RE: a touchy subject but need advice (Full Version)

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Treasure3 -> RE: a touchy subject but need advice (6/8/2008 9:20:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

I've read the whole thread but wanted to return to the original post. One thing that sociobiology has discovered is that many of us search for aspects of our parents in our partners. It seems as though both of you have been rather too successful in that ... you've both found people who raise the past spectre of weight issues. You've dealt with this before with a weight-obsessed parent and survived ... it doesn't seem that your Master has been quite so successful in escaping from His own experiences with His own esteem intact. Your being a bit overweight triggers off all of his insecurities ... which is why he ends up seemingly contradictory ... "I love you just the way you are but that is totally in conflict with how I view every other larger person". That, from personal experience, is hell to live with ... and I am much more than 20lb overweight. [An aside to those who love to blame fat people: And, it has nothing to do with acting like a pig, some of us have health issues that make it impossible to readily lose weight. It's the one part of My life over which I have never been in control, despite considerable knowledge in Human Biology and nutrition, and seeking any amount of medical advice over the years. The one diet from an endocrinologist that once caused Me to lose 84lb in 6 months never worked again (and neither has any other!) ... and I never felt in control of that loss just as I am not in control of the gain. While that diet successfully tricked My genes into permitting the weight loss ... they obviously hit the thrifty reset button! And other health issues from non weight-related injuries (car accidents) preclude sufficient exercise which might help. And no, I am not looking for yet more dietary advice!].

In My previous relationship, I was with a man for 12 years who had his own issues with weight and vanity, who preferred thinner girls but ostensibly fell in love with Me. I realise now I allowed his insecurities to be projected to a degree onto Me. When for multiple reasons it all ended, I asked him why, [knowing from his own admission that he was so resentful of the fact that I am clever, musically talented and far more popular than him despite being fat] ... why did he fall in love with Me? His answer chilled Me to the bone ... "you were the only one that bothered with me". Nothing about My personal qualities that might have attracted him ... only the fact that I had not kicked him to the kerb from the start, I had "bothered" with him. Essentially, all this time I was feeding his own insecurities while he was busy trying to tear Me down to his level. I know now he didn't really love ME ... not the personal Me, not Me the woman ... he loved having someone who would accept him with all his foibles, his cross-dressing obsession ... and who, he believed, made him look better (ie slimmer) by being so fat.

Now OP, I don't know the intricacies of your situation. I don't personally know your Master. But a lot of what you wrote resonated with Me. I wouldn't volunteer for those 12 years again ... and I wouldn't wish them on anyone else either. I know you don't want to consider leaving ... and fair enough, everyone deserves the opportunity to change themselves. But your Master has to be a lot more willing to discuss the issues (and His unwillingness to confront any touchy subject is core as others have suggested ... while the specific weight issue is a critical way in which that core problem is manifested) ... and while He has given you a suggested technique (and sure, you can try that), I agree that it is merely masking the problem not getting to the essence of it. I gave Mine 3 chances ... as in we restarted the relationship completely 3 times ... not sure I'd be so generous in hindsight. While I applaud your willingness to work at it ... you can't do ALL this work on your own ... don't for one minute let Him convince you that you can.

I sincerely wish you all the best.
Maam Jay aka violet[A]


Maam Jay, I truly appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts and experiences.  I have wondered several times now if my Master's wish to spend the vast majority of the time we have together alone and at home has something to do with perhaps feeling that my appearance does not reflect the image he wants.  He has stated that he prefers extremely thin women and is exceedingly concerned with how other people see him.  His home, car, and clothing all present the image that he wants people to have of him.  It isn't accurate, but it does allow him to feel successful.  His father's idea of an acceptable partner is thin, young, and beautiful.  While he loves me and professes to feel more comfortable and accepted when with me compared to any of his previous relationships, perhaps that isn't enough to counterbalance the need for acceptance and approval from his father.  If that is the case, will being patient and working diligently to try and resolve this issue and the other one about communication be enough?  One of the most important things I learned in breaking away from my own past was that I had to stop letting my desire to finally be loved and accepted for who I am by my mother be stronger than my desire to be comfortable and at peace with myself.  Until I came to a place where that was true in my heart, I was a slave to outside approval.



Treasure3 -> RE: a touchy subject but need advice (6/8/2008 9:28:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

 Any ideas?


First, it is seldom that I see personal issues brought to the board that are not full of drama.  My compliments of having the courage to share what you have and doing so in a very constructive manner.  I hope that the responses to you are done with an equal amount of consideration and thought that you have shown.

"He sees himself as twenty pounds or so overweight and is so self-conscious about it that he refuses to have full-length mirrors in his house."

It is clear from this statement that most of his views of others is a projection of his own feelings of self.  He has esteem issues and it might be that he is using weight as the scape goat.  I am curious, is he active in some sort of  exercise program etc to attempt to bring his weight down?  or do you find yourself confused about his view on his own weight but he isn't doing anything constructive about it?  If you find him obsessed with trying to deal with his weight issue, then it very likely he has certain deep seeded views on weight.  However, if he really isn't doing anything to get back in shape (assuming he was in shape at one point in his life)... then I have to wonder if there isn't more significant issues at work.  Was he in great shape in his younger days?  or was he always the heavy one and did he develop his opinions because his high school buddies in shape recieved what he want but never got.  Is he blaming his weight for what he never recieved and projecting this on the rest of the world?

"Personally, I believe that confidence and self-esteem play a MUCH larger role in how a person is perceived than weight does."

I completely agree with this comment.  However, when a person has a lack of confidence and a lack of self-esteem they tend to pick at things of themselves that reinforce the lack of confidence and lack of self-esteem.  It is a rather destructive cycle and it will affect their relationships. 

"His comments about other people lead me to wonder what he really thinks of me, and even though he assures me he loves me and would love me no matter what the scale said, I find myself asking why I'm any different than those he talks negatively about"

There is no easy answer with this and the logic of our question seems sound.  But instead of making it about you... about asking this question and see it changes your preception alittle and maybe allow you to see a solution.
   




"His comments about other people lead me to wonder what he really thinks of himself, who is also over weight?.  Why does he insist on holding on to a belief that is destructive to his own confidence and self-esteem?"


"I'm finding myself resenting and resisting his attempts to gently nudge me into losing weight.  I know he wants me to, even though he doesn't come out and make it an order.  I think it would almost be easier to deal with if it was an order, strange as that may sound.  Could I stand to lose a few pounds?  Sure.  But... I don't want to feel I have to lose weight for him to accept me.  Accept me as I am NOW and not for what my potential might be.  Does that make sense?

I have to wonder.. is his desire for you to loose weight a way for him to feel better of himself.  If you are skinny etc.. what does that say about himself?  This question is from his perspective.   I have to wonder if you loosing weight is a way for him to accept himself.  If there is some truth to this.... Then he is doomed to fail.  His confidence and self-esteem is not going to be improved by being dependent on someone else.. it will only be improved from within himself and not outwardly.  I can understand that you want him to accept you for you... but it seems that he isn't accept him for him...

"I'm afraid it will become a HUGE issue for us.  I would rather work it out now than to let it become the elephant in the living room.  "

I think you are right and to your credit you are trying to deal with it..  and it is not going to be easy. 


KnightofMists, thank you for your kind words.  I asked the question differently, as you suggested, and came up with what I just posted in response to MaamJay.  I'm not sure if it is the correct answer, but just changing the perspective allowed me to feel compassion where resentment and mistrust was before.  That alone is a positive change.

He doesn't go into much detail about that part of his past, only to say that he created a self-image for himself in high school, and he has declined to elaborate further on what that was.  It is a fact that his life dramatically changed between between high school and college and it is likely he will not ever get back to the way he was before.  Is it possible to help him realize that developing a new self-image is not a bad thing or is this a conclusion that he must come to on his own? 



agoodgirl4Daddy -> RE: a touchy subject but need advice (6/8/2008 10:01:30 AM)

I read through all the posts, and I never saw this suggestion.  Have you, Treasure3, suggested to your Master that you go to couples counseling?  There ARE kink friendly counselors out there, and your issue wouldn't be one that would require that anyway. 

I believe that this problem is both of yours, though YOU are the one who is bringing it to the table.  You've told him how you feel when he brings up your weight, but he continues to do it anyway.  This is disrespectful in my opinion.  Also, has your physician told you to lose weight for a medical condition? 

I understand that this issue goes far deeper than just about losing 20lbs to please your Master who prefers emaciated (you said "very thin") women. 

Being accepted as one is ....  warts and all.  Not to just be tolerated or to settle for someone just b/c they give you the time of day and put up with all your warts.  But full ACCEPTANCE.  That to me is what your post is really saying. 

It's been 2 years.  He doesn't accept you as you are.  Will he ever?  That's not something that you can manipulate.  He either will..or he won't.  And his issues with weight and wanting a partner to reflect them will need to be worked through to get there.  There's nothing that you can do ...  other than suggest he work on himself and his own issues (i.e., through professional counseling). 

Couples counseling may also help you two sort it out and set some boundaries.  Still the underlying question of and fear of whether he TRULY TRULY ACCEPTS you..will still be there.  The reality is..we don't HAVE to have the full acceptance of everyone in our lives to be whole, worthwhile beings.  However, in a relationship, it's something that many (including myself) desire.  Best wishes to you!!!  Hang in there!!



firefey -> RE: a touchy subject but need advice (6/8/2008 10:06:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Treasure3

quote:

ORIGINAL: firefey

a few things i would like to explore with this topic.  number one, he is right in the most general sence of the word.  studies have shown that "attractive" people are more successful.  they are also more self assured and confident.  but it's a chicken/egg situation.  are the "attractive" people more successful because they are confident or are they more successful because they are "attractive"?  i would hazard to guess that confidence and success are the commonalities.  not success and attractivness, which is SO subjective anyway.

which brings me to number two.  what we, and here i mean society in general, deffine as attractive has changed drasticly in the last fifty years.  but lucky for us girls with curves, the pendulum seems to be heading back to center.  slowly, but surely.  unfortunetly the ideal of thinness is vastly out of proportion with what is healthy, and most people who are focused on being thin are focused on the body mass index.  which is the more retarded index ever created.  imo.  i could say more about it, but i don't know that many curse words.  the BMI is grossly inaccureate and most people, were they to follow their recommendation, would be gaunt and sickly.  education about what is an actualy health wieght might be needed here.  for you more than him.  you need to know these things so that you are armed for the comming conversation.

lastly, he does need to be doing something about his wieght if he is going to be so critical of others.  asside from working on chaning his pedjudices here, and they are just as though he were racist or sexist he needs to understand that, perhaps you could step in and assist.  you mention that you visit him.  how often do these visits happen?  would it be workable for you to help him with health eating habits?  would it be workable for you to come up with an activities routine you could both do together.  walks or roller blading, or whatever you enjoy.  and lastly, do you compliment him on how he looks?  do you tell him when you see him that you find him attractive?  or if his appearence has changed to you mention it?  i'm not saying you need to feed his ego, but rather if he is going to make the transition to a more health attitude about wieght and his own self worth, you will need to support him.  perhaps sharing with him where you were and what you had to do to become happy in your skin?



As for helping him with his eating habits, he is a vegitarian and into all kinds of herbal medicine and supplements.  The activity is what I think might be the most helpful, but he is the one in charge of what we do when I visit, and if he isn't feeling up to being out and about or whatever, what do I do? 

Complimenting him... that made me stop and think.  I compliment on the things *I* notice the most.  I tell him how much I love his eyes and his smile, his voice, the way he makes me feel, how his new shirt really brings out the blue in his eyes, that kind of thing.  He does ask me quite often if his belly looks smaller or if his arms look bigger.  Those just aren't the things that I notice.  Maybe I should work on that, but honestly, I feel as if commenting on his belly or whatever when I already feel he is just fine and not overweight is just perpetuating the cycle of him being hard on himself and trying to work for outside approval when I really want to see him learn to find approval within himself.  Maybe I should just go with it?


i'm thinking here that subtle is your friend.  if you suggest that you want to start say, walking or roller blading or whatever, and that you really want him to do it with you maybe he would be more open to doing it as a couple.  as for the looking for outside approval.... not a psychologist so this is just imo. it seems to me that the damage was done from the outside and worked its way in.  you are 100% correct that in the end he must find a way to approve of himself, but that isn't liekly to happen without exterior influences.  perhaps research into body dismorphic disorder would be helpful for finding hints.  you mentioned his being a vegitarian, which is one way of going for health eating.  but what is his water consumption like?  how much butter, cream and cheese is he consuming?  is he getting enough of the right kind of nutrients to allow his body to properly use all his caloric intake?

another thought i'm having, you say he keeps asking about his belly or his arms.  and you tend to compliment him on his eyes or his overall looks.  but when people talk about thin people, it's said they have a great body.  fat people, they have a pretty face.  i'm not suggesting you are doing this, by no means, but perhaps this is the frame of mind he's hearing it from.

ultimately, you must decide how much you are willing to do here.  from what you say, he has a deep rooted issue with himself and others.  you may not be able to fix this without professional help.



LadyNlace -> RE: a touchy subject but need advice (6/8/2008 10:27:43 AM)

Yes, sociaty does see weight as a handicap. Im a succesful auther, I train animals (big ones) I ride horses.. and do all sorts of things "fat" people don't do.. but as posted by others there is a diffrence between heavy and healthy. So.. did fat interfear with my success? Some would argue no, some would say if I was thinner I would do even better.. but that is oppinion.. and I use this simpoly becuse most heavy people are not in jobs that require them to be physically active.. Not for any other reason..

It sounds like your Master has issues of his own. Was he the fat kid in school? What makes him have a phobia about weight?
This may not be an issue you can cure in him... subs are not here to fix or repair thier Dominates. You can't train your dom.. He has to master him, be for he can guide and master you.

Ms Jewel



TorridAffair -> RE: a touchy subject but need advice (6/8/2008 10:44:43 AM)

Well she has stated clearly to him that she does not want to be told about her weight, yet he continues to violate her boundary.  I am not so concerned about whether he wants to be told he is projecting.  He needs to be told he is projecting and that he is violating a boundary she set for him.  If it upsets him when she deflects back, maybe he will learn not to do it anymore...kind of like a punishment.  This truly is the most loving thing for her to do for him and their relationship.  If he does not realize his own issues and deal with them directly, he will suffer greatly for the rest of his life.  And, if he continues to project them onto his submissive, he may loose a relationship that he values deeply.



TorridAffair -> RE: a touchy subject but need advice (6/8/2008 10:50:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Treasure3

quote:

ORIGINAL: TorridAffair

I am so overwhelmed by how much we women suffer over weight...and more and more men are as well.  It seems clear to me that your Master is projecting his own issues about his own weight and body onto you as you said he can't even look in the mirror at himself.  One way to handle that is by deflecting it right back to him ... just like if you had Wonder Woman's bracelettes on.  Here is an example:
Master: "Slave you look as though you have gained a couple of pounds."
Slave possible answers:
"Master are you feeling bloated today?"
"Master I am sorry you are feeling heavier than normal."
"You too, Master, look like you have put on a few pounds."
"Master please tend to your issues about your body asap, they are negatively impacting me."
I send you lots of girl power, love, and acceptance of your beautiful curves.  [:)]



Thank you for your post, TorridAffair.  I have a question for you.  Would the answers you suggested not further inflame the situation?  I can see how they would be helpful if the other person had stated they wanted to be told when they were projecting their feelings, but, in the absense of such a desire, would it still be productive?


If he were literally throwing his shit all over her after she had clearly stated no scat play, would you be concerned about whether he wanted to know he was projecting his shit onto her if I told her to use a shield that made his shit bounce back onto him?



chickpea -> RE: a touchy subject but need advice (6/8/2008 10:58:50 AM)

People who are overweight, I think it's a health issue no matter what.  I mean, it's been proven that the extra weight you carry does negatively impact your health in general, also the amount of energy you have.  I think weight can serve as an emotional crutch as well.  Those with more weight, it's an easy way to deal with negative emotions and as the weight they carry can "numb" how they feel or any negative emotions.  Then the more weight, the less energy.  Then the less they do, then that gets depressing.  A vicious cycle.  Anyway, if you were born to be overweight, well it's more important on how you carry yourself (what you think about yourself), and if you're putting your best effort to look your best and think your best...like that other post was saying, said i'm a sexy bitch.  lol. 

If it's about vanity and having a certain look (that's often rare), that's a necessity to be in a relationship with someone, then it's time to move on if there's not much else to the relationship.  Trying to change for someone, plus something that's impossible, sets yourself up for dissappointment..and emotional disaster.  I mean how many women can fit in size 0 or 2?  Just the god-dam media being controlled by men, and using it like a carrot in the stick.  And who wouldn't believe everything seen on T.V. and magazines is true?  It's not like they haven't invented editing yet...  *snarf*  Women will never measure up, be constantly at a disadvantage, unless they become unconscious half their waking life, and can only have energy to get up twice in a day to go to the bathroom.  Men can constantly point to the T.V. screen and say see?  why don't you be like THAT?  Ohhh the shame.

To the OP, he seems pretty compassionate, non-abusive/sensitive to your feelings, and may be worth keeping putting in some effort to please, just for his sake?  I mean how many guys would drag you to the gym and yell run?  Yet, he chooses to not excercise his power (the Dom) and kindly nudges you to loose weight?  Perhaps he remembered the harsh treatment from his family and doesn't want you to be treated as he was?  Treats you as a precious person...  But still was sort of raised to look at weight being linked to something good about a person? 



KnightofMists -> RE: a touchy subject but need advice (6/8/2008 11:44:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Treasure3

KnightofMists, thank you for your kind words. 


thank you ... I found the sincerity and honesty of your words to be inspiring.

quote:


I asked the question differently, as you suggested, and came up with what I just posted in response to MaamJay.  I'm not sure if it is the correct answer, but just changing the perspective allowed me to feel compassion where resentment and mistrust was before.  That alone is a positive change.


I am very happy to here of this positive change..... In short.... instead of seeing "Him" as the problem.  It is the conditioning that he has received that is the problem....   Your change of mind set is helping to  bring him and you together to look at the issue instead of letting it divide the two of you.

quote:


He doesn't go into much detail about that part of his past, only to say that he created a self-image for himself in high school, and he has declined to elaborate further on what that was.  It is a fact that his life dramatically changed between between high school and college and it is likely he will not ever get back to the way he was before.  Is it possible to help him realize that developing a new self-image is not a bad thing or is this a conclusion that he must come to on his own? 


It is both possible to help him to realize this answer as well as coming to this realization on his own. You are walking this issue together and need not let it divide you.

lastly... all I can say is..... "water washes away a mountain a grain of sand at a time"  You both need to be the water!  the conditioning is that mountain... and him sharing a part of the past is a few grains of sand being washed away.



Icarys -> RE: a touchy subject but need advice (6/8/2008 12:16:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TorridAffair

quote:

ORIGINAL: Treasure3

quote:

ORIGINAL: TorridAffair

I am so overwhelmed by how much we women suffer over weight...and more and more men are as well.  It seems clear to me that your Master is projecting his own issues about his own weight and body onto you as you said he can't even look in the mirror at himself.  One way to handle that is by deflecting it right back to him ... just like if you had Wonder Woman's bracelettes on.  Here is an example:
Master: "Slave you look as though you have gained a couple of pounds."
Slave possible answers:
"Master are you feeling bloated today?"
"Master I am sorry you are feeling heavier than normal."
"You too, Master, look like you have put on a few pounds."
"Master please tend to your issues about your body asap, they are negatively impacting me."
I send you lots of girl power, love, and acceptance of your beautiful curves.  [:)]



Thank you for your post, TorridAffair.  I have a question for you.  Would the answers you suggested not further inflame the situation?  I can see how they would be helpful if the other person had stated they wanted to be told when they were projecting their feelings, but, in the absense of such a desire, would it still be productive?


If he were literally throwing his shit all over her after she had clearly stated no scat play, would you be concerned about whether he wanted to know he was projecting his shit onto her if I told her to use a shield that made his shit bounce back onto him?




That may sound logical to but it's far from productive..advocating that they both go at it till someone stops isn't healthy either..what he's doing isn't proper but neither is this..yes he does have the problem..20lbs is not a problem to me..the fact that he's wanting her to loose the weight isn't the problem..it's his choice as her Master..i personally don't agree with his methods but she isn't mine either.i personally wouldn't pick on you about it..you i'd set up a program for you to loose the weight (reward/punishment) and work from there..he's just going about it in a bad way..not the end of the world..

it most likely would inflame the situation..

We as Master aren't perfect either..we do make mistakes in life(a wide variety of them)
i see in a lot of profiles saying "i want a this or that but a Human Being first"..well this is part of being that human..we have good and bad in us..being able to put yourself in the others shoes will go along way..

safe journey



Silkendream -> RE: a touchy subject but need advice (6/14/2008 7:28:31 PM)

He will keep doing this as long as you allow him to.  i was in a similar situation and the only thing that shut him up and forced him to examine what he was doing, was by literally turning the tables on him and every time he said something to me, i simply made a corresponding remark back about his weight.  Then, when he blanched, i said 'not so funny when its coming in your direction, is it'.  He soon stopped.  Its also a good way to get your self-esteem back.  Time to get tough!



mistressverahal -> RE: a touchy subject but need advice (6/15/2008 6:04:59 AM)

I think you really need to talk to someone



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