RE: A question of forgiveness (Full Version)

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RavenMuse -> RE: A question of forgiveness (6/7/2008 10:38:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
mmmmmmmm and maybe they are a turkey pretending to be a duck.   What you "Think" they are is not necessarily what they are.

Just because I think you are a fake.. doesn't mean you are.  any more than you say a person a duck when they call themselves a Cat.


you have a right to whatever opinion you want to have... it doesn't change a damn thing. The ONLY persons opinion that matters when it is how *I* view someone... is Mine.




KnightofMists -> RE: A question of forgiveness (6/7/2008 10:44:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse


you have a right to whatever opinion you want to have... it doesn't change a damn thing. The ONLY persons opinion that matters when it is how *I* view someone... is Mine.



I agree...   but the reality is that our individual opinions might be wrong or it might be right... what we think it is does not make it right.




IronBear -> RE: A question of forgiveness (6/7/2008 10:45:41 AM)

[hijack]

The use of lables such as Dominant, Master or Mistress, whilst generally being recognised as the status a person identifies as and presuably accts in accordance with, is mostly a personal perception and valid for the individual using that specific lable in any specified case. For example, a person may identify and be generally aclaimed as a Dominant and yet may not be such in the eyes of some. Both parties are correct each from their own perspective. If I see a man wearing a feather in his hair I am entitled to call him a duck or a turkey or anything I so desire even iuf i am the only person who does that. My view and identifying him as a duck is not invalidated because he is a human being it just means that I equate his behaviour, character and personality to be of the same or similar level as that of a biological duck one of whome may even be refered to as a man by someone else. it all boils down to how we use lables and our terms of reference. It is admittedly better for all, if we explain our unusuall usage of some lables so all cease to be confused.
{/hijack]

Iron Bear
Master of Bruin Cottage
(A Victorian Lifestyle poly home)

"I judge a Man by what I see him do and not by what others tell me he does."
(Captain Sir Edward Pellew of the HMS Indefatigable to Midshipman Hornblower ~ C.S. Forrester)





RavenMuse -> RE: A question of forgiveness (6/7/2008 10:56:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
I agree...   but the reality is that our individual opinions might be wrong or it might be right... what we think it is does not make it right.


It might not make you right [;)]

In this case I would catagoricaly state that anyone who would lie in such circumstances is someone I would laugh at if they then clamed to be a Dominant...Such are more dim than Dom!




KnightofMists -> RE: A question of forgiveness (6/7/2008 11:00:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

[hijack]

The use of lables such as Dominant, Master or Mistress, whilst generally being recognised as the status a person identifies as and presuably accts in accordance with, is mostly a personal perception and valid for the individual using that specific lable in any specified case. For example, a person may identify and be generally aclaimed as a Dominant and yet may not be such in the eyes of some. Both parties are correct each from their own perspective. If I see a man wearing a feather in his hair I am entitled to call him a duck or a turkey or anything I so desire even iuf i am the only person who does that. My view and identifying him as a duck is not invalidated because he is a human being it just means that I equate his behaviour, character and personality to be of the same or similar level as that of a biological duck one of whome may even be refered to as a man by someone else. it all boils down to how we use lables and our terms of reference. It is admittedly better for all, if we explain our unusuall usage of some lables so all cease to be confused.
{/hijack]


lets take this to a level of reality and forget about ducks and turkeys.  What about a transgender?  Is he a man... is she a women?  It is a rather complex issue when you consider the process a transgender is going through.  Should we just ignore the opinions and feelings that the actually transgender state of themself?  I suppose some could careless about what the transgender say of themselves.  I suppose some would always see a transgender as a man even though they have went through the process entirely.  I suppose some would evolve their label as the transgender evolves.  I suppose some would see a female even when biologically they are male at that given moment.  Labels are tricky stuff.... but when our own label that we impose is the only thing that matters... I wonder if it speaks well of oneself when we are so close-minded that only are view matters.  Admittedly, I have often ignored the opinions of others and I don't think it served me well to do. 




UncleNasty -> RE: A question of forgiveness (6/7/2008 11:08:41 AM)

There are, as others have alluded to, other options besides the ones you offered.

Forgiveness is complicated, or can be. It isn't a "get out of jail free card" for starters. You can't earn it without recognizing and acknowledging the consequences of your actions. You're not asking your fellow man to wipe your slate clean of any wrongdoing. You're taking full accountability for what you did. An understanding by both (or all) parties of the damage done, the pain caused, and who is responsible for such, is critical. Implicit in an apology, or a plea for forgiveness, is also a committment by the offending party not to engage in the same behavior (whatever it is/was) in the future. What is the point in asking to be forgiven for something one intends to continue doing, or doesn't intend to stop doing? Lack of intention can be as impactful as intention itself.

I may forgive you for doing ______ this time. It doesn't mean I will forgive you if you do ______ again.

As to "getting over it" I find that very few things can simply be swept under the rug without some destructive ramifications, either immediately, or at some future time. Making requests or demands like that are pretty much synonymous to saying "I don't give a shit about your feelings on this, and by extension about any of your feelings. In fact I don't value you as a person, as a human being, at all." That is usually a death knell for relationships - though it may take some time before the death happens fully.

Relationships are pretty much all about feelings - my feelings, her feelings, how we feel when together, when apart, how we deal with our own, how we deal with each others, how we nurture and care for each others feelings, etc., etc. Deal with them well and you grow and flourish. Don't and you stay mired in muck and mud until you part.

Uncle Nasty




IronBear -> RE: A question of forgiveness (6/7/2008 11:14:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

[hijack]

The use of lables such as Dominant, Master or Mistress, whilst generally being recognised as the status a person identifies as and presuably accts in accordance with, is mostly a personal perception and valid for the individual using that specific lable in any specified case. For example, a person may identify and be generally aclaimed as a Dominant and yet may not be such in the eyes of some. Both parties are correct each from their own perspective. If I see a man wearing a feather in his hair I am entitled to call him a duck or a turkey or anything I so desire even iuf i am the only person who does that. My view and identifying him as a duck is not invalidated because he is a human being it just means that I equate his behaviour, character and personality to be of the same or similar level as that of a biological duck one of whome may even be refered to as a man by someone else. it all boils down to how we use lables and our terms of reference. It is admittedly better for all, if we explain our unusuall usage of some lables so all cease to be confused.
{/hijack]


lets take this to a level of reality and forget about ducks and turkeys.  What about a transgender?  Is he a man... is she a women?  It is a rather complex issue when you consider the process a transgender is going through.  Should we just ignore the opinions and feelings that the actually transgender state of themself?  I suppose some could careless about what the transgender say of themselves.  I suppose some would always see a transgender as a man even though they have went through the process entirely.  I suppose some would evolve their label as the transgender evolves.  I suppose some would see a female even when biologically they are male at that given moment.  Labels are tricky stuff.... but when our own label that we impose is the only thing that matters... I wonder if it speaks well of oneself when we are so close-minded that only are view matters.  Admittedly, I have often ignored the opinions of others and I don't think it served me well to do. 



I completely agree with you. I know many people who refuse point blank to accept transgender people in a light other than the sex into which threy wrere born. That is their right. I don't say it is wrong not to accept people but I do say that it is wrong to discriminate against them. Personally I have social friends who are trans, some who are gay and others who are bi as well as some who are straight. Each is treated with respect as a person and for their choice. Were you tp go that path, I would treat and address you as a woman. That after all would be good manners at the very least..

Iron Bear
Master of Bruin Cottage
(A Victorian Lifestyle poly home)

"I judge a Man by what I see him do and not by what others tell me he does."
(Captain Sir Edward Pellew of the HMS Indefatigable to Midshipman Hornblower ~ C.S. Forrester)





Focus50 -> RE: A question of forgiveness (6/8/2008 2:33:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Raven,

Focus and you are using the word Dominant in different contexts.  You, Raven, are using the word in the context of who "we" are.  Focus is using it in a broader context, as in "all/most" who call themselves dominant and are the cause of 2/3 of the posts here, the same ones who think they can beat/guilt/beguile someone into being a better submissive.


As I said, His definition is different..... I don't care what someone calls themself.... a lying cheating weasel is no Dominant in My eyes.

They have a right to call themself whatever they want, but I have the right to see them for what they are... if it walks like a duck, has feathers and quacks, I am not going to take any notice of the "I am a Cat" label strung around its neck, apart from to laugh at it.

Geeez mate, they're all over ya like sunblock in Oz - give up yet?? [sm=tantrum.gif]
 
Focus. 




RavenMuse -> RE: A question of forgiveness (6/8/2008 4:29:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
Geeez mate, they're all over ya like sunblock in Oz - give up yet?? [sm=tantrum.gif]
 
Focus. 


Dream on [:D]  If other people want to validate lying cheating scumbags by accepting their self-label of Dom... that is their business. I don't see someone like that as being the same spiecies, let alone as Dominant. They don't get validation from Me.




KnightofMists -> RE: A question of forgiveness (6/8/2008 8:42:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Dream on [:D]  If other people want to validate lying cheating scumbags by accepting their self-label of Dom... that is their business. I don't see someone like that as being the same spiecies, let alone as Dominant. They don't get validation from Me.



I don't see anyone validating lying, cheating scumbag by accepting their self-label of Dom...

any more than I see anyone validating a close-mined pompus self-rightous ass by accepting their self-label of Dom.

I make a distinction between the character of a person and their Dominant personality... you obviously do not.  I also make a distinction between the character of a person and their submissive personality.

It's a distinction of Motivation vrs Methods.  There is many people that are motivated to be Dominant or submissive.... but their methods reflects the character of the person.  Some methods I do not respect and some I do..




julietsierra -> RE: A question of forgiveness (6/8/2008 11:31:50 AM)

I know I'm not a dominant, but speaking to this topic from the point of view of one who might be lied to, I'd like to add my two cents as to how I see this whole idea of forgiveness and/or "getting over it."

One of the things I like romanticizing about when it comes to D/s is everyone's penchant for telling the truth. In my romanticized version of D/s no one ever makes mistakes, dominants are always oh so dominating (and subsequently, never domineering), submissives are always obedient (and never ever passive aggressive), and neither of them ever chooses to lie - even in a weak moment.

And then, I remember that every one of us is human, every one of us makes mistakes and every one of us is capable of lying - especially in a weak moment. I recall my early years when at my parents' insistence, I took religious education classes and learned that people lie (sometimes more than once), even when they love someone, and that even though the lie can be huge, the liar can continue to be loved right back. And I learned that loving the liar right back can sometimes make him a better person after than he was before the lie.

And as I was taught, I attempt to turn the other cheek.

Now, I am not so "saintly" <cough cough> , nor so naive as to always accept the lie, and I CERTAINLY am not ever going to accept the premise that I should just "get over it," but I do try to remember that we're human and if the lie isn't something that is ongoing and prevalent in the relationship; if I do see a willingness to work on what's necessary for us to continue, I  work past it - IF he is willing.

The thing is, I don't want him asking forgiveness. I want us talking about a whole lot more than the actual lie told. I want to know why it was necessary to lie, what he didn't feel he could tell me and why. I want us to work through the difficulties the lie represents, not just the lie itself. I also don't want assurances that it'll never happen again. I couldn't possibly believe them. What I'm looking for is an understanding on  both our parts of what was lacking and what we need to work on going forward.

(In the example presented by the OP, the training of the other submissive would be the actual lie. What we'd be discussing though is the fact that he didn't feel he could tell me he was attracted to someone else in addition to me, why he didn't feel he could tell me and what, if anything, I might have done to set that belief up as well as what his actions have done to our relationship and what each of us need going forward)

From then on, it's just time spent as we work on those things. This kind of stuff takes time - a LOT of time, and in truth, does set up a fear that never really go away altogether, but when we've had to do this, instead of it being a death knell for the relationship, what it's signaled is actually a strengthening of our common purpose. We've discovered we can weather what has done in so many and that we've weathered it well. 

We've discovered that a part of the process of dealing with the fear is to acknowledge it and not give it the power to destroy. From my end, I've learned the fine art of "wait and see" without allowing the fear to overcome and destroy everything (and admittedly, that's sometimes very difficult, but so far, so good.). We've learned that we're not our past relationships and that silence is the killer, not the fear and we act accordingly - without rancor and without accusations and/or defensiveness - to the best of our abilities.

As a result of a lie, I've taken him off his pedestal so that he can be human, not some sort of pretend demi-god who never makes mistakes. He's elevated me in terms of the respect he has for me because I didn't yell and scream (although crying did occur), I didn't back down and I didn't immediately throw in the towel. I wasn't giving up on him and more importantly, I wasn't giving up on us. I didn't accept excuses and defenses and I didn't focus on the actual lie - although I made it more than clear that I would never accept this happening again. He didn't blame me, he didn't expect me to accept lame excuses and as we came to understand things more, he didn't promise me the world but he made it more than clear that he understood. And then... we proved to each other that what we said meant something to us and have so far, lived up to the results of those many conversations. Along the way, I discovered that I rather like men/dominants who can say "I made a mistake" much more than those who proclaim "I never make mistakes."

And to those who equate one lie with somehow becoming some lower life form, more than being perfect, what I want to see in a "true" dominant is his ability to step up and responsibly deal with the consequences of his actions - the good and the bad - whatever they may be. To me, that's the mark of a "true" dominant, and more importantly, that's the mark of a good man.

juliet




KnightofMists -> RE: A question of forgiveness (6/8/2008 11:51:41 AM)

juliet.... all I can say is what wonderful post.




Maestro66babycak -> RE: A question of forgiveness (6/8/2008 2:46:45 PM)

quote:

I didn't focus on the actual lie


Then what did you focus on?




Focus50 -> RE: A question of forgiveness (6/8/2008 3:32:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maestro66babycak

quote:

I didn't focus on the actual lie


Then what did you focus on?

Not just 'cause my ears were burning here, but....
 
I woulda thunk she was more focused on why he felt he needed to lie at all - that's the real betrayal....
 
Focus.




impossiblesub -> RE: A question of forgiveness (6/8/2008 4:06:23 PM)

 A true dominant would not lie as he calls the shots in the relationship unless he just did it on purpose to cause additional empotional pain.




Stusmobile -> RE: A question of forgiveness (6/8/2008 4:34:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wet4youruse

I was wondering how true dominants would answer this question:

If you lied to your sub/slave, hiding the fact that you were training another sub, knowing it hurt her deeply, would you (as a dominant man or woman) be able to ask her to forgive you or would you just expect her to 'get over it' ?

 (This is not my situation but the question stems from a conversation that I recently had with a Master here on collarme.)


If I lied over anything bigger than what I was buying her for her Birthday/Christmas present I'd be a piss poor human never mind a piss poor Dom.

As for asking forgiveness or telling her to get over it, neither, I'd be taking a long hard look in the mirror and asking myself just what the hell I wanted, how that meshes with what she wanted and whether there was any chance of continuing the relationship. Something as fundemental to a relationship as adding other parties would have been explored and talked about and an agreement made ..... and stuck to or the relationship ended before hand .... end of story. Taking another sub behind someones back is cheating, whether it was just training or full contact sex, the end result is the same.





julietsierra -> RE: A question of forgiveness (6/8/2008 6:03:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maestro66babycak

quote:

I didn't focus on the actual lie


Then what did you focus on?

Not just 'cause my ears were burning here, but....
 
I woulda thunk she was more focused on why he felt he needed to lie at all - that's the real betrayal....
 
Focus.

Pretty much.  Maestro66babycak, go back and read what I wrote again. I did explain exactly what I'd be focusing on. The lie is not the issue. The reasons behind a lie are always the issue. How we deal with those are what determines the success or failure of the relationship. We handled it well. We're still together. We're still strong. That's what matters the most.

And you're right Focus... it's by focusing on the actual issue that takes it from being a betrayal to being a mistake able to be overcome. Betrayals destroy. Mistakes can be the start of growth, of each of us individually and the relationship as a whole.

juliet




BBJKE -> RE: A question of forgiveness (6/8/2008 7:19:59 PM)

If I was to train another sub I would be upfront about it with my current sub and not hide it from her.  What a loser.




IronBear -> RE: A question of forgiveness (6/8/2008 8:39:58 PM)

Taking thius out of a M/s relationship and placing it in a general relationship area which includes marriage and then addressing it from my personal perspective and relationships. There has been and always been areas of my lifve especially when working which I will never share. There has been times when my rrelationship with my wife has been stretched because i was seen dri nking with a couple of girls. That both the girls were opperatives of mine and my association publically could not at the time be stated for their own safety, I havbe taken the attitude that if I say it is work then don't ask. I am aware thsat could and probably should raise red flags for most people and because of the secrecy of mych of what i was doing at the time it was instrumental of three marriages failing (al0ong with the facrt that I was at tiumes landig in hospital with injuries/wounds). Neets is a rare case for me, perhaps because she is an Army VBrat and possibly too because she has met a few pof the people I associated with and knew them by reputation and also because because a few others have and do run personal security for her at times that she accepts and trusts me. Again she reads people well and she knows that I woiuld no sooner cheat on her than she would on me. For me that trust will never be broken and we both agree that we play sexually with others it is within the home or with swinging friends, safe sex and we are open about it. Either of us can call a hold if something needs discussing.  My point is, I know there are members here who have undersover histories, others vbecause of work can not talk and in such cases of another person will not accept that they are not going to be told and persists, the choice is to either walk away or give the covering lie..

Iron Bear
Master of Bruin Cottage
(A Victorian Lifestyle poly home)

"I judge a Man by what I see him do and not by what others tell me he does."
(Captain Sir Edward Pellew of the HMS Indefatigable to Midshipman Hornblower ~ C.S. Forrester)





ThundersCry -> RE: A question of forgiveness (6/9/2008 9:14:39 AM)

From a man who left a wake of destruction behind and around me in the....past, I never had the balls to ask someone to....*forgive*...me. I stuggled with unbearable guilt/remorse for many...years because of *it*...
 
That was the easy way....out.
 
Now...to go to them face to face and ask...*What can I do to make this right*...Made much more sense to...me.
 
That put the responsability back on my...shoulders....where it needed to be.
 
How I avoided prison is baffeling, other than the fact men showed me....grace.
 
Forgiveness was never an easy thing for me to come to terms with, the concept was...foreign most of my life to me..KNOW matter what people told me about *it*...
 
It came down to a choice...either remain dead inside or...make a choice to begin to....forgive.
 
It began in my heart...thats where the change was and came....from. Slowly....painfully...
 
To live a life with deep resentment and unforgivness is really like....being a...dead man walking.
 
Good luck in your relationship/s....




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