say this isn't directed at anyone in particular. I do note, however, that it's not uncommon for people, in or out of this lifestyle, to significantly overestimate their own intelligence- as well as their beauty, charm, various skills and pretty much anything else you can think of (well, okay, nobody seems to overestimate their own weight...).


Cane


If I could refine that a bit - it seems to me not that people in general overestimate their virtues, but rather that those lower on the scale tend to overestimate when ranking themselves, and those who truly are endowed with virtues tend to deprecate and "self-check."

There was a study published in the "Journal of Personality and Social Psychology" (Dec 2000) by Kruger and Dunning. They found the people who scored lowest in a series of tests (logic, humor, grammar) belived they had scored much higher, while those who scored in the highest percentiles underestimated their performance grossly.

I don't know that this is an absolute, or carries to every self-estimate, but it dovetails with my anecdotal experience. Truly competent people are always engaged in self-checking - dolts are convinced of their superiority.




I've observed much the same thing. I think of it as the 'small dog syndrome', as in the little poodles that snarl and snap at the great danes. It seems to me, though, that modesty tends to be in short supply until the gifts involved are pretty substantial. Not always, just too often.
Did the study you read indicate any reason for the self-checking operations of the bright? Is it cognizance of one's own limitations, or an enhanced awareness of the foolishness of others? Is it specific to particular cultures, or a universal phenomenon?
It seems to me that modesty, in one form or another, was once considered an important virtue in most of the major world cultures, but it is not publicly valued now. Self-advertisement seems to be the road to success- which, if this theory is correct, could explain much of the mediocrity of public figures.




pinkpleasures -> RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? (10/28/2005 1:03:37 PM)

quote:

Not reading the entire thread, just throwing in my two cents here.

Doms want someone who can challenge them. Just because you are intelligent does not mean you will revolt. You will enhance your dom. If you're a doormat you're going to make your dom look bad in some situations...causing him or her embarassement.

Which would you rather have? Of course some people do like doormats, they are so easily abused.
Some are just out to abuse.

A good dom always's wants to know what is going on in your head. That way they can delve deeper within. The play becomes much more intense when you know more about a person.

sub4hire


i do agree, but what i cannot understand is what intelligence has to do with it? It seems to me more about honor, honesty and trust...and anyone can possess or fail to possess such qualities.

pinkpleasures



CitizenCane -> RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? (10/28/2005 1:12:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrlandoMars

I think you will find that Doms fall into two categories on this issue: those who really do encourage intelligent thought and those who play lip service to the concept. The former understand that subs are (ghasp) human to and have a right to their own feelings. They also understand that the sweetest fruit is the one that falls from the tree under its own volition. In other words, it is far more enticing to have someone give you your submission who fully understands what that means and why they want to do that. The "Doms" who play lip service to it merely think they want intelligence but the truth is, that they often have a hard time managing their D/s relationships because they really don't value intelligence. I consider it somewhat akin to the subs who are not allowed to talk to other Dominants. While I value loyalty highly, I also value my subs ability to be loyal and to call on me when she feels that she is dealing with a situation that may bring her loyalty into doubt.


Let me suggest a third category- Doms who don't think intelligence is all it's cracked up to be. While some doms want a submissive who is all things to them, others don't. A D/s relationship can operate just fine around traits like loyalty, obedience, passion, eagerness to please, and so on. While some people really are just too stupid to be around, I think the base level of intelligence necessary to be a good person, a good sub or a good slave is all pretty low. Past that threshold, I'd say each of the traits I mentioned are more important than any great increment of intelligence.




sub4hire -> RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? (10/28/2005 1:16:54 PM)

quote:

i do agree, but what i cannot understand is what intelligence has to do with it? It seems to me more about honor, honesty and trust...and anyone can possess or fail to possess such qualities.


Intelligence was asked within the question. Intelligence also lends itself to your dom.
For instance, as you already know I re-built a home. My dom is a computer geek. He has no clue when something goes wrong. With me around I can fix most anything.
Whether it be intellectual or working with my hands I pick it up rather easily.

It is about integrity and trust as well. However, personally if I were seeking a submissive I'd want them to have something within their head. To help me when needed...not only for house stuff. That was just an example. But to help me all around.

Of course this goes back to....you may be a dom to your partner but I may not see you as dominant either. There are different levels. I've seen doms who could'nt dom anything but they did quite well with their submissives. Get anyone else and they would fall on their faces. Just as with me, I need a strong dom to get in my head. Someone weak would crumble. So, many view me as a having dominant traits. Yet, outside of my profession I have never dominated a single person in life nor do I have a desire to.

Well, I have gotten into peoples heads to help them. Although as far as the lifestyle goes and play and all of that...never.



Faramir -> RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? (10/28/2005 1:26:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CitizenCane

Did the study you read indicate any reason for the self-checking operations of the bright? Is it cognizance of one's own limitations, or an enhanced awareness of the foolishness of others? Is it specific to particular cultures, or a universal phenomenon?
It seems to me that modesty, in one form or another, was once considered an important virtue in most of the major world cultures, but it is not publicly valued now. Self-advertisement seems to be the road to success- which, if this theory is correct, could explain much of the mediocrity of public figures.




Strict-

1) The researchers identified two factors at work in the widely differing self-assesments. They felt the same low skillset that led to low scores hinders self-assesment: the incompetent are not very competent at self-assesment. At the same time, the competent engage in what Dunning calls the "false consensus effect." Those who scored in the highest percentiles assumed that others where like them - they assumed their performance was mean performance. Once those same individuals graded a cross-section of peer's tests, they re-assessed themselves higher. Presented with feedback for a self-assesment, the competent self-assesed correctly (the incompetent did not).

2) Yes this appears to vary by culture. I read about a meta-study from Steve Heine, Univ of BC, that shows self-inflation of worth to be a more pervasive Western phenomen. This may be tied to a cultural perception of "succes." Heine found that American and Canadian medical students do better when they are encouraged - when they think they are succesful or will be succesful, they tend to perform better. When they think of themselves as "failures" they perform more poorly. Japanese, Korean and Chinese students worked harder and were more succesful when they had "failed." The results of the study were a symmetrical "X" across the East-West divide.

While I agree that modesty is not a virtue much present in our present culture, I'm not sure if I would put any of this to modesty though. Modesty seems to me to be a moral virtue, seperate from this skillset suite that leads to competence or incompetence, (which includes competence and self-assesment).



Raphael -> RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? (10/28/2005 1:27:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: girl4you2

i don't understand this at all. what they want and what they then expect seem to be at odds. why ask for a woman with a brain, but then not want to hear anything of free thought?


I can only speak for myself, and I have no idea who you have dealt with before or what they may or may not want or respect.

I value a girl who is intelligent. That is one quality among many which I value.

However, it is not a slaves place to speak out of turn. When her intelligent counsel is desired, it is asked for. If it is volunteered out of turn, without being invited, that might well be a problem.




Raphael -> RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? (10/28/2005 1:34:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures
i respectfully ask the following questions:

1. What is meant when anyone says they want intelligence in their partner? Do they mean "above-average intelligence"? Educational or career success?

2. Does anyone recognise "emotional intelligence" and if so, do you think it can exist apart from above-average IQ?

3. What of people of normal intelligence? Are they attractive to you?

4. Is there a place for a person with below-average intelligence in BDSM?

Just curious...to me "intelligence" is not a fixed term, communicating the same ideas to us all at once.



I would say:

1. Above average intelligence. Preferably significantly above.

2. Yes, I do recognise it, and yes, it's a very different thing. And, even though you didn't ask, yes, I consider it also to be valuable.

3. "Normal intelligence" by itself, no, that is not attractive or particularly valuable. However, someone of normal intelligence may have other qualities that are attractive and valuable, of course. It's quite possible for someone of average or even below-average intelligence to be attractive and valuable for other reasons.

4. Of course. See 3.

>R



Raphael -> RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? (10/28/2005 1:37:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: girl4you2
it would be so much easier, i think, were i to be not thinking so much.


Yes, as in many other things, intelligence can make submission much harder.

Doesn't mean it isn't worth it.

Chin up, it gets better.

>R



CitizenCane -> RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? (10/28/2005 1:54:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir


quote:

ORIGINAL: CitizenCane

Did the study you read indicate any reason for the self-checking operations of the bright? Is it cognizance of one's own limitations, or an enhanced awareness of the foolishness of others? Is it specific to particular cultures, or a universal phenomenon?
It seems to me that modesty, in one form or another, was once considered an important virtue in most of the major world cultures, but it is not publicly valued now. Self-advertisement seems to be the road to success- which, if this theory is correct, could explain much of the mediocrity of public figures.




Strict-

1) The researchers identified two factors at work in the widely differing self-assesments. They felt the same low skillset that led to low scores hinders self-assesment: the incompetent are not very competent at self-assesment. At the same time, the competent engage in what Dunning calls the "false consensus effect." Those who scored in the highest percentiles assumed that others where like them - they assumed their performance was mean performance. Once those same individuals graded a cross-section of peer's tests, they re-assessed themselves higher. Presented with feedback for a self-assesment, the competent self-assesed correctly (the incompetent did not).

2) Yes this appears to vary by culture. I read about a meta-study from Steve Heine, Univ of BC, that shows self-inflation of worth to be a more pervasive Western phenomen. This may be tied to a cultural perception of "succes." Heine found that American and Canadian medical students do better when they are encouraged - when they think they are succesful or will be succesful, they tend to perform better. When they think of themselves as "failures" they perform more poorly. Japanese, Korean and Chinese students worked harder and were more succesful when they had "failed." The results of the study were a symmetrical "X" across the East-West divide.

While I agree that modesty is not a virtue much present in our present culture, I'm not sure if I would put any of this to modesty though. Modesty seems to me to be a moral virtue, seperate from this skillset suite that leads to competence or incompetence, (which includes competence and self-assesment).



Interesting stuff. As for modesty, I think that when it was an overtly embraced moral virtue, it may have had the effect of allowing people to be more forthcoming about their own shortcomings. In a more competitive environment, modesty is self-destructive. While I understand the point about competence, I also suspect that when applied to self-evaluation, competence is often distorted by conscious or sub-conscious issues of self-preservation. In other words, in a society or social setting where it's safe to be stupid, more people are likely to admit to it. If your job, grades, social standing or sense of self-worth are damaged by such an admission, you're less likely to be able to perceive that particular truth.




OrlandoMars -> RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? (10/28/2005 2:00:20 PM)

quote:

Let me suggest a third category- Doms who don't think intelligence is all it's cracked up to be


True, but the originally question implied Doms that specifically requested intelligence. I would say the thrid category Doms woul dnever both even mentioning it.



CitizenCane -> RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? (10/28/2005 2:04:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrlandoMars

quote:

Let me suggest a third category- Doms who don't think intelligence is all it's cracked up to be


True, but the originally question implied Doms that specifically requested intelligence. I would say the thrid category Doms woul dnever both even mentioning it.


True, I just got from your post an implication about doms re: intelligent subs in general, not a restricted case of 'two kinds of doms that ask for intelligent subs'. I'll try to assume you're focused on the original wording from now on.




Kasia -> RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? (10/28/2005 2:21:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sartoris32801

Top Ten Reasons:


So you can;

(1) Converse once the sex is over and the heads hit the pillows.
(2) Able to mingle socially on your own at a party and not cling to who brought you.
(3) Have outside interests i.e. employment, passion, hobby.
(4) Negotiate with a repair man, auto mechanic, landscape etc.
(5) Understand that just because you have checks left in the account, you may not have money in the account.
(6) Be able to read a book, so we can watch the ballgame in peace
(7) Able to answer a question without “ I don’t know what do you want to do”
(8) Know the importance of hitting the cut off man, and appreciate the absolute perfection that is, 90 feet to first base
(9) Know the difference between casual, business, and formal attire and when each is appropriate
(10)Reconcile a bank statement

Sartoris


I am not the smartest person in the world, but I dont think I am so stupid either...... some tests I did back in highschool said I was pretty intelligent. If that means anything really - I would prefere cunning instead.

As for my potential sub in correlation with me and my husband, I tend to disagree strongly with your Reasons.
(1) I dont chat after sex, neither my man does - we go to sleep. I would really prefere someone not interfering with my aftersex nap.
(2) Although I am not stupid, I dont mingle at parties on my own, I am too antisocial to do that. If you dont introduce me to people chances are I am going to spend entire night just looking around and mingling with my drink. And be quite happy.
(3) Do you really think that only intelligent people have jobs and hobbies?
(4) I dont negotiate with mechanics or any repair men - I dont know anything about those things and couldnt care less. That is what husbands are for.
(5) I know heaps of pretty smart people having great troubles with checks and bank accounts...... there are normally sensible and intelligent women who just go nuts when it comes to shopping. I dont, but I understand those that do.
(6) In 17 years of my first mariage, I never interferred with his ballgames. I was too happy to have couple of hours of peace to play Nintendo. I am not saying I dont read books - I do a lot, but I know intelligent people who never read more than newspapers...... I think it depends more on educational level than intelligence.
(7) “I don’t know what do you want to do” has in my opinion nothing to do with intelligence but with lack of selfesteem, or with lack of care about the particular person.... or with just being too lazy to decide. The easiest thing in the world is to say "I dont know..... etc", in fact I know some smart people doing it all the time.
(8) Guess this one is about sport of some kind? That is the least important thing in my life. When it comes to football ie, only thing I see is sweaty men with fat legs and brain capacity of a chicken. Less intelligent they are more money they get.
(9) Knowledge about proper attire comes with home training. In my family there are some really stupid females, but we all know how to dress for any occasion, we were raised like that. Actually I found out that stupid people usually pay very much attention to formalities.
(10) Love this one. I have a friend who writes wonderfull poetry, you can talk with her about the meaning of life and be amazed how deep and true her conclusions are. She is really good with dogs and small kids and has the most beautiful flower garden I have ever seen. But she is desperately lost when it comes to bank accounts - she is just not that type.

So if I am going to find a sub who resembles me and people I get along with, not any of your reasons for intelligent sub would apply in my case. And I dont really care if he/she is going to be intelligent..... I prefere people to have empathy and be compassionate much more.



KatyLied -> RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? (10/28/2005 3:06:21 PM)

quote:

(6) Be able to read a book, so we can watch the ballgame in peace


smile.
Not to be sexist, but I think he meant to say so *I* can watch the ballgame in peace.



TearCollector -> RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? (10/28/2005 3:42:29 PM)

I think some man (probably more than will admit) are intimidated by someone that may be smarter than them. While they say they want smart woman, reality is they suffer with a inferiority complex that causes issues in the relationship. As for the D’s, I think this places a tremendous burden on the slave to make extra effort in “keeping her head down” so to speak.

I would love to have the smartest woman on the planet be interested in me. But whats the odds of that…

Just my thoughts
TearCollector



domtimothy46176 -> RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? (10/28/2005 3:50:11 PM)

Speaking only for myself, I expect a balance between intelligence and the ability to accept that I may do it my way even when she thinks I'm wrong. I value her opinion and judgement but I still sometimes choose a path she disagrees with. At times she gets frustrated and accuses me of "not listening" when the truth is that I've listened, weighed the options and made my own choice.
I do understand, however, why it would be frustrating for her, or anyone, if it happens regularly.
Timothy



IronBear -> RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? (10/28/2005 4:30:08 PM)

Perhaps a Master should define the level and type of intelligence he is looking for. Does he want a lass who is a member or qualified to be a member of Mensa? Would he prefer some one with lets say a Masters Degree? Is he more likely to chose a girl who has a good general education and can turn her hand to most things and do them well on a daily basis. Is he looking for a lass with whom he may enjoy philisophical or even political debates? Maybe he simply wants a girl who has street smarts. Just saying you want someone who is intelligent still leaves many huge questions, especially as no two people have the same idea of what intelligence is.

Perhaps the more honest question to ask Masters and Mistresses may be; "Why don't you want an intelligent sub/slave?"



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